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Post by carookie on Nov 10, 2021 14:22:44 GMT -6
Allow me to preface this by writing I am not trying to write this as a complaint piece or a b1tch session, but an honest question about coaches and staffs in general.
I have been blessed to spend most of my time coaching as part of great programs with great staffs. Not only did most everyone work hard & smart, but they were quality men who did good for the kids. Even those staffs I was on that werent as good at the football development part, were at least good men who developed quality young men.
However, as of recent I have become 'acquainted' with a staff that I would consider to be bad, in both player development and the way that hold players accountable and develop young men (side note, they have so much talent relative to their league that they win a fair number of games regardless.) I don't want to go into detail, like I said not a complaint session, but overall this is very little coaching or accountability taking place.
I was talking about my issues with the staff with a buddy of mine who has a lot of time in the game and seen it from all angles, his contention is that most staffs are like this. That most places don't really develop football players, and in a lot of ways they let the 'inmates run the asylum' in regards to discipline and accountability.
I've got near 20 year in coaching, and I never really thought of it like that (but like I said I was lucky enough to spend most my time with really good programs). But am wondering if you all see it that way? What percentage, or in general how many coaching staffs out there do you think are doing wrong by these kids to the point you would consider them bad? How many bad coaching staffs are out there?
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Post by IronmanFootball on Nov 10, 2021 14:47:05 GMT -6
I've been coaching about 20 years and in 3 states; public, private, charter; urban, suburban, rural; all demos and SES's. I've seen it all. I would say I got really lucky for my original staff that I learned under. All really good, experienced, well-meaning men. Some real pros too, guys that knew the game and how to coach me to be a better coach.
I also got around a few staffs along the way that didn't give a care about discipline, and/or that treated the players transactionally. Some wanted to win so they let crap fly that I couldn't believe. Others demeaned players and other coaches. Some just never let the junction boys crap go.
I would say the 10-80-10 rule applies.
10% are atrocious
80% are normal
10% are elite
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Post by cqmiller on Nov 10, 2021 15:14:17 GMT -6
I'd agree with IronmanFootballSome guys don't have to do the elite coaching stuff and will win a lot of games because of the athletes they get in the door. That doesn't mean they are in the atrocious category, but not in the elite category either. I would also say it's hard to just give a whole staff a grade. You can have 1 elite guy on staff with a bunch of guys who are willing to learn, listen, and do everything it takes to maximize what that 1 guy is working on that can get a lot done, and you can have multiple guys who are not elite, but all above average that COLLECTIVELY can get the same job done. For me, I judge other staffs on mostly the following: .....1) Organization - You can tell the guys with no organizational structure and those with elite structure pretty easily .....2) Being Sound - I don't care what offense or defense you run... they all work and they all don't work. If you are a let's blitz kinda guy, do you still have gap integrity and clearly teach leverage principles, basics, blocking/tackling, etc... .....3) Character - Are they coaching for the right reasons? This year we had almost 50% of our team make 3.5 GPA at end of Q1, which makes me happier than the 2400 yards and 25 TDs my QB threw for. I still see some staffs where the football is more important than the development of the kids not just in football, but in everything else. I have much more respect for a coach who goes between 3-7 and 7-3 every year, but does everything the right way, than I do for the guy that goes 7-3 or better ONLY because they are LOADED with talent. If I feel like a coach-swap would make either team's record drastically different, then that's an issue. There are a couple of teams here that could pretty much just open the ball bag and let 'em play that could win 8 or more games. Some guys working their ASS off to go 2-8 and that could be the best coaching job in the state, but they won't get credit because of the W/L record. |
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Post by coachcb on Nov 10, 2021 15:58:06 GMT -6
cqmiller hit it on the head. I've only worked on one staff that I would consider truly "bad". There were many issues that all revolved around what cqmiller laid out; poor fundamentals and no organization. But the lack of character made things worse; most of the guys on the staff (including the HC) didn't give a chit about the kids. The kids knew it and responded accordingly. The staff had reasonable success in previous years as they had numbers and a bit of talent. When numbers dipped and talent went away, things got ugly.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2021 17:07:21 GMT -6
“Good” can mean different things.
In some places, a good staff may just be a few dudes who may not know much about football and go 1-9 but they do it while being excellent father figures for their players when no one else will.
In others, a good staff may have more football acumen than many colleges and 3 rounds deep in the playoffs every year, but they may also keep the players at arm’s length and be more “businesslike” or sacrifice ethics for the sake of winning.
