|
|
Post by echoofthewhistle on Oct 7, 2021 9:06:11 GMT -6
We hold so much in our secondary that they can’t call it every time. We had a play in one game where four receivers were at four different officials after the play asking for flags. When I coached the offensive it was the same way. If you have matchups that you don’t have the edge in then you have to create it with holding on the offensive line and secondary both. Officials are already the most hated group in the world so once you bite the bullet on a couple really bad holds early, you basically can get away with anything but murder at the point of attack. And away from the ball is basically the Wild West. The officials don’t want to get booed all night for never putting their flag in their pocket and they also don’t want to get home at midnight. Yep the problem with human officials and "managing the game." It is a major issue within the NHL, they also like to keep penalties equal on both sides even if one breaking the rules more. Yes, I know the opposite is penalty fest, but then maybe players and coaches might adjust. Instead having this be a moral dilemma. |
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on Oct 7, 2021 9:47:48 GMT -6
Is it just me, or have refs in your area not been calling holding as much anymore? I feel as if I have seen more O-line grab and take downs in this half season than I had seen in any full season before. I know the NFL made a conscious decision to be more liberal in what they allow, and though that has no direct impact on what happens for most of us, maybe the officials are seeing that and taking a queue? Full disclosure, I am a defensive coach foremost, so maybe I am just seeing things, but I see it a lot when our guys get away with it too. Is this just me, or is there something going on? My outside WR gets called for holding every time a bubble breaks for 50. My DT can be tackled by 3 OL and it's a no call |
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Oct 7, 2021 16:33:39 GMT -6
Is it just me, or have refs in your area not been calling holding as much anymore? I feel as if I have seen more O-line grab and take downs in this half season than I had seen in any full season before. I know the NFL made a conscious decision to be more liberal in what they allow, and though that has no direct impact on what happens for most of us, maybe the officials are seeing that and taking a queue? Full disclosure, I am a defensive coach foremost, so maybe I am just seeing things, but I see it a lot when our guys get away with it too. Is this just me, or is there something going on? My outside WR gets called for holding every time a bubble breaks for 50. My DT can be tackled by 3 OL and it's a no call Stop calling the bubble and run it up the middle where you can hold like a champion. |
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Oct 7, 2021 16:45:09 GMT -6
We hold so much in our secondary that they can’t call it every time. We had a play in one game where four receivers were at four different officials after the play asking for flags. When I coached the offensive it was the same way. If you have matchups that you don’t have the edge in then you have to create it with holding on the offensive line and secondary both. Officials are already the most hated group in the world so once you bite the bullet on a couple really bad holds early, you basically can get away with anything but murder at the point of attack. And away from the ball is basically the Wild West. The officials don’t want to get booed all night for never putting their flag in their pocket and they also don’t want to get home at midnight. Not gonna lie coach that is straight up shady/unsportsmanlike, and absolutely against the spirit of the rules and game. I mean, that's basically straight up cheating...As far as the life lessons aspect, if you care about that sort of thing, what kind of example is that setting, and what life lesson is that teaching your players? That if you think you cant win straight up, you resort to blatant cheating? I get if you accidentally hold sometimes, or if an OL has a pass rusher screaming down on the QB and you dont think you can stop them straight up, then you should probably protect your QB for the sake of the QB's physical safety, but other than that, that's phuked IMHO. I can live with that. I disagree with you though. We are playing within the rules because we willing accept the penalty. And we aren’t putting kids safety in danger. I will give you an example that I am uncomfortable with. We used to cut pullers. It’s now illegal. It could help us at times today and it is still suggested by a coach every time we face a team with a guard that kicks ass when he pulls. I refuse to do that because it could potentially harm a kid. Either way we all have lines. You set yours at protecting the qb. I set mine at giving my kids a chance to compete. |
|
|
|
Post by tripsclosed on Oct 7, 2021 17:05:36 GMT -6
