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Post by CS on Jan 28, 2022 19:31:13 GMT -6
Strictly mid-Winter tongue in cheek: Have each Head Coach square off at mid field. As determined by coin flip: They take turns kicking each other in the groin until one can't get up. I'd be inclined to win the toss, go on offense, take my best shot, and then forfeit. (sorry, it's Friday and I'm waiting for the adult beverages to kick in) Lol. Roshambeau |
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Post by bobgoodman on Jan 28, 2022 22:21:01 GMT -6
Same in high school. I do not like the 10. For two reasons. 1) It is actually hard to score from the 10. I think you would score more from the 15 since you can get a first down. But you still have to go 10 yards to do it. And then another 5. So why would you score more? |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 28, 2022 23:01:54 GMT -6
I think 8 minutes is a bit too short... I say playoffs play an extra quarter. It is the playoffs. NOBODY is complaining about having to play extra football in the playoffs I am fine with an extra 2 minutes. Or 4. |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 28, 2022 23:03:15 GMT -6
Same in high school. I do not like the 10. For two reasons. 1) It is actually hard to score from the 10. I think you would score more from the 15 since you can get a first down. But you still have to go 10 yards to do it. And then another 5. So why would you score more? Because you can get a first down. Who has access to analytics? Can someone look up expected score with 1st down on the 15 and first and goal on the 10? |
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Post by bobgoodman on Jan 29, 2022 8:02:07 GMT -6
But you still have to go 10 yards to do it. And then another 5. So why would you score more? Because you can get a first down. Who has access to analytics? Can someone look up expected score with 1st down on the 15 and first and goal on the 10? If offenses are scoring more from the 15 than from the 10, then something's wrong with how defenses play. You have 1st and goal from the 10. You go 10 yards, TD. If you'd been on the 15 with 1st and 10, you go 10 yards, all you get is the first down. Who could believe that a first down is better than a touchdown? Plus, if you were on the 15, you'd be a little farther for a field goal, and even if you were on the hash mark that makes the angle narrower. Suppose there were some reason teams were scoring more from the 15. Then the defense could always change to defending the 5 yard line like it's the goal line, and then it's like the opposing team is on the 10. Having the opponents on your 10 could never be better than having them on your 15. If that last 5 yards didn't help the defense, then we could save the real estate and shorten the distance between the goal lines to 90 yards. But then the very same thing could be said, so shorten it another 10 yards. And repeat the process until the field of play was only 10 yards long, and throw away the chains. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 29, 2022 8:37:14 GMT -6
Because you can get a first down. Who has access to analytics? Can someone look up expected score with 1st down on the 15 and first and goal on the 10? If offenses are scoring more from the 15 than from the 10, then something's wrong with how defenses play. You have 1st and goal from the 10. You go 10 yards, TD. If you'd been on the 15 with 1st and 10, you go 10 yards, all you get is the first down. Who could believe that a first down is better than a touchdown? Plus, if you were on the 15, you'd be a little farther for a field goal, and even if you were on the hash mark that makes the angle narrower. Suppose there were some reason teams were scoring more from the 15. Then the defense could always change to defending the 5 yard line like it's the goal line, and then it's like the opposing team is on the 10. Having the opponents on your 10 could never be better than having them on your 15. If that last 5 yards didn't help the defense, then we could save the real estate and shorten the distance between the goal lines to 90 yards. But then the very same thing could be said, so shorten it another 10 yards. And repeat the process until the field of play was only 10 yards long, and throw away the chains. I don't think I agree with Silkyice on this, but I believe what he is trying to say is that 1st and 10 from the 15 gives the offense 2 options for "success"- touchdown or firstdown, the latter giving them 4 more tries from 5 yards or less. |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 29, 2022 9:32:48 GMT -6