I have now coached at 4 different HS under 5 different HCs. I worked on three good staffs who were all “good” in different ways, but two of them were 6-4 teams and the one I enjoyed being on the most went 2-8 that year. I’ve also worked on a pair of awful staffs where politics and ego made football an experience of questionable value for the players.
I once saw it posted on another board: if you make football a fun (and safe) experience and your players know you sincerely care about them, then in their eyes you are a good coach Unfortunately, a lot of HS administration allow other priorities to come before that.
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Post by realdawg on Nov 10, 2021 18:35:36 GMT -6
We played a team that ended up 3-7. We are currently 10-1. You could tell they had a good staff. Their players were going or trying to go to right spot. Very sound in what they did. Very good at fundamentals. They squeezed down blocks. Etc…just didn’t have enough athletes. We beat them by about 30. But it wasn’t an easy 30. We didn’t jump up quick. They made us work for it. We played well and were just better than them.
Conversely. We trade the TE/H a good bit. It’s on film and you can see it. Amazes me how many times in last couple of weeks we’ve done it and the other team doesn’t know how to handle it or just doesn’t move. To me. That’s on the coaches. Including a team we played in playoffs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2021 18:47:19 GMT -6
Truly bad staffs? Not many. But from watching and listening, i tend to be leery of such labels and discssions. More to terrible than just scoreboards, x and o’s and hair stand up emotional crap.
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Post by Defcord on Nov 10, 2021 20:12:48 GMT -6
The term good staff is pretty ambiguous. I try to judge a staff by whether I would want my son to play in that program or not.
I’ve only worked for one where I wouldn’t let him play for the head coach and that staff and I got out of there pretty fast.
Some have been better than others and some have won more games than others as well but at the end of the day if I wouldn’t want my son to be part of the program then I can’t in good faith Coach someone else’s kid in that program.
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CoachSP
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Post by CoachSP on Nov 11, 2021 9:47:44 GMT -6
I typically judge a staff based on organization and fundamentals.
In my experience, it's tough to out-organize the HC if he is not very organized.
Fundamentals speak for themselves.
Record is relative. Some teams around here pay slappies to come to them pre district to pad stats and wins.
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Post by coachks on Nov 11, 2021 10:18:25 GMT -6
I feel as though there are more and more bad staffs every year. In my area there has been a serious increase in "trainer" coaches and their close cousin "social media" coaches.
Guys who post a thank you to every college who walks through the door. Guys who do all sorts of camps, 7 on 7s and combine nonsense to get guys noticed. Guys who post "grind and hustle" videos (during dead periods, holidays ect...) where they are running kids through cones.
But on Fridays the same kids cannot actually play out of a stance, their scheme does not match any of their combine prep garbage, they have no details on the route combinations, DL don't know how to use their hands (despite all the drill work they constantly post).
However, they are loved by parents and admins because they are "getting their kid looked at" - ignoring that half these dudes are getting their palms greased, most of these kids never actually get an offer - and the handful that do almost always end up at home after a semester because they are not prepared to play.
And they go 3-7.