Not gonna lie coach that is straight up shady/unsportsmanlike, and absolutely against the spirit of the rules and game. I mean, that's basically straight up cheating...As far as the life lessons aspect, if you care about that sort of thing, what kind of example is that setting, and what life lesson is that teaching your players? That if you think you cant win straight up, you resort to blatant cheating? I get if you accidentally hold sometimes, or if an OL has a pass rusher screaming down on the QB and you dont think you can stop them straight up, then you should probably protect your QB for the sake of the QB's physical safety, but other than that, that's phuked IMHO. I can live with that. I disagree with you though. We are playing within the rules because we willing accept the penalty. And we aren’t putting kids safety in danger. I will give you an example that I am uncomfortable with. We used to cut pullers. It’s now illegal. It could help us at times today and it is still suggested by a coach every time we face a team with a guard that kicks ass when he pulls. I refuse to do that because it could potentially harm a kid. Either way we all have lines. You set yours at protecting the qb. I set mine at giving my kids a chance to compete. I hope i didnt come off like a total condescending, sanctimonious, self-righteous jack@$$. I probably should not have came at you the way i did. That's good you do care about the safety |
|
|
|
Post by waddles52 on Oct 7, 2021 17:32:42 GMT -6
Three games in, we haven't been called for holding in the box yet, but have been called for holding on toss/outside zone two-three times per game. Some legit, some not. Feels like that's been the trend in our area the last few years.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Oct 7, 2021 17:43:29 GMT -6
Not gonna lie coach that is straight up shady/unsportsmanlike, and absolutely against the spirit of the rules and game. I mean, that's basically straight up cheating...As far as the life lessons aspect, if you care about that sort of thing, what kind of example is that setting, and what life lesson is that teaching your players? That if you think you cant win straight up, you resort to blatant cheating? I get if you accidentally hold sometimes, or if an OL has a pass rusher screaming down on the QB and you dont think you can stop them straight up, then you should probably protect your QB for the sake of the QB's physical safety, but other than that, that's phuked IMHO. I can live with that. I disagree with you though. We are playing within the rules because we willing accept the penalty. And we aren’t putting kids safety in danger. I will give you an example that I am uncomfortable with. We used to cut pullers. It’s now illegal. It could help us at times today and it is still suggested by a coach every time we face a team with a guard that kicks ass when he pulls. I refuse to do that because it could potentially harm a kid. Either way we all have lines. You set yours at protecting the qb. I set mine at giving my kids a chance to compete. But coach if we rationalize stuff like that though, couldn't I also rationalize something like having underclassmen who would otherwise not participate being sent into a game to start fights with opponents star players in an attempt to get them kicked out? Not really putting anyone in danger, giving your team a chance to compete, willing to accept the penalty... Just another perspective. |
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Oct 7, 2021 17:55:01 GMT -6
I can live with that. I disagree with you though. We are playing within the rules because we willing accept the penalty. And we aren’t putting kids safety in danger. I will give you an example that I am uncomfortable with. We used to cut pullers. It’s now illegal. It could help us at times today and it is still suggested by a coach every time we face a team with a guard that kicks ass when he pulls. I refuse to do that because it could potentially harm a kid. Either way we all have lines. You set yours at protecting the qb. I set mine at giving my kids a chance to compete. But coach if we rationalize stuff like that though, couldn't I also rationalize something like having underclassmen who would otherwise not participate being sent into a game to start fights with opponents star players in an attempt to get them kicked out? Not really putting anyone in danger, giving your team a chance to compete, willing to accept the penalty... Just another perspective. You absolutely could. I would not move my line that far though, We all move the line to where we are comfortable. Some will follow the spirit of all rules 100%. Some will do whatever they can regardless of the rules. Most are probably somewhere in the middle. I stated my line. I’m comfortable with it. I could probably be reasoned out of it but it would take a lot. |
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Oct 7, 2021 17:58:35 GMT -6
I can live with that. I disagree with you though. We are playing within the rules because we willing accept the penalty. And we aren’t putting kids safety in danger. I will give you an example that I am uncomfortable with. We used to cut pullers. It’s now illegal. It could help us at times today and it is still suggested by a coach every time we face a team with a guard that kicks ass when he pulls. I refuse to do that because it could potentially harm a kid. Either way we all have lines. You set yours at protecting the qb. I set mine at giving my kids a chance to compete. I hope i didnt come off like a total condescending, sanctimonious, self-righteous jack@$$. I probably should not have came at you the way i did. That's good you do care about the safety I wasn’t offended. We just have different opinions. |
|
|
|
Post by bleefb on Oct 7, 2021 18:24:59 GMT -6
He must have grown up watching the Seahawks play defense since Pete Carroll arrived.  |
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Oct 8, 2021 8:04:45 GMT -6