If offenses are scoring more from the 15 than from the 10, then something's wrong with how defenses play. You have 1st and goal from the 10. You go 10 yards, TD. If you'd been on the 15 with 1st and 10, you go 10 yards, all you get is the first down. Who could believe that a first down is better than a touchdown? Plus, if you were on the 15, you'd be a little farther for a field goal, and even if you were on the hash mark that makes the angle narrower. Suppose there were some reason teams were scoring more from the 15. Then the defense could always change to defending the 5 yard line like it's the goal line, and then it's like the opposing team is on the 10. Having the opponents on your 10 could never be better than having them on your 15. If that last 5 yards didn't help the defense, then we could save the real estate and shorten the distance between the goal lines to 90 yards. But then the very same thing could be said, so shorten it another 10 yards. And repeat the process until the field of play was only 10 yards long, and throw away the chains. I don't think I agree with Silkyice on this, but I believe what he is trying to say is that 1st and 10 from the 15 gives the offense 2 options for "success"- touchdown or firstdown, the latter giving them 4 more tries from 5 yards or less. You have a potential 8 plays from the 15. 4 from the 10. The 15 also gives you 5 more yards that the defense has to defend on a pass. Bob, do you really think that gaining 10 yards from the 15 to the 5 is the same difficultly as gaining 10 yards from the 10? And using you analogies, is gaining 10 from the 50 to the 40 the same difficulty as gaining 10 from the 10? Bob, not trying to be a punk, but do you coach? Have you called plays in these situations? Someone just look up the analytics. And I could be wrong about the 15 (don’t think I am), but what about the 12? |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 29, 2022 10:02:32 GMT -6
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 29, 2022 10:05:48 GMT -6
But anything first and goal from the 9 or closer was better than the 11-15.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 29, 2022 10:12:52 GMT -6
Someone just look up the analytics. And I could be wrong about the 15 (don’t think I am), but what about the 12? This is from 2010. Scroll down to expected points by 1st down field position. Look more at the blue diamonds (actual data) than the red curve (best fit line). You can clearly see where the 10 starts and it climbs. No one is going to dispute that the 9 is not better than the 10. Just eyeballing it, it looks like the 16 or 17 is the same as the 10, with the 11-15 higher. It would be great if someone can find something more recent with individual yard lines. I think that teams are MUCH more likely to go for it on 4th and 1 (or inches) from the 6 now than in 2010 which should raise the expected points from the 15. |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 29, 2022 10:16:16 GMT -6
This is awesome. Great find. I will argue that it is even higher now because current teams will rightly go for a first down on 4th and 1 (or inches) now from the 6 yard line. |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 29, 2022 10:17:39 GMT -6
If you are the actual play caller for your team, you get pissed for just a sec when you get first a goal at the 10. It is tough to score a TD from there!!
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 29, 2022 14:22:05 GMT -6
Regarding the NFL data on the 15 vs the 10- I am going to pull the "That's the NFL" card when discussing HS stuff. BUT it makes good sense if discussing the NFL (which this thread is BUT this side conversation was on changing HS overtime to the 15)
At The NFL defenses still have to defend the Bang 8, the corner Fade, and other quick and relatively easy scoring pass plays, along with other plays that can pick up the first down and give the Offense 4 plays from inside the 5.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 29, 2022 20:47:50 GMT -6
Regarding the NFL data on the 15 vs the 10- I am going to pull the "That's the NFL" card when discussing HS stuff. BUT it makes good sense if discussing the NFL (which this thread is BUT this side conversation was on changing HS overtime to the 15) At The NFL defenses still have to defend the Bang 8, the corner Fade, and other quick and relatively easy scoring pass plays, along with other plays that can pick up the first down and give the Offense 4 plays from inside the 5. But yet I 100% just off the top of my head guessed the 15 yard line and then said the 12 yard line was a for sure, just based off my experience as a play caller in high school. I had zero stats!! None. But I nailed it. Why? Experience. Not to be a butt, how much have you and Bob called plays? I have been doing it for 25 years. When was the last time you watched high school? Bang 8, corner fade, etc are all happening in high school. At least against the teams we play. Even the single wing team we played in the first round had a 6'7" kid they split out. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 29, 2022 21:33:28 GMT -6
Regarding the NFL data on the 15 vs the 10- I am going to pull the "That's the NFL" card when discussing HS stuff. BUT it makes good sense if discussing the NFL (which this thread is BUT this side conversation was on changing HS overtime to the 15) At The NFL defenses still have to defend the Bang 8, the corner Fade, and other quick and relatively easy scoring pass plays, along with other plays that can pick up the first down and give the Offense 4 plays from inside the 5. But yet I 100% just off the top of my head guessed the 15 yard line and then said the 12 yard line was a for sure, just based off my experience as a play caller in high school. I had zero stats!! None. And you still have zero stats-for HS. You have a lot of NFL stats. December. And ZERO of the bang 8s, corner fades etc were executed with ANYWHERE near the skill level of the NFL. Absolutely ZERO. Which I believe would influence the stats that you don't have. In the NFL, where 3rd and 3 is a passing down, I agree. At HS, I am not as sure. Most importantly, it doesn't really matter as it isn't very actionable. If we were on a staff together, and somehow a scenario where this choice came up and you choose to take 1st and 10 from the 15 and we didn't score I would just make sure I lorded it over you every time we disagreed about anything  |
