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Post by khalfie on Jul 27, 2007 21:35:00 GMT -6
Thats exactly why it was started.. lol Khal - You are busted! Everyone else is on to your game now! ;D Dude... I've got moves... you think its that easy... just call me out and I'm defeated... Watch this... I just saw the Simpsons...
And I admit, it was funny...
Had my 5, 7, and 9 year old with me... and it was cutting edge with the adult risque vs the kiddy jokes...
Not to ruin it for anyone... but there was full frontal nudity... heavy cursing... a sex scene... racial jokes...
And wait a minute... what's this... yup, you guessed it... ANIMAL CRUELTY!
I'm not saying the Simpson's were making a political stance against the kangaroo court attacking Vick... but they could have been!
1. Scene one: Homer saves a pig from being butchered by Krusty the Klown... he then loves the pig... he wanted to kiss the pig, after seeing a guy kissing a horse on tv... ANIMAL CRUELTY!
2. Maggie Simpson: shatters her baby bottle to create a weapon... to fight a monkey! ANIMAL CRUELTY!
3. Homer fought a Bear, who fought a beaver!
4. Homer, used a bunch of dogs for an Iditarod... hitting them with a whip, beating them until they almost died... ANIMAL CRUELTY...
And what about the Iditarod people... do you know how many dogs freeze, die of starvation, are beaten, and trained to carry a dude across the frozen tundra for sport?
Where's your jail sentence for the Iditarod abusers? Righhttt... subjective legislation regarding which animals can be treated poorly...
In conclusion... besides the racial jokes... the Simpsons had me laughing out loud... and made a very poignant commentary on ANIMAL CRUELTY.
Thank-you... thank-you... I'll be here all evening!
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Post by khalfie on Jul 27, 2007 21:39:01 GMT -6
Grand juries convict 95% of indictments, and thats quite a bit higher than vick's career completion percentage. Way to put it to Vick... whoa... you told him... And by the way... who has a 95% completion rate? Riiiggghhhttt! And here's the injustice, at its most abhorent and apparent case... My wife is an attorney... When the Fed's take over a case, 99% of the time the state recinds their charges, and allows for the Fed to handle it... In Vicks case... The Fed indicted first, and then the STate decided to pile on... THIS ALMOST NEVER HAPPENS! Justice system? or JUST US SYSTEM! I'm just sayin'
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Post by khalfie on Jul 27, 2007 21:40:26 GMT -6
I am in the 7% minority that doesn't get outraged when pit-bulls are trained to fight and are put down. I know, I know, my wife has already threatened to divorce me on this topic and it's not the common view. I simply don't understand the outrage and anger. So, there you go... I took the bait. I'm not a hunter, a farmer who puts dogs in a bag to drown them, a foriegnor who eats them, an animal abuser, nor would do it myself but it just doesn't bother me for some reason. What does bother me is Vick's poor choices as a role model to kids, to go against the status quo and be involved in such taboo activity. One day i'm having a talk to my kid about Chris Benoit, then Bonds, and the next about Vick. What role model's actions will I be smoothing over tomorrow or in the future? All of them, eventually? Answer: Probably my own son's as an inevitable product of his environment, like his role models. I should add before I get attacked by the other 93% majority that I was mauled by a dog when I was little that hadn't been trained to fight. Maybe that has something to do with my indifference. It's the recent endless onslaught of anti-heroes, however, that bothers me the most. And their indifference, not to animals, but to kids and humanity. This may be the most eloquent and well thought out post of this thread... Great job Coachjim... once again you have shown to be a true unbiased voice of reason!