Not gonna lie coach that is straight up shady/unsportsmanlike, and absolutely against the spirit of the rules and game. I mean, that's basically straight up cheating...As far as the life lessons aspect, if you care about that sort of thing, what kind of example is that setting, and what life lesson is that teaching your players? That if you think you cant win straight up, you resort to blatant cheating? I get if you accidentally hold sometimes, or if an OL has a pass rusher screaming down on the QB and you dont think you can stop them straight up, then you should probably protect your QB for the sake of the QB's physical safety, but other than that, that's phuked IMHO. I can live with that. I disagree with you though. We are playing within the rules because we willing accept the penalty. And we aren’t putting kids safety in danger. I will give you an example that I am uncomfortable with. We used to cut pullers. It’s now illegal. It could help us at times today and it is still suggested by a coach every time we face a team with a guard that kicks ass when he pulls. I refuse to do that because it could potentially harm a kid. But you're allowed to make contact below the waist on the initial move at the snap. So if you have a DL submarining an OL next to the puller, and the puller trips over him, isn't that legal? Or do your linemen have to evaporate when they're below waist level, and then rematerialize on their feet? If you expect that kickass guard to pull on a given down, you can also cut him at the snap directly, below the waist. And crab blocking, where the initial contact is at waist level, is still legal everywhere on the field. |
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Oct 8, 2021 8:23:38 GMT -6
I can live with that. I disagree with you though. We are playing within the rules because we willing accept the penalty. And we aren’t putting kids safety in danger. I will give you an example that I am uncomfortable with. We used to cut pullers. It’s now illegal. It could help us at times today and it is still suggested by a coach every time we face a team with a guard that kicks ass when he pulls. I refuse to do that because it could potentially harm a kid. But you're allowed to make contact below the waist on the initial move at the snap. So if you have a DL submarining an OL next to the puller, and the puller trips over him, isn't that legal? Or do your linemen have to evaporate when they're below waist level, and then rematerialize on their feet? If you expect that kickass guard to pull on a given down, you can also cut him at the snap directly, below the waist. And crab blocking, where the initial contact is at waist level, is still legal everywhere on the field. I know what you are saying. That is not what I was talking about. Plus if you have a good off player your puller should still always be clean but that’s a different discussion. I’m not opposed to cutting with the dl initially at the LOS. But once that puller has crossed the formation and I’m not on board cutting him with a DE or LB. |
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Oct 8, 2021 9:18:04 GMT -6
I can live with that. I disagree with you though. We are playing within the rules because we willing accept the penalty. And we aren’t putting kids safety in danger. I will give you an example that I am uncomfortable with. We used to cut pullers. It’s now illegal. It could help us at times today and it is still suggested by a coach every time we face a team with a guard that kicks ass when he pulls. I refuse to do that because it could potentially harm a kid. But you're allowed to make contact below the waist on the initial move at the snap. So if you have a DL submarining an OL next to the puller, and the puller trips over him, isn't that legal? Or do your linemen have to evaporate when they're below waist level, and then rematerialize on their feet? If you expect that kickass guard to pull on a given down, you can also cut him at the snap directly, below the waist. And crab blocking, where the initial contact is at waist level, is still legal everywhere on the field. @defcord responded, but I want to make sure you understand what he is talking about. The puller has pulled and is about to kick out a DE or OLB or C. The DE/OLB/C then cuts him. He is not talking about cutting a OL at the snap. |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Oct 8, 2021 11:14:09 GMT -6
We'll stop teaching our OL to hold when the rest of the state stops doing so as well. It's not a competitive advantage for us; it's leveling the playing field. I feel like a saint compared to some of my counterparts; at least we're trying to hide the fact we're holding the defender..
|
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on Oct 8, 2021 12:05:07 GMT -6
My outside WR gets called for holding every time a bubble breaks for 50. My DT can be tackled by 3 OL and it's a no call Stop calling the bubble and run it up the middle where you can hold like a champion. We slap a "hold like a champion today" sign as we head out to the field but the stupid WR's can read apparently. |
|
|
|
Post by blb on Oct 8, 2021 12:43:56 GMT -6
HS coaches - supposedly teaching "Educational Athletics" - should not be teaching kids to violate the rules.
Officiating Football, even at HS level, is tough.
There is a shortage of officials in our state and I suspect beyond.
As coaches do not make it harder than it is.
Not good for the game.
Part of your responsibility as coaches.
