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Post by midlinemoney on Dec 7, 2021 9:02:56 GMT -6
This has been discussed a few times on this board but haven't seen anything for a couple years (please post the link if it has been discussed for 2021). I have seen the 2014 article that lists each state, but cannot find a more recent one for states beyond what are listed below.
Please list what your state does to handle the public vs. private issue. If there is a competitive balance/success factor/championship factor please explain if it is for all schools or just privates and how many years each state goes back.
Alabama- 1.35 Multiplier, plus success factor every two years. How does this work? Arkansas- up 1 class, 4 year cycle Florida- publics 600 or less in one class, no modifications in rest of classes Georgia- separate for 550 or less, out of district multipliers for rest, could bump you 1 or 2 classes Indiana- competitive balance for all schools, move up or down every 2 years, Kentucky- no modifications Louisiana- split, 5 public classes, 4 non public classes Mississippi- no modifications Missouri- competitive balance, private schools only, go back 6 years to determine how many points you have, can only bump up two classes North Carolina- class determined 50% enrollment, 25% record in all sports previous cycle (how long is a cycle?), 25% percentage of kids on government assistance, Tennessee- split, 6 public school classes, 3 private school classes Virginia- split, unless private school agrees to boundary, only 1 private has joined
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 7, 2021 9:39:20 GMT -6
SC multiplier, but only move up 1 class
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Post by newhope on Dec 8, 2021 8:39:51 GMT -6
This has been discussed a few times on this board but haven't seen anything for a couple years (please post the link if it has been discussed for 2021). I have seen the 2014 article that lists each state, but cannot find a more recent one for states beyond what are listed below. Please list what your state does to handle the public vs. private issue. If there is a competitive balance/success factor/championship factor please explain if it is for all schools or just privates and how many years each state goes back. Alabama- 1.35 Multiplier, plus success factor every two years. How does this work? Arkansas- up 1 class, 4 year cycle Florida- publics 600 or less in one class, no modifications in rest of classes Georgia- separate for 550 or less, out of district multipliers for rest, could bump you 1 or 2 classes Indiana- competitive balance for all schools, move up or down every 2 years, Kentucky- no modifications Louisiana- split, 5 public classes, 4 non public classes Mississippi- no modifications Missouri- competitive balance, private schools only, go back 6 years to determine how many points you have, can only bump up two classes North Carolina- class determined 50% enrollment, 25% record in all sports previous cycle (how long is a cycle?), 25% percentage of kids on government assistance, Tennessee- split, 6 public school classes, 3 private school classes Virginia- split, unless private school agrees to boundary, only 1 private has joined The NC rule is going to change. (A cycle was 4 years btw)
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Post by newhope on Dec 8, 2021 8:47:50 GMT -6
We get to play with players in our fairly narrow attendance zone (which changes every few years). Privates get to play with anyone who can drive to the school--so their attendance zone can be pretty broad. In NC, it's a 25 mile radius---but some find ways around that. I'm not sure how there's going to be a level playing field between a narrow attendance zone and a 25 mile radius. Using the formula described above in NC didn't really work--it just put the privates in with affluent high schools for the most part. It certainly didn't solve the problem.
Admittedly, there are also those areas with "open enrollment" throughout the district. Again, hard to have a level playing field when one school brings in players from an entire county and the others have a small area inside the county to draw from.
I've always believed they should play in their own league or division. Traditional public schools play together, the others play together.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2021 8:55:23 GMT -6
Tennessee does split privates and publics out, but privates who don’t offer financial aid to their students are allowed to complete in the public classification with a multiplier. I think it’s 1.2.