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Post by blackfly73 on Jul 27, 2007 21:53:10 GMT -6
I am in the 7% minority that doesn't get outraged when pit-bulls are trained to fight and are put down. I know, I know, my wife has already threatened to divorce me on this topic and it's not the common view. I simply don't understand the outrage and anger. So, there you go... I took the bait. I'm not a hunter, a farmer who puts dogs in a bag to drown them, a foriegnor who eats them, an animal abuser, nor would do it myself but it just doesn't bother me for some reason. What does bother me is Vick's poor choices as a role model to kids, to go against the status quo and be involved in such taboo activity. One day i'm having a talk to my kid about Chris Benoit, then Bonds, and the next about Vick. What role model's actions will I be smoothing over tomorrow or in the future? All of them, eventually? Answer: Probably my own son's as an inevitable product of his environment, like his role models. I should add before I get attacked by the other 93% majority that I was mauled by a dog when I was little that hadn't been trained to fight. Maybe that has something to do with my indifference. It's the recent endless onslaught of anti-heroes, however, that bothers me the most. And their indifference, not to animals, but to kids and humanity. I'll take the bait too because this really is an important social topic. Let's be honest... IT IS ILLEGAL. Plain and Simple. We may like to drive 85 mph on the Interstate, we might think we should be able to... but when the state police pull you over; what you THINK doesn't matter. The law is pretty plain - whether it is a sub-culture or not... it's ILLEGAL. I highly doubt he knew NOTHING about all this happening on his property. Apparently 60+ dogs, and dog-fighting stuff as well. There's a pretty established link between those who abuse animals and those who abuse or TOLERATE the abuse of people. it's akin to those who think it is fine to drink (or do drugs) excessively around their children - it perpetuates a culture and mindset that is frankly disgusting. I'm personally disgusted by someone who would tolerate this, regardless if they've been attacked by a dog in the past. Are there worse problems out there in the world - YES. But the man seems to have broken the law... so let's not complain and cry when he's caught, tried and sentenced.
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Post by coachjim on Jul 28, 2007 4:09:00 GMT -6
Thanks Khalfie! I wasn't expecting that. I was anticipating more of what I got from Blackfly; hatred and disgust.
To Blackfly: You are probably correct on one point. He seems to be indifferent to both, perhaps one indifference leading to another. I think we will both agree, though, you are a coach and not a therapist with the education to back this up. It's your opinion.
Re: Your disgust (which I tried but can't ignore)... I'd rather be indifferent than an extremist. It's the extemists you have to worry about in this world and those that like to dictate the actions of others based on emotional differences or issues. Especially on a topic that someone of a different culture, subculture, or time period would disagree with you on. Unless... you claim to speak for other cultures... and the past, which is typical of extremist viewpoints. You forget, the first tools, were for hunting and they look pretty crude (hammers?.) If you are religious, reread Genesis regarding God's intention for animals and man... and not to mention... all the animals that didn't make it onto the ark. Weren't all but two of every species purposely drowned in the flood, innocent of any crime of they're own doing by God, himself? Was he setting a bad example for the future? Judge God, if you dare.
Finally, one last interesting paradox. Do you fish? Catch and release? And... what about the worm? The poor thing. I can feel the contradictions in your argument mounting... what about the rawhide football you use? Know where it comes from? Buy fur for the wife, go hunting? Mow the lawn? I can hear the insect world crying out as I write this.
Extremists are the ones that see humanity as animals and have the greater propensity to do them harm. Not the indifferents.
Personally, I don't mind sitting on indifference. It just seems saner than disgust, "akin" to hatred, the worst of all human emotions.
What I DO agree with, is how this and other recent news headlines will affect our kids and the growing trend of irresponsibility by their role models. That was my point which you skimmed right over.
If nothing else, speaking of "taking the bait," just answer the fish question... I can't wait to hear your "opinion" on that.
Sincerely, Coach Jim
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smd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 211
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Post by smd on Jul 28, 2007 7:42:39 GMT -6
worm + hook + lake = fish (food) pitbull + pitbull = Money you are comparing pitbull fighting to God's work in the Bible? Just us justice... thats funny. but a typical response. support is basically broken down by color of skin: 1.) white: some will say that he is guilty, some will say that the justice system is out to get him because he is black, some will say to wait for the justice to be served. 2.) black: he is innocent because he is black and the white justice system is trying to bring down a prominent black athlete. and will try to justify his actions. i am in the let the courts sort out the details before comment about his involvement. coachjm, great point about the role model aspect of it. that was right on target.