|
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Oct 8, 2021 13:07:39 GMT -6
But you're allowed to make contact below the waist on the initial move at the snap. So if you have a DL submarining an OL next to the puller, and the puller trips over him, isn't that legal? Or do your linemen have to evaporate when they're below waist level, and then rematerialize on their feet? If you expect that kickass guard to pull on a given down, you can also cut him at the snap directly, below the waist. And crab blocking, where the initial contact is at waist level, is still legal everywhere on the field. @defcord responded, but I want to make sure you understand what he is talking about. The puller has pulled and is about to kick out a DE or OLB or C. The DE/OLB/C then cuts him. He is not talking about cutting a OL at the snap. This is worded much clearer than the rambling I put out there. |
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Oct 8, 2021 13:10:02 GMT -6
HS coaches - supposedly teaching "Educational Athletics" - should not be teaching kids to violate the rules. Officiating Football, even at HS level, is tough. There is a shortage of officials in our state and I suspect beyond. As coaches do not make it harder than it is. Not good for the game. Part of your responsibility as coaches. This is a pretty good reason why not to do it. I’m probably not going to change my view but I will now feel bad about it more. |
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Oct 9, 2021 20:47:53 GMT -6
But you're allowed to make contact below the waist on the initial move at the snap. So if you have a DL submarining an OL next to the puller, and the puller trips over him, isn't that legal? Or do your linemen have to evaporate when they're below waist level, and then rematerialize on their feet? If you expect that kickass guard to pull on a given down, you can also cut him at the snap directly, below the waist. And crab blocking, where the initial contact is at waist level, is still legal everywhere on the field. @defcord responded, but I want to make sure you understand what he is talking about. The puller has pulled and is about to kick out a DE or OLB or C. The DE/OLB/C then cuts him. Does the hole look any worse for the runner if the player who was to be kicked out succeeds in cutting the kickout blocker? Is this a cutting technique where the cutter uses the top of one or both shoulders (instead of the side of his body) and then slides past his target? Like a delayed submarine technique? Because that's the only way I could imagine cutting the blocker at the POA that would be at all advantageous, and usually not even then, compared to making a pile by meeting the puller and sliding down him. |
|
|
|
Post by carookie on Oct 9, 2021 23:49:12 GMT -6
HS coaches - supposedly teaching "Educational Athletics" - should not be teaching kids to violate the rules. Officiating Football, even at HS level, is tough. There is a shortage of officials in our state and I suspect beyond. As coaches do not make it harder than it is. Not good for the game. Part of your responsibility as coaches. I don't even see it as a violation of the rules anymore, I look at it as a de facto change in the rules. Its not gaming the system, or taking advantage of poor refs, its playing within how the game has evolved (or devolved). |
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Oct 10, 2021 5:16:27 GMT -6
@defcord responded, but I want to make sure you understand what he is talking about. The puller has pulled and is about to kick out a DE or OLB or C. The DE/OLB/C then cuts him. Does the hole look any worse for the runner if the player who was to be kicked out succeeds in cutting the kickout blocker? Is this a cutting technique where the cutter uses the top of one or both shoulders (instead of the side of his body) and then slides past his target? Like a delayed submarine technique? Because that's the only way I could imagine cutting the blocker at the POA that would be at all advantageous, and usually not even then, compared to making a pile by meeting the puller and sliding down him. It accomplishes multiple things. First it sets the edge and forces the ball carrier to get vertical into the heart of the defense in contained spaces or the ball carrier has to bubble behind the pile allowing the pursuit of the defense and force players a better opportunity to make the play near the Los. The second thing it does is create timidity in the puller so that on further pulls he is not as effective in attacking the defender. Instead of a kickout that moves the defenders position wider the defender can squeeze and move the less aggressive puller and eliminate the hole in its entirety or at lt least limit it from opening giving the inside defender a better opportunity to make the play when the ball goes through the hole. |
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Oct 11, 2021 11:25:01 GMT -6
Does the hole look any worse for the runner if the player who was to be kicked out succeeds in cutting the kickout blocker? Is this a cutting technique where the cutter uses the top of one or both shoulders (instead of the side of his body) and then slides past his target? Like a delayed submarine technique? Because that's the only way I could imagine cutting the blocker at the POA that would be at all advantageous, and usually not even then, compared to making a pile by meeting the puller and sliding down him. It accomplishes multiple things. First it sets the edge and forces the ball carrier to get vertical into the heart of the defense in contained spaces or the ball carrier has to bubble behind the pile allowing the pursuit of the defense and force players a better opportunity to make the play near the Los. The second thing it does is create timidity in the puller so that on further pulls he is not as effective in attacking the defender. Instead of a kickout that moves the defenders position wider the defender can squeeze and move the less aggressive puller and eliminate the hole in its entirety or at lt least limit it from opening giving the inside defender a better opportunity to make the play when the ball goes through the hole. The ballcarrier's coached to cut behind the blocker's butt. Does it matter if the blocker's butt is on the ground facing upward? Are blockers really intimidated by getting a free ride onto the opponent's back? No heavy lifting there. |