Most of the better private programs have voluntarily moved into the private school classifications by now due to some rules revisions a few years back.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2021 9:04:40 GMT -6
We get to play with players in our fairly narrow attendance zone (which changes every few years). Privates get to play with anyone who can drive to the school--so their attendance zone can be pretty broad. In NC, it's a 25 mile radius---but some find ways around that. I'm not sure how there's going to be a level playing field between a narrow attendance zone and a 25 mile radius. Using the formula described above in NC didn't really work--it just put the privates in with affluent high schools for the most part. It certainly didn't solve the problem. Admittedly, there are also those areas with "open enrollment" throughout the district. Again, hard to have a level playing field when one school brings in players from an entire county and the others have a small area inside the county to draw from. I've always believed they should play in their own league or division. Traditional public schools play together, the others play together. Public school “recruiting” has been an issue in our state for a while. Several of our state’s dominant public school programs (we’re talking schools who play for state about every year) benefit from open enrollment policies that siphon off talent from less affluent county systems nearby who don’t have those advantages. “Recruiting” is illegal for public schools, but all kinds of shady things happen under the table, like coaches or boosters giving athletes’ families places to live rent-free if they’ll move into their zone. A few years ago a former player-turned-booster loaded some stud athletes from a nearby school up and drove them to a local powerhouse to meet with staff during school hours—the coach there refused to meet with them because it was such an obvious violation. Our state is full of relatively affluent, smaller “city” school systems that draw in talent from nearby county schools with narrow enrollment zones. The state funding formula is pretty much designed to make it that way: if a county wants to build a new building or invest in their system, they have to also give an equal amount of money to the cities who already control most of the tax base and don’t have to do the same.
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 8, 2021 10:45:37 GMT -6
Do any of you outside SC have to deal with charter schools based loosely on the IMG type model?
We have several that popped up: classes in the morning, training/practice after lunch. Plus they limit enrollment to keep their size down. These are publicly funded charter schools. Their attendance falls within our second lowest class. (2 of 5)
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Post by newhope on Dec 8, 2021 11:06:18 GMT -6
We get to play with players in our fairly narrow attendance zone (which changes every few years). Privates get to play with anyone who can drive to the school--so their attendance zone can be pretty broad. In NC, it's a 25 mile radius---but some find ways around that. I'm not sure how there's going to be a level playing field between a narrow attendance zone and a 25 mile radius. Using the formula described above in NC didn't really work--it just put the privates in with affluent high schools for the most part. It certainly didn't solve the problem. Admittedly, there are also those areas with "open enrollment" throughout the district. Again, hard to have a level playing field when one school brings in players from an entire county and the others have a small area inside the county to draw from. I've always believed they should play in their own league or division. Traditional public schools play together, the others play together. Public school “recruiting” has been an issue in our state for a while. Several of our state’s dominant public school programs (we’re talking schools who play for state about every year) benefit from open enrollment policies that siphon off talent from less affluent county systems nearby who don’t have those advantages. “Recruiting” is illegal for public schools, but all kinds of shady things happen under the table, like coaches or boosters giving athletes’ families places to live rent-free if they’ll move into their zone. A few years ago a former player-turned-booster loaded some stud athletes from a nearby school up and drove them to a local powerhouse to meet with staff during school hours—the coach there refused to meet with them because it was such an obvious violation. Our state is full of relatively affluent, smaller “city” school systems that draw in talent from nearby county schools with narrow enrollment zones. The state funding formula is pretty much designed to make it that way: if a county wants to build a new building or invest in their system, they have to also give an equal amount of money to the cities who already control most of the tax base and don’t have to do the same. What you are describing as "recruiting" is going on all over. You've got schools in areas of high population outside of major cities that are loaded with transfers....not just the normal people move into those areas thing....but a surprising number of D1 players who just happened to move there.
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Post by bignose on Dec 8, 2021 12:07:47 GMT -6
In Maryland, the Public Schools and Private Schools compete in their own leagues and do not play one another for the "State Championship.'
That being said, they occasionally play one another during the regular season.
We've got the same recruiting issues between the Public Schools and Privates Schools that seem to be occurring nationwide.