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Nov 11, 2021 10:29:58 GMT -6
I typically judge a staff based on organization and fundamentals. In my experience, it's tough to out-organize the HC if he is not very organized. Fundamentals speak for themselves. Record is relative. Some teams around here pay slappies to come to them pre district to pad stats and wins. "it's tough to out-organize the HC if he is not very organized." This along with expectations and discipline. I've tried it a couple of times and the juice isn't worth the squeeze. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 11, 2021 10:38:27 GMT -6
Allow me to preface this by writing I am not trying to write this as a complaint piece or a b1tch session, but an honest question about coaches and staffs in general. I have been blessed to spend most of my time coaching as part of great programs with great staffs. Not only did most everyone work hard & smart, but they were quality men who did good for the kids. Even those staffs I was on that werent as good at the football development part, were at least good men who developed quality young men. However, as of recent I have become 'acquainted' with a staff that I would consider to be bad, in both player development and the way that hold players accountable and develop young men (side note, they have so much talent relative to their league that they win a fair number of games regardless.) I don't want to go into detail, like I said not a complaint session, but overall this is very little coaching or accountability taking place. I was talking about my issues with the staff with a buddy of mine who has a lot of time in the game and seen it from all angles, his contention is that most staffs are like this. That most places don't really develop football players, and in a lot of ways they let the 'inmates run the asylum' in regards to discipline and accountability. I've got near 20 year in coaching, and I never really thought of it like that (but like I said I was lucky enough to spend most my time with really good programs). But am wondering if you all see it that way? What percentage, or in general how many coaching staffs out there do you think are doing wrong by these kids to the point you would consider them bad? How many bad coaching staffs are out there? Dunning-Kruger Effect |
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Post by carookie on Nov 11, 2021 11:49:22 GMT -6
Allow me to preface this by writing I am not trying to write this as a complaint piece or a b1tch session, but an honest question about coaches and staffs in general. I have been blessed to spend most of my time coaching as part of great programs with great staffs. Not only did most everyone work hard & smart, but they were quality men who did good for the kids. Even those staffs I was on that werent as good at the football development part, were at least good men who developed quality young men. However, as of recent I have become 'acquainted' with a staff that I would consider to be bad, in both player development and the way that hold players accountable and develop young men (side note, they have so much talent relative to their league that they win a fair number of games regardless.) I don't want to go into detail, like I said not a complaint session, but overall this is very little coaching or accountability taking place. I was talking about my issues with the staff with a buddy of mine who has a lot of time in the game and seen it from all angles, his contention is that most staffs are like this. That most places don't really develop football players, and in a lot of ways they let the 'inmates run the asylum' in regards to discipline and accountability. I've got near 20 year in coaching, and I never really thought of it like that (but like I said I was lucky enough to spend most my time with really good programs). But am wondering if you all see it that way? What percentage, or in general how many coaching staffs out there do you think are doing wrong by these kids to the point you would consider them bad? How many bad coaching staffs are out there? Dunning-Kruger Effect I'm not quite sure what the implication here is. Are you implying that I am overestimating my abilities and thinking too highly of myself relative to these other coaches? That my buddy is? Or that the coaching staff I originally mentioned over sold their abilities and were given a job that they werent qualified for? All technically could be examples of Dunning-Kruger |
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 11, 2021 11:51:01 GMT -6
I'm not quite sure what the implication here is. Are you implying that I am overestimating my abilities and thinking too highly of myself relative to these other coaches? That my buddy is? Or that the coaching staff I originally mentioned over sold their abilities and were given a job that they werent qualified for? All technically could be examples of Dunning-Kruger yes |
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Post by coachkeating33 on Nov 11, 2021 11:56:00 GMT -6
only a few coaches I have ever met or coached with were obsessed with football the way i am....only a few-most were very ineffective as coaches
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Post by 44dlcoach on Nov 11, 2021 12:20:33 GMT -6
I don't know who this Dunning-Kruger character is but I guarantee you I would coach circles around him.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 11, 2021 12:31:09 GMT -6
I don't know who this Dunning-Kruger character is but I guarantee you I would coach circles around him. Hahahahahahaha |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Nov 11, 2021 13:06:25 GMT -6
Over the last decade I have had some really amazing coaches. We are lucky to get 3-5 applicants when an opening does come up so finding new coaches is a struggle. However, the last 4 coaches hired have been at the level of the three guys that I consider the core of our staff. This could be the best staff I have ever worked with HS or college. Every single one of us played at the collegiate level, they are all committed to kids and they love coaching- at least 7 of the 10 coaches have volunteered in our program before getting a paid position.
The biggest challenge I see is keeping them. 6 have masters degrees and 4 work out of the district in jobs that have potential for increased responsibility and salary. And coaching as we all know is demanding of time and mental energy.
As for the OP: over the years we have been the bad coaching staff- missed glaringly simple things to prepare the team for that cost us games. Came up with game plans that were incredibly ineffective that set our kids up for poor performance, not held kids accountable to the detriment of the team, we have missed simple organization things- left the headsets on the curb as the bus pulled away, grabbed the "Ball bag" only to find out it was the practice pants bag. But those things were 5 years ago and now our biggest struggles are making game adjustments in the middle of quarters (we have a 6-8 two way players so communicating changes sometimes isn't great).
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 12, 2021 19:26:02 GMT -6
There's a lot of REALLY bad coaching staffs out there.
And it's only going to get worse as people continue to be driven away from education/coaching.