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Oct 11, 2021 11:31:09 GMT -6
It accomplishes multiple things. First it sets the edge and forces the ball carrier to get vertical into the heart of the defense in contained spaces or the ball carrier has to bubble behind the pile allowing the pursuit of the defense and force players a better opportunity to make the play near the Los. The second thing it does is create timidity in the puller so that on further pulls he is not as effective in attacking the defender. Instead of a kickout that moves the defenders position wider the defender can squeeze and move the less aggressive puller and eliminate the hole in its entirety or at lt least limit it from opening giving the inside defender a better opportunity to make the play when the ball goes through the hole. The ballcarrier's coached to cut behind the blocker's butt. Does it matter if the blocker's butt is on the ground facing upward? Are blockers really intimidated by getting a free ride onto the opponent's back? No heavy lifting there. Have you ever pulled steam ahead on a kickout and gotten cut? It’s not a pleasant experience. |
|
|
|
Post by bulldogsdc on Oct 11, 2021 11:39:34 GMT -6
I can live with that. I disagree with you though. We are playing within the rules because we willing accept the penalty. And we aren’t putting kids safety in danger. I will give you an example that I am uncomfortable with. We used to cut pullers. It’s now illegal. It could help us at times today and it is still suggested by a coach every time we face a team with a guard that kicks ass when he pulls. I refuse to do that because it could potentially harm a kid. But you're allowed to make contact below the waist on the initial move at the snap. So if you have a DL submarining an OL next to the puller, and the puller trips over him, isn't that legal? Or do your linemen have to evaporate when they're below waist level, and then rematerialize on their feet? If you expect that kickass guard to pull on a given down, you can also cut him at the snap directly, below the waist. And crab blocking, where the initial contact is at waist level, is still legal everywhere on the field. No animal drills, Bob. |
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Oct 11, 2021 11:53:23 GMT -6
It accomplishes multiple things. First it sets the edge and forces the ball carrier to get vertical into the heart of the defense in contained spaces or the ball carrier has to bubble behind the pile allowing the pursuit of the defense and force players a better opportunity to make the play near the Los. The second thing it does is create timidity in the puller so that on further pulls he is not as effective in attacking the defender. Instead of a kickout that moves the defenders position wider the defender can squeeze and move the less aggressive puller and eliminate the hole in its entirety or at lt least limit it from opening giving the inside defender a better opportunity to make the play when the ball goes through the hole. The ballcarrier's coached to cut behind the blocker's butt. Does it matter if the blocker's butt is on the ground facing upward? Are blockers really intimidated by getting a free ride onto the opponent's back? No heavy lifting there. Bob, you are out of your area of expertise here. An OLB/DE/C can go take out the legs of the FB on power or a guard on buck sweep and there is no hole, just a pile. |
|
|
|
Post by bobgoodman on Oct 12, 2021 11:59:37 GMT -6
The ballcarrier's coached to cut behind the blocker's butt. Does it matter if the blocker's butt is on the ground facing upward? Are blockers really intimidated by getting a free ride onto the opponent's back? No heavy lifting there. Bob, you are out of your area of expertise here. An OLB/DE/C can go take out the legs of the FB on power or a guard on buck sweep and there is no hole, just a pile. If the player they take out was leading, sure. If they're kicking out, then all I can figure is that your average result from a kickout block must be better than I usually see, because what I usually see is a crack the runner has to cut thru at the right moment. Once in a while the kickout blocker gets to earhole the edge defender and send him reeling, but usually the scene doesn't look that great for the runner. As to how it feels for a blocker to get cut down, it's no different from ballcarriers being tackled many times a game. |
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Oct 12, 2021 14:14:04 GMT -6
Bob, you are out of your area of expertise here. An OLB/DE/C can go take out the legs of the FB on power or a guard on buck sweep and there is no hole, just a pile. If the player they take out was leading, sure. If they're kicking out, then all I can figure is that your average result from a kickout block must be better than I usually see, because what I usually see is a crack the runner has to cut thru at the right moment. Once in a while the kickout blocker gets to earhole the edge defender and send him reeling, but usually the scene doesn't look that great for the runner. As to how it feels for a blocker to get cut down, it's no different from ballcarriers being tackled many times a game. o k |
|
|
|
Post by coachks on Oct 13, 2021 9:49:56 GMT -6
Officials are currently too worried about excessive eyeblack, shirt tails and any display of emotion they can consider taunting to actually officiate the game.
|
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Oct 13, 2021 10:29:21 GMT -6
Officials are currently too worried about excessive eyeblack, shirt tails and any display of emotion they can consider taunting to actually officiate the game. Don't forget sideline infractions and penalizing/kicking out coaches and fans. |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Oct 13, 2021 10:34:27 GMT -6
Officials are currently too worried about excessive eyeblack, shirt tails and any display of emotion they can consider taunting to actually officiate the game.
Yup, yet another year where the OL has zero holding calls but I've been flagged for hollering out of the booth.
Lol.....
|
|