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Post by coachsnow106 on Dec 8, 2021 12:39:38 GMT -6
Tennessee does split privates and publics out, but privates who don’t offer financial aid to their students are allowed to complete in the public classification with a multiplier. I think it’s 1.2. Most of the better private programs have voluntarily moved into the private school classifications by now due to some rules revisions a few years back. This is not the case. Privates may play public schools. Private schools are split into their own regions and their own classification. The old multiplier was 1.8 but is no longer needed due to a complete public private split. Open zoned/enrollment schools still recruit however. A few get caught from time to time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2021 14:29:50 GMT -6
Tennessee does split privates and publics out, but privates who don’t offer financial aid to their students are allowed to complete in the public classification with a multiplier. I think it’s 1.2. Most of the better private programs have voluntarily moved into the private school classifications by now due to some rules revisions a few years back. This is not the case. Privates may play public schools. Private schools are split into their own regions and their own classification. The old multiplier was 1.8 but is no longer needed due to a complete public private split. Open zoned/enrollment schools still recruit however. A few get caught from time to time. I never said that privates can’t play public schools. They play each other all the time. I just said they are in their own classification with their own districts, as you said. Apologies if that was unclear. I believed there were some privates still playing in public districts with a multiplier, but when I checked those were all either charter schools or ones with names that sound private but aren’t so I will concede that point.
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Post by tog on Dec 8, 2021 15:38:04 GMT -6
Texas UIL is public schools. They did let two private in a long time ago It still pisses me off they did that. But those two haven't done much of anything.
The private schools have their own leagues.
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Post by carookie on Dec 8, 2021 17:30:02 GMT -6
Southern California (because out here our state is divided into 10 separate state entities) makes no distinction between public or private. For the most part, privates join in leagues (groups of 4-8 teams) with other privates, but I have been in leagues which combine both private and publics out here.
As for playoffs, well thats just a mess anywho. Basically they rank every team that earns a playoff bid: teams earn playoff bids by either finishing high enough in your league standings or by being an at large with the most strength points (you know some formula of wins, opp win % etc).
In any case there are 14 divisions for playoffs, division 1 takes the top eight teams, D2 takes the next 16, d3 the next 16, and so on. This is done for competitive equity, so that the same teams don't keep winning in the playoffs every year. So in the end, if you are the 24th ranked team you are the bottom seed in D2 Playoffs; but if you are the 25th ranked team then you are the top team in D3.
Problem with this, I have been at small schools who did well and made the playoffs, only to get matched up against giant schools, who are mediocre relative to their size, but get put in the same playoff division as us. I have literally coached playoff games against teams who had more people on their roster than we had in our whole school.
But competitive balance; they struggle to compete with schools of equal size in the playoffs, so let them come get wins against smaller schools.
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Post by hawksrule on Dec 10, 2021 5:35:19 GMT -6
In Iowa, all schools are treated the same. There was some discussion about using some sort of multiplier for private schools but then covid hit and no one has said anything about it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 10, 2021 17:52:16 GMT -6
In Iowa, all schools are treated the same. There was some discussion about using some sort of multiplier for private schools but then covid hit and no one has said anything about it. is there any evidence that schools should not he treated the same? For example, in Louisiana private schools might make up 20% of the football playing schools yet 60% of the champions
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Post by hawksrule on Dec 12, 2021 20:47:36 GMT -6
In Iowa, all schools are treated the same. There was some discussion about using some sort of multiplier for private schools but then covid hit and no one has said anything about it. is there any evidence that schools should not he treated the same? For example, in Louisiana private schools might make up 20% of the football playing schools yet 60% of the champions Not that I'm aware of. The discussion always gets brought up if private schools have a good year. This year however, I believe all the schools playing in the championship games were public schools. A few years ago over half the champions were private schools and people were calling for some sort of change.
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Post by Yash on Dec 12, 2021 22:57:23 GMT -6
In wisconsin public and private are the same. Private used to have own division, changed in 1999. Many feel private schools should have a multiplier or move up a division. In our lower division D7-D4 there are usually 2 or 3 private schools that win them, the same ones typically every year. D3 has a team that flucuates between D3 and D4, when in D4 they will win every year, while in D3 they will always be there, might not always win.
D2 and D1 have not have a private school champion-- no private schools in D2, only one I believe in D1.