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Post by cwaltsmith on Nov 15, 2021 13:25:01 GMT -6
I have been a part of both great and terrible. The great ones show up early & stay late (and trust me I am not a guy that wants to stay endless hours). they also care about the kids, they give rides, have convos, get involved with the kids. They bad ones, show up 10 minutes before practice, are not organized (as a staff or on the field), they beat the kids out of locker room leaving, and constantly blame kids as the problem. Another thing I hated on the bad staff was lack of accountability. Kids could miss, fail, cuss other kids, & zero done to them. I makes for a terrible work and play environment. Even worse than the bad staffs tho is an admin that allows the bad staff to stay for years and years. I agree wins and losses should not be the only thing evaluated at HS level. To me if a coach puts a competitive team on the field and holds kids accountable, then admin should try to help him and keep him around.
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Post by carookie on Nov 15, 2021 13:50:44 GMT -6
I have been a part of both great and terrible. The great ones show up early & stay late (and trust me I am not a guy that wants to stay endless hours). they also care about the kids, they give rides, have convos, get involved with the kids. They bad ones, show up 10 minutes before practice, are not organized (as a staff or on the field), they beat the kids out of locker room leaving, and constantly blame kids as the problem. Another thing I hated on the bad staff was lack of accountability. Kids could miss, fail, cuss other kids, & zero done to them. I makes for a terrible work and play environment. Even worse than the bad staffs tho is an admin that allows the bad staff to stay for years and years. I agree wins and losses should not be the only thing evaluated at HS level. To me if a coach puts a competitive team on the field and holds kids accountable, then admin should try to help him and keep him around. You brought up a couple things that I have seen recently that I never knew existed but led me to create this post. Until recently, I never knew a coaching staff that would as a whole let kids hang out in the locker room on their own while the coaches left or all hung out elsewhere. |
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Post by jlenwood on Nov 15, 2021 19:14:17 GMT -6
The first coaching staff I was hired into was run by a HC who couldn't find his a$$ with a road map. HIs son coached and a BOE son was another coach. The DC knew the game, was organized and kids respected him, and since we both coached both sides I tended to hang with him most of the time. The HC absolutely wasted 2-3 years of above average talent and set the school (program) back by being a fool.
Next crew I was with had a young HC who wasn't ready. Didn't know what to do or how to coach. Good guy who cared about his players but just wasn't good. A couple of his hires were a disaster as well. He got better and we had some success, but the program fell on some rough times after the talent cleared out of there.
Last coaching staff I was with was the best. A bunch of guys who had known each other for years and all of us got along great. HC knew the game and loved the kids and community. It was truly a pleasure working with these cats. Unfortunately the talent just wasn't there and we struggled for most of his tenure. The thing is, the players loved the coaching staff and played hard until the final whistle every game. It matters who the staff is.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 15, 2021 19:18:49 GMT -6
The great ones show up early & stay late (and trust me I am not a guy that wants to stay endless hours). they also care about the kids, they give rides, have convos, get involved with the kids. They bad ones, show up 10 minutes before practice, are not organized (as a staff or on the field), they beat the kids out of locker room leaving, and constantly blame kids as the problem. Meh. I've been on a couple bad staffs where we spent enormous amounts of time at the school around the kids. I don't disagree with most of your sentiments, but I don't think the time portion of the equation is correct. |
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Post by cwaltsmith on Nov 16, 2021 8:57:37 GMT -6
The great ones show up early & stay late (and trust me I am not a guy that wants to stay endless hours). they also care about the kids, they give rides, have convos, get involved with the kids. They bad ones, show up 10 minutes before practice, are not organized (as a staff or on the field), they beat the kids out of locker room leaving, and constantly blame kids as the problem. Meh. I've been on a couple bad staffs where we spent enormous amounts of time at the school around the kids. I don't disagree with most of your sentiments, but I don't think the time portion of the equation is correct. Oh I am totally on ur side about the time... I hate guys who think they have to be there 24 7 ... but I also hate the guys that complain about being there the whole time they are there. I was on a staff like this recently and they sucked the life out of the team and staff |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2021 9:09:27 GMT -6
Meh. I've been on a couple bad staffs where we spent enormous amounts of time at the school around the kids. I don't disagree with most of your sentiments, but I don't think the time portion of the equation is correct. Oh I am totally on ur side about the time... I hate guys who think they have to be there 24 7 ... but I also hate the guys that complain about being there the whole time they are there. I was on a staff like this recently and they sucked the life out of the team and staff this is obvious, but it depends on why a staff is there. If it is just {censored} times, drinking, that’s one thing it’s another if it is legit work. If you do just huddle info input, 3 games, and there all day and hc and coordinator do game plan.F-Off. |
