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3rd Down
Nov 27, 2021 19:28:11 GMT -6
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Post by cracker18 on Nov 27, 2021 19:28:11 GMT -6
I’m looking for ways to be better on 3rd down on offense and defense. I know we need to practice it more, but any other ideas you guys have would be greatly appreciated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 20:04:56 GMT -6
It’s situational and the situations are more complex than “3rd down.”
The #1 way to be better on third down is to be better on 1st and 2nd down. If you’re always in 3rd and long, offensively, you’re probably going to struggle. If your defense is trying to stop 3rd and short, that’s tough, too.
Offensively, break it up into 3rd and short (under 3 yards) 3rd and medium (3-7 yards) and 3rd and long (7+). When you’re facing a 2nd and 8+, try to pick up some yards to make 3rd down more makable.
Teams tend to get fairly predictable on 3rd down, so use those tendencies against them. If they like to pin their ears back and bring it, I like to throw screens. If they like to drop 8, I’d be more inclined to run a draw. If it’s 3rd and short, I like to just KISS and run a QB sneak for a yard or two—even if we don’t get it, it should be 4th and 1 so we can do it again.
My personal favorite offensive calls for medium yardage situations like that are to get the QB outside on a sprint out pass so he has the option of running or throwing a ball that his sprinting out is making easier on him. If I’m going to drop back, I’m going to keep 6-7 in to protect. It’s also a great time to run a hard count or a freeze play with a way to check to something safe.
An old HC I worked for many years ago had a bread-and-butter pass he liked to call on 3rd and medium-3rd and long that was simply called “sticks.” The concept was simple: max protect and send 3-4 guys out for a pass where they run 1 yard past the sticks, then stop and open up to the QB like a deep hitch. That was it. It was surprisingly consistent.
Another thing that helps, offensively, is to turn off post-snap RPOs and stuff like that to reduce potential for mental mistakes to screw up execution. Devote all your efforts to executing one play with unified, concentrated effort.
When it comes to defense, this is where a good tendency report pays off. Identify what it is they like to do and what blocking scheme or pass protection they use, then call something to attack that. If it’s 3rd and long, I generally like bringing pressure because the situation is already putting the offense under a lot of pressure to execute, so I want to see if they can really make a play with dudes coming hard.
The single best piece of advice I’ve gotten is that in clutch situations, think players and not plays. Get the ball to the guys you trust and let them have a chance to make something happen, especially when there is a mismatch. Don’t outthink yourself.
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3rd Down
Nov 27, 2021 20:22:34 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Defcord on Nov 27, 2021 20:22:34 GMT -6
It’s situational and the situations are more complex than “3rd down.” The #1 way to be better on third down is to be better on 1st and 2nd down. If you’re always in 3rd and long, offensively, you’re probably going to struggle. If your defense is trying to stop 3rd and short, that’s tough, too. Offensively, break it up into 3rd and short (under 3 yards) 3rd and medium (3-7 yards) and 3rd and long (7+). When you’re facing a 2nd and 8+, try to pick up some yards to make 3rd down more makable. Teams tend to get fairly predictable on 3rd down, so use those tendencies against them. If they like to pin their ears back and bring it, I like to throw screens. If they like to drop 8, I’d be more inclined to run a draw. If it’s 3rd and short, I like to just KISS and run a QB sneak for a yard or two—even if we don’t get it, it should be 4th and 1 so we can do it again. My personal favorite offensive calls for medium yardage situations like that are to get the QB outside on a sprint out pass so he has the option of running or throwing a ball that his sprinting out is making easier on him. If I’m going to drop back, I’m going to keep 6-7 in to protect. It’s also a great time to run a hard count or a freeze play with a way to check to something safe. An old HC I worked for many years ago had a bread-and-butter pass he liked to call on 3rd and medium-3rd and long that was simply called “sticks.” The concept was simple: max protect and send 3-4 guys out for a pass where they run 1 yard past the sticks, then stop and open up to the QB like a deep hitch. That was it. It was surprisingly consistent. Another thing that helps, offensively, is to turn off post-snap RPOs and stuff like that to reduce potential for mental mistakes to screw up execution. Devote all your efforts to executing one play with unified, concentrated effort. When it comes to defense, this is where a good tendency report pays off. Identify what it is they like to do and what blocking scheme or pass protection they use, then call something to attack that. If it’s 3rd and long, I generally like bringing pressure because the situation is already putting the offense under a lot of pressure to execute, so I want to see if they can really make a play with dudes coming hard. The single best piece of advice I’ve gotten is that in clutch situations, think players and not plays. Get the ball to the guys you trust and let them have a chance to make something happen, especially when there is a mismatch. Don’t outthink yourself. The last paragraph is equally important on defense. A vast majority of our big plays on third downs and long come by putting our best rush guy vs their worst protector and playing some coverage that allows us to cheat our best safety in a position to play over the top of their best receiver. We are making sure we have a free player over the guy that their qb is going to force the ball too when he’s under pressure. This is just our third and long philosophy. We have ways to approach third and mediums and short as well but big plays typically happen on third and long so it’s such an important spot. As stated before getting to manageable third downs will be the most important part of the whole answer. |