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Post by khalfie on Jul 28, 2007 8:35:07 GMT -6
worm + hook + lake = fish (food) pitbull + pitbull = Money you are comparing pitbull fighting to God's work in the Bible? Just us justice... thats funny. but a typical response. support is basically broken down by color of skin: 2.) black: he is innocent because he is black and the white justice system is trying to bring down a prominent black athlete. and will try to justify his actions. Wow... that's very conservative of you... A group of Black folks Vick has supported, bought school supplies for, air conditioners, food, come out to support him... and now its all Black folks support Vick? Nevermind the legions of Black announcers and sports commentators that have often said it is apparent he's guilty, and if convicted should pay pennance... Way to paint with the broad brush... I think this is... how the media makes it a white v black issue... just ignore the black folks that don't fit the generalization...
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Post by blackfly73 on Jul 28, 2007 14:39:38 GMT -6
Re: Your disgust (which I tried but can't ignore)... I'd rather be indifferent than an extremist. It's the extemists you have to worry about in this world and those that like to dictate the actions of others based on emotional differences or issues. Especially on a topic that someone of a different culture, subculture, or time period would disagree with you on. Unless... you claim to speak for other cultures... and the past, which is typical of extremist viewpoints. You forget, the first tools, were for hunting and they look pretty crude (hammers?.) If you are religious, reread Genesis regarding God's intention for animals and man... and not to mention... all the animals that didn't make it onto the ark. Weren't all but two of every species purposely drowned in the flood, innocent of any crime of they're own doing by God, himself? Was he setting a bad example for the future? Judge God, if you dare. So... you don't judge other cultures? So I suppose it is perfectly alright then to kill those of different beliefs - or throw acid on the faces of women who look the wrong way (this DOES happen in some cultures). I'm not an extremist... I just fail to support CRUELTY in any form. An extremist is one who uses BELIEF to support a viewpoint which doesn't tolerate other's beliefs. I find a distinct difference is hunting or fishing... than in essentially torturing something to death.
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Post by tiger46 on Jul 28, 2007 15:44:44 GMT -6
SMD, Wow. At least you gave whites multiple choices. I see that you believe all black people think alike and only gave us one conclusion that all black people will come to. Of course, it doesn't matter what anyone of any color thinks unless they're on the jury. We're all just stating our opinions; which we are entitled to do. Maybe you didn't read the entire thread and you missed my post. I don't give a rat's @$$ that if whomever is guilty of dogfighting is named Michael Vick, what color their skin is or, their economic status. It is morally and legally wrong, imo. And, I don't care who thinks that I am an extremist for having that opinion. Hell, I'm not even afraid of that label. I'm extremely against fighting dogs to the death for monetary gain and some sort of social status. I hope whoever is guilty of the crime gets the maximum sentence regardless of who they are or what they do for a living. I don't know who is and who is not guilty of what crimes. I have a hunch that Vick had some degree of involvement or, at least, had some knowledge of what was going on. But, to my knowledge, my hunches never meant anything in a court of law. Hopefully, the guilty will be sentenced. Btw, I am black.
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smd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 211
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Post by smd on Jul 28, 2007 17:12:55 GMT -6
tiger67, i just wrote what i have read, seen, and heard about the subject. in hind sight, i shouldn't have written as you say a with a broad brush.
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crl
Junior Member
Pick me , pick me... I want to be on the RNC location scout team.
Posts: 476
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Post by crl on Jul 29, 2007 1:48:16 GMT -6
RICO LAW; they found the smart one who will cop a plea. Now Number 7 is done. In the next weeks Feds will establish Conspiracy, Racketeering Charges, 1.Gambling 2.and transport of illegal substance- ie... Money/Dogs(no taxes paid on organized betting/Dogs for willful uses against State and Federal Laws)using Corporation/Partnerships- ie. Bad Newz Kennels and V7 limited. and possible Cover up of investigation at County and State levels in Virgina-@ K guy...The main Reason the Feds were involved and the State case was taken- its called "Failure to adjudicate Justice"- Funny thing this is the Civil Rights Statue to help the Activists get Justice in the South in the 60´s...upheld by the supreme court and lead to the conviction of the White Supremacists.
Where do you think the Feds got the low down, the squeezed the Virgina State Prosecutor Office as well they should have.