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Post by bobgoodman on Jan 30, 2022 9:00:53 GMT -6
I don't think I agree with Silkyice on this, but I believe what he is trying to say is that 1st and 10 from the 15 gives the offense 2 options for "success"- touchdown or firstdown, the latter giving them 4 more tries from 5 yards or less. You have a potential 8 plays from the 15. 4 from the 10. The 15 also gives you 5 more yards that the defense has to defend on a pass. Bob, do you really think that gaining 10 yards from the 15 to the 5 is the same difficultly as gaining 10 yards from the 10? And using you analogies, is gaining 10 from the 50 to the 40 the same difficulty as gaining 10 from the 10? Bob, not trying to be a punk, but do you coach? Have you called plays in these situations? I coach, but I'm not the play caller. If I were, you probbly wouldn't see anything to distinguish me from most coaches in the pattern of plays I'd call. Of course gaining the same amount of yardage gets harder the closer ou get to the opposing goal line. But if you gain that yardage, it still leaves you farther from that goal line than if you didn't have to gain it. If it were really easier to score touchdowns from farther out, then you should tell your players that if they have the ball, unless they see a clear path to the end zone, that once they make the line-to-gain they should stop, because leaving the ball closer to the goal line makes it harder to score. On defense, once the opposing runner is past the line to gain, you should only try to prevent them from scoring the touchdown. In fact you should try to carry them closer to your goal line, because then it'll be easier to defend. That said, there are some situations on offense where a gain of yardage is a bad thing. On an early down, if you're being forced to the sideline, it's better to go out of bounds slightly behind the first down marker than slightly ahead of it. I'd rather have 2nd and a foot to go than a 1st down 2 feet ahead of that spot. But if we're talking 10 yards of difference, I'm taking that 10 yards gain every time! |
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Post by bobgoodman on Jan 30, 2022 9:26:45 GMT -6
If you are the actual play caller for your team, you get pissed for just a sec when you get first a goal at the 10. It is tough to score a TD from there!! That's like the situation I wrote of where there's a slight yardage difference but a big difference in the down. Sure, I'd rather have 2nd and 1 at the 11, maybe even 3rd and 1 at the 11, than 1st and goal at the 10. A difference in just 1 yard in field position but no chance to get a new series (without a penalty). I'm thinking that from the 11 yard line we'd probably get 2 or 3 yards and a first down pretty easily, or could take a shot in the end zone and still be in pretty good shape if the pass is incomplete. But if it was 3rd and 2 at the 12, maybe even 2nd and 2, and you gave me a choice of 1st and goal at the 8, then the goal-to-go starts to look more attractive for that "given" 4 yard gain. Make it 5 yards -- like if the defense encroaches when we have 2nd and 2 at the 15 -- and I'm taking that penalty for sure to get 1st and goal from the 10. How about the rest of you? I'll sweeten it slightly by saying you have 2nd and 1 at the opponent's 15. They encroach, it's a dead ball foul, whistled dead. Do you accept or decline the penalty? If you think they should decline the penalty, then if you're on defense, do you keep encroaching until the referee threatens to award a touchdown? |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 30, 2022 14:30:08 GMT -6
If it were really easier to score touchdowns from farther out, then you should tell your players that if they have the ball, unless they see a clear path to the end zone, that once they make the line-to-gain they should stop, because leaving the ball closer to the goal line makes it harder to score. On defense, once the opposing runner is past the line to gain, you should only try to prevent them from scoring the touchdown. In fact you should try to carry them closer to your goal line, because then it'll be easier to defend. I was, of course, talking about the very unique situation of 1st and goal at the 10, where you cannot get another first down. Agree |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 30, 2022 14:36:44 GMT -6
How about the rest of you? I'll sweeten it slightly by saying you have 2nd and 1 at the opponent's 15. They encroach, it's a dead ball foul, whistled dead. Do you accept or decline the penalty? Interesting. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Jan 30, 2022 15:13:18 GMT -6
We could also construct various choices based on the rarely-used provision that says you're allowed to accept a penalty but decline the yardage portion of it. So you're on offense, don't like the result of the play in the red zone, but there's a roughing the passer/kicker/holder/snapper penalty. If you want to, you can accept the automatic first down at the basic spot, which would be the previous spot, rather than first down and half the distance to the goal line from that spot. So it's first down no matter which choice is made. That might make some of these comparisons even more interesting.