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3rd Down
Nov 27, 2021 21:29:44 GMT -6
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 27, 2021 21:29:44 GMT -6
The #1 way to be better on third down is to be better on 1st and 2nd down. Jackpot. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 27, 2021 22:09:20 GMT -6
I’m looking for ways to be better on 3rd down on offense and defense. I know we need to practice it more, but any other ideas you guys have would be greatly appreciated. How do you practice “3rd down”. Just calling out “Third down” or even labeling a period as “3 rd down period” seems like window dressing with no real benefit. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 28, 2021 6:05:01 GMT -6
I’m looking for ways to be better on 3rd down on offense and defense. I know we need to practice it more, but any other ideas you guys have would be greatly appreciated. Our whole Wednesday practice is devoted to 3rd down. |
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Post by kcbazooka on Nov 28, 2021 8:47:15 GMT -6
If you decide you’re going to go for it on most 4th downs it helps tremendously with your 3rd down calls!
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 28, 2021 9:15:17 GMT -6
I’m looking for ways to be better on 3rd down on offense and defense. I know we need to practice it more, but any other ideas you guys have would be greatly appreciated. Our whole Wednesday practice is devoted to 3rd down. How? |
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 28, 2021 9:52:52 GMT -6
Wednesday (5 minute periods) periods 2-4: Defensive team 3rd & medium/3rd & long period 5: Defensive team 3rd & short 6-8: Offensive Skeleton pass all 3rds 14-16: Defensive team pass 3rd & medium/long These are good on good segments, rotating through the 2 deep, working as the show team for the other side of the ball. Coaches are expected to have a running idea of how the opponents position group operates (if the DB shuffle vs back pedal, if the WR tip off routes by inverting, etc.....). There is an AC (with the help of the HC) for both sides that acts as the OC/DC for the show team getting the calls made and the rest of us monitor the our position group. We don't use chains but will spot the ball so that the line to make is an easily identifiable painted line (every 5 yards) if that makes sense. Also usually once during the offensive team segment if we don't make the given play situation we'll call for the FG team and attempt a FG if we are close enough. coachd5085 |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 28, 2021 10:09:58 GMT -6
Wednesday (5 minute periods) periods 2-4: Defensive team 3rd & medium/3rd & long period 5: Defensive team 3rd & short 6-8: Offensive Skeleton pass all 3rds 14-16: Defensive team pass 3rd & medium/long These are good on good segments, rotating through the 2 deep, working as the show team for the other side of the ball. Coaches are expected to have a running idea of how the opponents position group operates (if the DB shuffle vs back pedal, if the WR tip off routes by inverting, etc.....). There is an AC (with the help of the HC) for both sides that acts as the OC/DC for the show team getting the calls made and the rest of us monitor the our position group. We don't use chains but will spot the ball so that the line to make is an easily identifiable painted line (every 5 yards) if that makes sense. Also usually once during the offensive team segment if we don't make the given play situation we'll call for the FG team and attempt a FG if we are close enough. coachd5085 I guess what I was asking is other than saying "this period is called 3rd and medium/ 3rd and Long" how are are you working on them? Are your calls in those situations significantly different than calls in other situations? It sounds "coachy" - I get it. And I used to do the same thing. Looking back though, do teams like the OPs have a need to get better on 3rd down because they are not practicing playcalls they would use on 3rd down enough? Is that the issue? If so, what else have you been calling in practice ?? Said another way, how different is the 3rd down portion of your playcall list (for offense and defense) that devoting a day to just those calls would bring about significant improvement? |
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Post by mariner42 on Nov 28, 2021 10:18:35 GMT -6
The #1 way to be better on third down is to be better on 1st and 2nd down. Jackpot. Seconded. If you can get a TFL/sack on 1st or 2nd, 3rd down gets WAY easy. Conversely on offense, if you're consistently looking at anything more than 3rd and 3, you aren't consistently executing to make yourself successful. I would bet I'm close to 80% success rate on 3rd and 1-2. Why? Because we've clearly done SOMETHING right on 1st and 2nd down and I can get as aggressive or conservative as I want. My 3rd down play calls as a Wing-T guy are basically: Belly Option, Tackle Trap or FB Trap, or Buck Sweep. 1st and 2nd down are what determines what 3rd down is. Lastly, what makes you say you need to be better on those downs? Is it a coaching issue or a coach issue? |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 28, 2021 10:48:07 GMT -6