Now they have the solid on Number 7, watch as his Homeys cut deals and leave their best Friend, who as quote by Falcons Owner" I have to keep it real" when told to stop hanging with known Thugs.
Hey he may Cop a Plea, but then he is guilty. Good bye- Nike, Good bye- Falcons(by the way who will contest contract in court, little clause in all contracts in NFL, the Joe Namath Clause: will not associate with known criminals)and win, they have guilty pleas! Good-bye Money, lawyers of this caliber cost a mint plus law suits brought on by PETA and other Animal activists, an old trick that Green Peace uses, summons you to death. Number 7 is done, hey maybe he can Coach at his Beloved College, or go to REHAB.
PS . Hopefully he was not involved with any dealing with Drugs, under RICO Law, alll they have to prove is intent. Then he will have the John Gotti Suite for at least 5 years.
Justice. The Law will runs its course.
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Post by coachjim on Jul 29, 2007 20:33:07 GMT -6
Blackfly, no I don't judge other cultures. In philosophy 101 I read a great book called "Sharpening one's sword." It was an analogy based on the Samurai who used to go from mountain top to mountain top, chopping off each other's heads. The premise of the book (I forget the author's name) was basically that you can never judge another culture unless you are a part of it; you can never truly understand. Like trying to justify chopping off each others heads and ritualistic suicide. It was a different culture and time, one we can never hope to understand and in this day and age, justify. Regarding the rest, I don't condone cruelty either, although I can't see sending someone to jail for a long time for it when it involves animals and not humans. I said from the beginning that I was in the 7% minority and was fully anticipating a barrage of criticism. I should commend you on not getting bent out of shape and continuing to provide a good opposing argument (without taking off the gloves.) I was expecting a sharp retort but you kept it professional. Regarding throwing acid in a woman's face. Obviously, now we are straying into human strife which I will never understand or can even fathom, but have to admit, its not my culture or place for an opinion. As with the Samurai, the Crusades, or fishing. Only God knows the answers... and i'm just a youth football coach. Other than the comments on race, I am thoroughly enjoying all of the different views from all different angles including yours. No hard feelings. I do have to agree with the law being the law, however, so you got me there. By the way, did you say whether or not you fish? Still curious, where you draw the line.
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dq
Sophomore Member
Posts: 156
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Post by dq on Jul 29, 2007 23:33:30 GMT -6
Vick must be near retarded to have purposely developed land for illegal activity
thinking he wouldn't get caught. One of the highest paid most visible athletes in the world
thought he could get away with it. Gangstas don't get away, they don't multiple, the go to
prison or die or shot and paralyzed. I've known a few( have known, R.I.P.) Man look i love watching superman play football as much
as the next man but the Dude is Throwed. Not just b/c of the dogs but b/c of his delusional
behavior. I'll miss watching LB's run into each other but 'Okie' brought this on himself.
Pray for the dude, he needs all the help he can get, those Fed's are trying to Lynch him.
OH, and the last time i checked the US is not a 3rd world country I'm almost certain that has some baring on why we don't eat Lassie, Hooch, Air Bud or that Taco Bell Dog
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Post by coachmoore42 on Jul 29, 2007 23:38:55 GMT -6
This topic has gotten very heated...the countdown to locked thread begins in 3...2...1...