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Post by CS on Dec 13, 2021 8:37:05 GMT -6
This has been discussed a few times on this board but haven't seen anything for a couple years (please post the link if it has been discussed for 2021). I have seen the 2014 article that lists each state, but cannot find a more recent one for states beyond what are listed below. Please list what your state does to handle the public vs. private issue. If there is a competitive balance/success factor/championship factor please explain if it is for all schools or just privates and how many years each state goes back. Alabama- 1.35 Multiplier, plus success factor every two years. How does this work? Arkansas- up 1 class, 4 year cycle Florida- publics 600 or less in one class, no modifications in rest of classes Georgia- separate for 550 or less, out of district multipliers for rest, could bump you 1 or 2 classes Indiana- competitive balance for all schools, move up or down every 2 years, Kentucky- no modifications Louisiana- split, 5 public classes, 4 non public classes Mississippi- no modifications Missouri- competitive balance, private schools only, go back 6 years to determine how many points you have, can only bump up two classes North Carolina- class determined 50% enrollment, 25% record in all sports previous cycle (how long is a cycle?), 25% percentage of kids on government assistance, Tennessee- split, 6 public school classes, 3 private school classes Virginia- split, unless private school agrees to boundary, only 1 private has joined Arkansas has changed to a success point system for privates. Shockingly they have all been so successful they will be moving up in class. So they will be reevaluated every 2 years
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Post by mkuempel on Dec 13, 2021 8:51:43 GMT -6
In Iowa, all schools are treated the same. There was some discussion about using some sort of multiplier for private schools but then covid hit and no one has said anything about it. is there any evidence that schools should not he treated the same? For example, in Louisiana private schools might make up 20% of the football playing schools yet 60% of the champions The only evidence presented up to this point is the correlation between the lower the "free and reduced lunch" percentage of a school the higher the winning percentage of that school in multiple sports. The superintendent who presented the info went back something like 20 years to collect the data. The argument being that private schools don't have to present their "free and reduced" numbers, so it is assumed they are at 0% "free and reduced" since students are paying tuition to attend that school and can afford to pay for school lunch with no issue.
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Post by coachkeating33 on Dec 13, 2021 8:52:15 GMT -6
This has been discussed a few times on this board but haven't seen anything for a couple years (please post the link if it has been discussed for 2021). I have seen the 2014 article that lists each state, but cannot find a more recent one for states beyond what are listed below. Please list what your state does to handle the public vs. private issue. If there is a competitive balance/success factor/championship factor please explain if it is for all schools or just privates and how many years each state goes back. Alabama- 1.35 Multiplier, plus success factor every two years. How does this work? Arkansas- up 1 class, 4 year cycle Florida- publics 600 or less in one class, no modifications in rest of classes Georgia- separate for 550 or less, out of district multipliers for rest, could bump you 1 or 2 classes Indiana- competitive balance for all schools, move up or down every 2 years, Kentucky- no modifications Louisiana- split, 5 public classes, 4 non public classes Mississippi- no modifications Missouri- competitive balance, private schools only, go back 6 years to determine how many points you have, can only bump up two classes North Carolina- class determined 50% enrollment, 25% record in all sports previous cycle (how long is a cycle?), 25% percentage of kids on government assistance, Tennessee- split, 6 public school classes, 3 private school classes Virginia- split, unless private school agrees to boundary, only 1 private has joined we are in south jersey...non public has there own playoff groupings...grouped by school size
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Post by coachkeating33 on Dec 13, 2021 8:53:50 GMT -6
In Maryland, the Public Schools and Private Schools compete in their own leagues and do not play one another for the "State Championship.' That being said, they occasionally play one another during the regular season. We've got the same recruiting issues between the Public Schools and Privates Schools that seem to be occurring nationwide. same with nj-- they play during the regular season and can be in the same division even
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Post by groundchuck on Dec 13, 2021 9:48:26 GMT -6
Minnesota MSHSL is all public and private schools. No multiplier. Several private and public schools do opt up in football and hockey. In football we have 6 classes plus 9-man. This year one private school (smallest 11 man class) won a title. The rest were all public schools.
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Post by newhope on Dec 14, 2021 9:05:50 GMT -6
I'm going to guess there will be a move in NC---which will probably fail again---to remove the private schools and charters from playing with the normal high schools, especially since the private school with players from all over just won the state championship in the largest classification. There was a vote several years back to remove them that failed largely because the state's two largest districts didn't vote to remove them. Now that those two districts have both lost to them, look for another attempt to be made. Even the recruiting and open district schools are at a disadvantage to them. It won't just be the small classifications demanding something be done IMO.