Seconded. If you can get a TFL/sack on 1st or 2nd, 3rd down gets WAY easy. Conversely on offense, if you're consistently looking at anything more than 3rd and 3, you aren't consistently executing to make yourself successful. I would bet I'm close to 80% success rate on 3rd and 1-2. Why? Because we've clearly done SOMETHING right on 1st and 2nd down and I can get as aggressive or conservative as I want. My 3rd down play calls as a Wing-T guy are basically: Belly Option, Tackle Trap or FB Trap, or Buck Sweep. 1st and 2nd down are what determines what 3rd down is. Lastly, what makes you say you need to be better on those downs? Is it a coaching issue or a coach issue? But lets get a little reductive here...what is making you successful on 1st and 2nd down? Chances are it is : 1) Bigger, Stronger, Faster players 2) players playing with better leverage and body control 3) Players aligned and executing their assignments... Does a down marker change that? Sure there are some things that someone could look at- from a coaching point I think the first thing that might jump out is not necessarily how successful I was on 1st and 2nd down, but rather how the potential results OTHER than yards gained of 1st and 2nd might influence 3rd down. For instance, (and this is absolutely confirmation bias speaking here) it seems like I often see Wing-T coaches putting their QBs in a situation where they have to waggle out to their non throwing side on 3rd down which arguably reduces the run/pass threat effectiveness. Or maybe another example is trying to ensure you somehow get to run to your best lineman in the best situation (numbers advantage, wideside / boundary issues etc) |
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 28, 2021 13:04:30 GMT -6
coachd5085 To me it more of a process thing. I can't speak what is talked about in the offensive office, but our DC has scrubbed stuff based on how it played out in practice or said somethings along the lines of "I'm going to stay away from call X when its 3rd and blank/I'm going to want to be in call Y when they bring in that TE on 3rd down". I do know the kids expect it b/c if I forget to tell specific D&D, one of the kids usually asks what it is. When I was a play caller I made out a call sheet for each and every game, but rarely did I look at it on Friday b/c by then it was usually burned into my brain. If I did look at it, it usually meant things weren't going well. To clarify, in those periods the show team is running specially what has been charted from film oh 3rd downs.
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 28, 2021 13:16:20 GMT -6
I agree that 3rd is specially dependent on 1st and 2nd, and if you're REALLY good on 1st & 2nd you don't see many tough 3rds. It is with anything, the more you emphasize it, the more important it becomes.
For example: 2 point plays. We never got into a situation that we needed a crucial 2 pointer, but if we had needed to make that call our offense had spent 5 minutes honing their best ones 17 times versus our #1 defense.
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CoachSP
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Post by CoachSP on Nov 30, 2021 8:19:40 GMT -6
coachd5085 To me it more of a process thing. I can't speak what is talked about in the offensive office, but our DC has scrubbed stuff based on how it played out in practice or said somethings along the lines of "I'm going to stay away from call X when its 3rd and blank/I'm going to want to be in call Y when they bring in that TE on 3rd down". I do know the kids expect it b/c if I forget to tell specific D&D, one of the kids usually asks what it is. When I was a play caller I made out a call sheet for each and every game, but rarely did I look at it on Friday b/c by then it was usually burned into my brain. If I did look at it, it usually meant things weren't going well. To clarify, in those periods the show team is running specially what has been charted from film oh 3rd downs. This is what I was thinking as well. From a defensive standpoint, the script comes from the film. I tend not to always call that out to the players because I don't think they will necessarily remember the opponent's favorite plays on 3rd; however, I will tell them during our 3rd down scripted day that "Hey guys, these are our favorite play calls this week for 3rd down." I don't think they always need that info, but I tell them anyway. I do it not because I want them to "cheat the play" on Friday. However, if a team has a few obvious favorites on 3rd, I may call a coverage or stunt that makes us better vs. those concepts. Still an educated guessing game at the end of the day. |
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CoachSP
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Post by CoachSP on Nov 30, 2021 8:51:37 GMT -6