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Post by blackfly73 on Jul 30, 2007 7:56:50 GMT -6
Blackfly, no I don't judge other cultures. In philosophy 101 I read a great book called "Sharpening one's sword." It was an analogy based on the Samurai who used to go from mountain top to mountain top, chopping off each other's heads. The premise of the book (I forget the author's name) was basically that you can never judge another culture unless you are a part of it; you can never truly understand. Like trying to justify chopping off each others heads and ritualistic suicide. It was a different culture and time, one we can never hope to understand and in this day and age, justify. Regarding the rest, I don't condone cruelty either, although I can't see sending someone to jail for a long time for it when it involves animals and not humans. I said from the beginning that I was in the 7% minority and was fully anticipating a barrage of criticism. I should commend you on not getting bent out of shape and continuing to provide a good opposing argument (without taking off the gloves.) I was expecting a sharp retort but you kept it professional. Regarding throwing acid in a woman's face. Obviously, now we are straying into human strife which I will never understand or can even fathom, but have to admit, its not my culture or place for an opinion. As with the Samurai, the Crusades, or fishing. Only God knows the answers... and i'm just a youth football coach. Other than the comments on race, I am thoroughly enjoying all of the different views from all different angles including yours. No hard feelings. I do have to agree with the law being the law, however, so you got me there. By the way, did you say whether or not you fish? Still curious, where you draw the line. It's all good. I don't fish - I have in the past, but it's not something I enjoy very much (I also don't like the taste of fish very much). Perhaps I am just not that patient, but I prefer diving and viewing them that way. From the argument of the worm though - from a Biological (my degree) standpoint the worm freally doesn't have a central nerovus system, and does not have the same types of neurons that conduct 'pain' sensations in "higher" animals, nor does it have a cerebral cortex to process the stimuli. Hence it probably doesn't feel pain. I do think we all judge other cultures from an overt or covert standpoint. Would you not agree that MOST societies tend to abide by some common moral/ethical code? Some of the trappings may be different, but its there. IMO there are some terrible traditions in some cultures and as a human being they're wrong (the Hindu Caste system, child soldiers, etc). I think it's wrong what goes on in dogfighting - I suspect many do as well. It's also quite a stretch to extrapolate that into fishing, or food. IMO that's what an extremist does - sees the world in only black and white. Neither of us are that.
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dq
Sophomore Member
Posts: 156
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Post by dq on Jul 30, 2007 8:49:01 GMT -6
At this point, as coaches, think about the Kids we all coach. We
all have these great kids on our teams that we know, good and
well, have worthless parents which equals no positive role
model at home. I had a role model and it wasn't my father or
mother, i was lucky my Uncle who was 18 at the time decided to
take care of another mans child. Our players love this guy, hell i
love watching this guy, but as a Shepard of my flock, at home
and the young men God has blessed me with the opportunity to
Love, help raise and coach i make no excuses for any man who
does wrong no matter the color. There is a race line where I'm at
( school and community) so i fight against it every day. Our
player are bombarded all day every day with the message that
What the Ball Coach is saying is a waste of time : discipline,
teamwork, accountability to your team, school and community,
that hard work pays off, and to dream big IE the Rings we all
want to ware. Everything we teach is great and noble (those
coaches that do it right). I personally will not let my kids see me
justify any of Vick's actions that have been deemed illegal. I will
however explain that we should not hate the man but hated the
actions and explain to my players that people have the ability to
change and grow and that if they truly care for Vick pray for Him.
My mother is black father white, i grew up with both families and
love them equally, very much.
Malcolm & Martin would not have approved nor WEB Du Bois and
countless others that fought for our freedom & equality.
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crl
Junior Member
Pick me , pick me... I want to be on the RNC location scout team.
Posts: 476
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Post by crl on Jul 30, 2007 9:50:08 GMT -6
FYI: One guilty plea, with offer to cooperate with investigation. As the old LAUGH-IN TV show said "Here Comes THe Judge"!!!!!
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jul 30, 2007 10:27:41 GMT -6
I think our society has some major imbalances when:
Ray Lewis murders A HUMAN BEING, but receives NFL MVP afterward and Kobe Bryant rapes a HUMAN BEING and is adored by fans but Michael Vick is cruel TO AN ANIMAL and all hell breaks lose.
Hey I guess animals matter more than people in our society.
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Post by coachdawhip on Jul 30, 2007 10:43:09 GMT -6
I think our society has some major imbalances when:
Ray Lewis murders A HUMAN BEING, but receives NFL MVP afterward, UM NO HE DIDN"T, he has never on trial for murder, but for helping the "murders" leave the scene of a crime. and Kobe Bryant rapes a HUMAN BEING and is adored by fans, UM THAT WAS NEVER PROVED, EITHER but Michael Vick is cruel TO AN ANIMAL and all hell breaks lose, THAT HAS ALSO YET TO BE PROVEN
Hey I guess animals matter more than people in our society.
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