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Post by cwaltsmith on Nov 16, 2021 9:16:01 GMT -6
Oh I am totally on ur side about the time... I hate guys who think they have to be there 24 7 ... but I also hate the guys that complain about being there the whole time they are there. I was on a staff like this recently and they sucked the life out of the team and staff this is obvious, but it depends on why a staff is there. If it is just {censored} times, drinking, that’s one thing it’s another if it is legit work. If you do just huddle info input, 3 games, and there all day and hc and coordinator do game plan.F-Off. Totally agree... I hate meeting just to meet. IMHO coordinators should have basic plan before meeting starts... present it, get input and ideas from position coaches, and then finalize together. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2021 9:34:49 GMT -6
this is obvious, but it depends on why a staff is there. If it is just {censored} times, drinking, that’s one thing it’s another if it is legit work. If you do just huddle info input, 3 games, and there all day and hc and coordinator do game plan.F-Off. Totally agree... I hate meeting just to meet. IMHO coordinators should have basic plan before meeting starts... present it, get input and ideas from position coaches, and then finalize together. it should never fall on coordinators/hc completely. |
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Post by paydirt18 on Nov 16, 2021 11:26:20 GMT -6
Last coaching staff I was with was the best. A bunch of guys who had known each other for years and all of us got along great. HC knew the game and loved the kids and community. It was truly a pleasure working with these cats. Unfortunately the talent just wasn't there and we struggled for most of his tenure. The thing is, the players loved the coaching staff and played hard until the final whistle every game. It matters who the staff is. I think that is a big key. Staffs that can stick together and grow/mature as a group. The problem is today - somebody mentioned it above- is the number of coach/teachers being driven out of the profession for a variety of reasons. Then you are left with either brand new coaches or guys that will just half - a## it. Also the struggle as a HC is real to build an maintain a staff. I am currently going into year four at this school and am thrilled that I don't have to hire anybody this spring. Consistency is so key for the kids. At my previous stop, in that conference it was common to see new HCs at conference schools essentially every year. You can't expect success like that. Final thought here: at least in Wisconsin, our most successful schools are the ones that have had cohesive staffs for multiple years. |
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Post by cwaltsmith on Nov 16, 2021 12:07:45 GMT -6
Last coaching staff I was with was the best. A bunch of guys who had known each other for years and all of us got along great. HC knew the game and loved the kids and community. It was truly a pleasure working with these cats. Unfortunately the talent just wasn't there and we struggled for most of his tenure. The thing is, the players loved the coaching staff and played hard until the final whistle every game. It matters who the staff is. I think that is a big key. Staffs that can stick together and grow/mature as a group. The problem is today - somebody mentioned it above- is the number of coach/teachers being driven out of the profession for a variety of reasons. Then you are left with either brand new coaches or guys that will just half - a## it. Also the struggle as a HC is real to build an maintain a staff. I am currently going into year four at this school and am thrilled that I don't have to hire anybody this spring. Consistency is so key for the kids. At my previous stop, in that conference it was common to see new HCs at conference schools essentially every year. You can't expect success like that. Final thought here: at least in Wisconsin, our most successful schools are the ones that have had cohesive staffs for multiple years. Agree if they are staying for the right reason... some guys get a job and just stay bc very little is asked of them and they get an extra 4 k to hang out with buddies |
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Post by coachcb on Nov 16, 2021 12:24:48 GMT -6
I think that is a big key. Staffs that can stick together and grow/mature as a group. The problem is today - somebody mentioned it above- is the number of coach/teachers being driven out of the profession for a variety of reasons. Then you are left with either brand new coaches or guys that will just half - a## it. Also the struggle as a HC is real to build an maintain a staff. I am currently going into year four at this school and am thrilled that I don't have to hire anybody this spring. Consistency is so key for the kids. At my previous stop, in that conference it was common to see new HCs at conference schools essentially every year. You can't expect success like that. Final thought here: at least in Wisconsin, our most successful schools are the ones that have had cohesive staffs for multiple years. Agree if they are staying for the right reason... some guys get a job and just stay bc very little is asked of them and they get an extra 4 k to hang out with buddies
Yup. In my last HC gig (which will absolutely be my LAST) I inherited a guy who had been coaching at the school for 15 years. I was told that he was an "integral part of the football program". He was one of the laziest coaches I have ever seen and pretty much ended up as an assistant to an assistant by Week 4.
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