I’m looking for ways to be better on 3rd down on offense and defense. I know we need to practice it more, but any other ideas you guys have would be greatly appreciated. I'm a DC. Here is my 3rd down homework: I use the film (tendencies I get from tagging) and try to see if the other team has some favorite play calls on 3rd. It's not a perfect system because not everyone has those tendencies. However, I have a few "if/then" thoughts when I am building the call sheet for 3rd down. A few examples: -If they don't have an obvious play call they like, but they like, for example, vertical route combos, I'm sending heat regardless of the routes. -If they are good at screens, I'm going to be careful about sending heat. Maybe I will call a coverage that puts us in good position vs. the screen. -If they like quick slants on 3rd and short, I may call a coverage to bait the slant. Or, I may sit guys in windows and take it away now without giving the other team the option. There's more, but you get the point. It can be a bit of a guessing game. |
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Post by cwaltsmith on Dec 1, 2021 13:43:50 GMT -6
I’m looking for ways to be better on 3rd down on offense and defense. I know we need to practice it more, but any other ideas you guys have would be greatly appreciated. I'm a DC. Here is my 3rd down homework: I use the film (tendencies I get from tagging) and try to see if the other team has some favorite play calls on 3rd. It's not a perfect system because not everyone has those tendencies. However, I have a few "if/then" thoughts when I am building the call sheet for 3rd down. A few examples: -If they don't have an obvious play call they like, but they like, for example, vertical route combos, I'm sending heat regardless of the routes. -If they are good at screens, I'm going to be careful about sending heat. Maybe I will call a coverage that puts us in good position vs. the screen. -If they like quick slants on 3rd and short, I may call a coverage to bait the slant. Or, I may sit guys in windows and take it away now without giving the other team the option. There's more, but you get the point. It can be a bit of a guessing game. This is exactly what I do. I however am curious as to how saying your pracicing against 3rd down helps u on 3rd down. It may be that simple and I don't get it... not saying its wrong I know a ton of coaches that do it and are successful. I just believe its coach speak mostly and not sure it actually has true merit... Now practicing the calls you like for 3rd down a lot in practice I think could help u in the game but not sure about telling kids this is 3rd down helps.... I actually thought about doing this this season and adding consquences if scout offense made it, and that might have impact not sure we didnt do it. |
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
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Post by CoachSP on Dec 2, 2021 8:09:52 GMT -6
I'm a DC. Here is my 3rd down homework: I use the film (tendencies I get from tagging) and try to see if the other team has some favorite play calls on 3rd. It's not a perfect system because not everyone has those tendencies. However, I have a few "if/then" thoughts when I am building the call sheet for 3rd down. A few examples: -If they don't have an obvious play call they like, but they like, for example, vertical route combos, I'm sending heat regardless of the routes. -If they are good at screens, I'm going to be careful about sending heat. Maybe I will call a coverage that puts us in good position vs. the screen. -If they like quick slants on 3rd and short, I may call a coverage to bait the slant. Or, I may sit guys in windows and take it away now without giving the other team the option. There's more, but you get the point. It can be a bit of a guessing game. This is exactly what I do. I however am curious as to how saying your pracicing against 3rd down helps u on 3rd down. It may be that simple and I don't get it... not saying its wrong I know a ton of coaches that do it and are successful. I just believe its coach speak mostly and not sure it actually has true merit... Now practicing the calls you like for 3rd down a lot in practice I think could help u in the game but not sure about telling kids this is 3rd down helps.... I actually thought about doing this this season and adding consquences if scout offense made it, and that might have impact not sure we didnt do it. I like talking about 3rd and Long because there will be some alignment tweaks within the coverage (such as playing the sticks). I'm not sure if we necessarily "practice 3rd down", but I do have a day where I have the scouts run exclusively 3rd down plays. To your last point about having consequences for the scout team converting: I do this for a short yardage/goal line period weekly. I script 5-6 plays from the 10. It's live. Scouts vs. 1's. Keep them out the endzone. It turns up the heat for a few minutes and creates some competition. |
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Post by veerman on Dec 2, 2021 13:33:45 GMT -6
We do our 3rd down (and 4th depending on field positioning) situations based on different scenarios with field positioning. We will do different D&D with the offense "coming out" of their endzone, "middle", "going in" (40-15) and "redzone". I don't know if it helps but IMO it gets kids more comfortable with situations. In the past we use the chains and D&D markers to give our kids a more game like feel. I think the more you can try an replicate situations they may be in a game the better chance they will have when facing those situations. Along with the scenarios mentioned earlier we also do a 2 min drill, a nascar (if team is known for no huddle), and a "Do or Die" situation where we are trying to hold ball carrier up and try to force a strip at end of game situation.
We also use this time to talk about alignment tweaks and certain things to look for and how we want to play them depending on D&D.
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