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Post by knight9299 on Dec 15, 2021 21:53:19 GMT -6
is there any evidence that schools should not he treated the same? For example, in Louisiana private schools might make up 20% of the football playing schools yet 60% of the champions Not that I'm aware of. The discussion always gets brought up if private schools have a good year. This year however, I believe all the schools playing in the championship games were public schools. A few years ago over half the champions were private schools and people were calling for some sort of change. And the state association selected a former private school principal as their new president. So doubtful to see any multiplier for the private schools.
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Post by wingtol on Dec 16, 2021 7:48:47 GMT -6
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 20, 2021 11:38:20 GMT -6
I'm in Rhode Island. Obviously we are a small state so we only have 6 Private High Schools with football programs, but we have the same problems as all of you, just on a smaller scale. The RI Interscholastic League classifies schools by a formula. 85% of the formula is your league record from the past 3 seasons, 15% male enrollment. We have 4 Divisions (Classifications) in RI. However, the current system has 5 playoffs. As of right now, two of these teams are in Division 1 (our top division). two are in Division 2. The other two are not really football schools so they co-op with public schools close to them. Both these teams are in our lowst classification, Division 4. There are 2 private schools here, where most years they are the two best teams in the state. Obviously, when this happens over and over again, the public schools competing with these teams are going to complain. So for the last few years this is how the playoffs work. The top four teams in Div. 1 compete for the "State Championship". The two losers from those semi final games get redistributed back into the playoff pool with the next 4 best teams from Div. 1, making the Div. 1 playoff a 6 team bracket now, with the 2 semi final losers getting 1st round byes. So we have 5 "state champions". The highest title is simply called "State Champions". Then we have D1, D2, D3, D4 State Champions.
This would be my solution in our state. There are 4 of 6 private schools that have excellent programs. Those 4 schools should have their own conference and their playoff should be separate from the public schools. I also think our states classification formula needs to be tweaked. Male enrollment counting just 15% toward the formula is just ridiculous if you ask me. I understand they want to make the classifications as even as possible, but sometimes we have schools with a male enrollment of 350 or lower in our highest classification because they had a couple good seasons in D2. Well all the players that got these small schools bumped up are gone leaving some of the small schools trying to compete with schools with 700, 800 or more male students for a couple years until they can get bumped back down.
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Post by freezeoption on Dec 21, 2021 8:05:12 GMT -6
Actually, Missouri is all schools now have success factor. Unless I read something wrong.
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Post by teachcoachwm on Dec 21, 2021 8:54:29 GMT -6
SC multiplier, but only move up 1 class Actually SC does not have a multiplier.....There was a push for it 2 cycles ago, but then realignment ended up moving the schools up without it, so it fell by the wayside. Now they have moved all the privates / charters back down to Classes AA and A. I would venture to say that next year that not a single public school wins a state title in ANY sport in Class A.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 21, 2021 9:40:20 GMT -6
Question about these promotion/relegation or "success factor" systems. What about the largest classifications? I have never agreed with promotion/relegation or success factors in HS settings for a few reasons, this being one of them. The others are the fact that the team promoted is usually NOT going to be team that had the success. Those guys have graduated.
What I find most curious is that in Louisiana-the schools that would be most targeted for such a system voluntarily chose to play up. John Curtis Christian plays in the top class. Evangel Christian Academy played in the top class when they were elite (they have fallen on harder times now but still play up to 4A) and the new kid on the block Lafayette Christian Academy is playing up after winning 4 out of the last 5 titles in the lower private division.
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 21, 2021 13:18:02 GMT -6
SC multiplier, but only move up 1 class Actually SC does not have a multiplier.....There was a push for it 2 cycles ago, but then realignment ended up moving the schools up without it, so it fell by the wayside. Now they have moved all the privates / charters back down to Classes AA and A. I would venture to say that next year that not a single public school wins a state title in ANY sport in Class A. Coach, you are correct and thank you for correcting me. I forgot that it was only proposed and never passed. There is a new systemic proposal being circulated that addresses this as part of a larger document. I won't dishevel this thread with all the particulars. I will say this having been around some really good A/AA programs, other than the the 'country club' sports, there are some pretty salty A/AA sport programs that will have something to say at the end of their sports seasons.... I would not say ANY
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