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Post by junior6589 on Feb 1, 2022 12:55:55 GMT -6
I like the first team to 8 idea that I have heard a couple of people propose.
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Post by fantom on Feb 1, 2022 13:29:27 GMT -6
This doesn't have to be complicated. In the playoffs, guarantee that both teams have one possession. After that we're bak to sudden death. During the regular season the reason why the NFL wants to get it over with is because of TV- There's another game coming on in 20 minutes. They say it's about players' health but c'mon, they added a 17th game. To me, during the regular season they can go back to sudden death or even go back to having ties.
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Post by blb on Feb 1, 2022 13:36:29 GMT -6
This doesn't have to be complicated. In the playoffs, guarantee that both teams have one possession. After that we're bak to sudden death. During the regular season the reason why the NFL wants to get it over with is because of TV- There's another game coming on in 20 minutes. They say it's about players' health but c'mon, they added a 17th game. To me, during the regular season they can go back to sudden death or even go back to having ties. Steelers and Lions tied this season. It's all about the money. Not just the owners either - NFLPA didn't have to agree to another regular season game. There will be an 18th one (with one less Pre-Season game) within two years. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 1, 2022 18:22:16 GMT -6
Just play a quarter in the playoffs. If still tied, play another.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 2, 2022 7:38:56 GMT -6
Just play a quarter in the playoffs. If still tied, play another. I just think a quarter is a long time. I think 4 minutes is plenty. 2 minutes actually could be fine. Think how much happened in the last two minutes of Chiefs/Bills. I also think that the teams should have 3 timeouts or at least the team that doesn't get the ball first should have 3 timeouts. NBA basketball OT is 5 minutes. And they play 12 minute quarters. Meaning that there is precedent for shortening the length of a period for OT. |
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Post by blb on Feb 2, 2022 7:59:41 GMT -6
Just play a quarter in the playoffs. If still tied, play another. I just think a quarter is a long time. I think 4 minutes is plenty. 2 minutes actually could be fine. Think how much happened in the last two minutes of Chiefs/Bills. I also think that the teams should have 3 timeouts or at least the team that doesn't get the ball first should have 3 timeouts. NBA basketball OT is 5 minutes. And they play 12 minute quarters. Meaning that there is precedent for shortening the length of a period for OT. NBA players have to play both ends of the court. NFL players only go one-way. Half the time they're sitting on the bench resting. |
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Post by bignose on Feb 2, 2022 8:22:54 GMT -6
Not just the owners either - NFLPA didn't have to agree to another regular season game. Not the owner, not the players.....it's the odds makers and Las Vegas demanding a winner. Gotta get that point spread covered. And it's going to get a whole lot worse. |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 2, 2022 9:45:52 GMT -6
I just think a quarter is a long time. I think 4 minutes is plenty. 2 minutes actually could be fine. Think how much happened in the last two minutes of Chiefs/Bills. I also think that the teams should have 3 timeouts or at least the team that doesn't get the ball first should have 3 timeouts. NBA basketball OT is 5 minutes. And they play 12 minute quarters. Meaning that there is precedent for shortening the length of a period for OT. NBA players have to play both ends of the court. NFL players only go one-way. Half the time they're sitting on the bench resting. Not sure how that is quite relevant. By that logic the NBA game should be 30 minutes long instead of 48. |
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Post by fantom on Feb 2, 2022 10:10:22 GMT -6
Not just the owners either - NFLPA didn't have to agree to another regular season game. Not the owner, not the players.....it's the odds makers and Las Vegas demanding a winner. Gotta get that point spread covered. And it's going to get a whole lot worse. Ties don't affect the point spread. If you're favored by a point but tie you lose. |
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Post by blb on Feb 2, 2022 13:22:35 GMT -6
NBA players have to play both ends of the court. NFL players only go one-way. Half the time they're sitting on the bench resting. Not sure how that is quite relevant. By that logic the NBA game should be 30 minutes long instead of 48. I don't get your math-reasoning. NBA players are among the best athletes in the world. HS basketball games are 32 minutes. I do think NBA season, and playoffs, are both too long. |
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