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Post by 19delta on Aug 24, 2021 16:07:44 GMT -6
What's the difference between NCAA D3 and NAIA football programs? Are they comparable?
Are there NAIA Division 1 football programs? Or are all NAIA football programs Division 2?
Why would a college join the NAIA rather than the NCAA?
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Post by fantom on Aug 24, 2021 16:23:57 GMT -6
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 24, 2021 17:11:27 GMT -6
Athletic scholarships.
That's all I can think of.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 24, 2021 17:50:06 GMT -6
Athletic scholarships. That's all I can think of. Travel might be another consideration. If being in one association would limit travel significantly, that might be a reason. Louisiana College recently moved from NCAA DIII to NAIA and the stated reasons were the ability to offer athletic scholarships as well as cultivating more natural rivalries.
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Post by freezeoption on Aug 24, 2021 18:36:08 GMT -6
D3 doesn't offer scholarships. I think you can get some grants and work study. NAIA use to have 2 divisions 1 and 2 but don't know if it still as that way. They offer scholarships. I know Wisconsin-Lacrosse use to be D3 and that is a big school. The HAAC is NAIA conference. Iowa has a lot of NAIA schools and D3 schools.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2021 19:16:33 GMT -6
What's the difference between NCAA D3 and NAIA football programs? Are they comparable? Are there NAIA Division 1 football programs? Or are all NAIA football programs Division 2? Why would a college join the NAIA rather than the NCAA? Remember that these are completely separate associations with different rules and bylaws that apply to athletics and the way they are ran and administered across all sports. This is more about money and administration than the actual athletics It is significantly cheaper to participate in NAIA competition: according to NAIA materials it costs colleges 40% less to compete compared to an NCAA school and it is much cheaper to be competitive in NAIA than in D3. Many NAIA schools are small, private schools with very modest endowments who run their football programs as money-making tools to recruit large numbers of kids to enroll and pay tuition, rather than trying to make their money off merchandise, tickets, and TV like NCAA schools. The athletic ability and level of coaching in D3 and NAIA, from what I’ve seen, are fairly comparable. A big part of the choice is also likely geography: if you’re a small college who’s close to a bunch of small D3 schools and has some rivalries, it makes more sense to compete in the NCAA, but if those schools are NAIA schools near you that would be the obvious choice. www.naia.org/why-naia/naia-vs-ncaa/indexwww.naia.org/why-naia/naia-vs-ncaa/closer-look-diii
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Post by **** on Aug 24, 2021 20:55:20 GMT -6
NAIA talent level is like d2 not d3
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Post by coachorm on Aug 25, 2021 8:44:01 GMT -6
I cannot say this is definite all the way across the board, but my experience had been that D3 seems to often have higher academic standards for recruits to be considered. Most D3 schools that send emails looking for kids want a 3.3 or higher GPA and a 25 or higher on the ACT. The NAIA schools overall have not had as high of an academic standard requirement.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 25, 2021 9:03:56 GMT -6
I cannot say this is definite all the way across the board, but my experience had been that D3 seems to often have higher academic standards for recruits to be considered. Most D3 schools that send emails looking for kids want a 3.3 or higher GPA and a 25 or higher on the ACT. The NAIA schools overall have not had as high of an academic standard requirement. Depends on the school for D3. Those standards are really high for the average D3 school in Illinois. At least the ones I have experience with.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 26, 2021 9:53:32 GMT -6
I don't know if this is true in other areas of the country but NAIA schools in this neck of the woods (Montana, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota) have a geographic advantage over D2 programs. Many of the schools in these four states went into NAIA conferences so that they wouldn't have to travel as much. The one D2 program in Montana is in a West Coast conference that includes travel to Alaska..
edit: IME, NAIA level talent is comparable to D2.
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Post by fantom on Aug 26, 2021 10:23:24 GMT -6
I don't know if this is true in other areas of the country but NAIA schools in this neck of the woods (Montana, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota) have a geographic advantage over D2 programs. Many of the schools in these four states went into NAIA conferences so that they wouldn't have to travel as much. The one D2 program in Montana is in a West Coast conference that includes travel to Alaska..
edit: IME, NAIA level talent is comparable to D2.
And it's the other way around on the East coast.
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CoachK
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Post by CoachK on Aug 27, 2021 12:20:47 GMT -6
Depends on where you are. If you're on the west coast, then D3s are just a bunch of nerds running around. If you're upper Midwest, D3s are as good small college ball as you'll find. I don't know about the east coast.
NAIA teams are as good as the school wants them to be. There is a central office/governing body in NAIA but I'm pretty sure it's just some old lady with a rubber stamp. Everything is self-governed by the institutions and the rulebook is a few suggestions written on a napkin. You get some really wild swings because of it. I've seen some of the worst footabll at hte NAIA level, and teams full of trained killers. YMMV.
D2 is similar to NAIA in terms of top-end talent and it's pretty balanced at the middle levels of competition. The rules are stricter, the programs are largely better funded and more well-run, but the talent isn't far off from what you get at NAIA. The big difference is academics, which are much more important in the NCAA than NAIA.
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CoachK
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Posts: 185
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Post by CoachK on Aug 27, 2021 12:31:03 GMT -6
I don't know if this is true in other areas of the country but NAIA schools in this neck of the woods (Montana, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota) have a geographic advantage over D2 programs. Many of the schools in these four states went into NAIA conferences so that they wouldn't have to travel as much. The one D2 program in Montana is in a West Coast conference that includes travel to Alaska..
edit: IME, NAIA level talent is comparable to D2.
Billings? They don't have a football program. If they did I bet they'd be Frontier because of travel. Southern Oregon was our only real journey, aside from the time we went to Phoenix. I coached at a Frontier school for awhile. That conference is LEGIT. I wish more California kids were willing to brave winter because that ball is 100% better than the slapdick JUCO programs most of them go to. I was at a D2 in the RMAC for awhile, too, and we just recruited Colorado like everyone else, with a little Utah/California/Wyoming mixed in. The middle of the country may not have a ton of D1 guys but they can crank out the D2 level guys.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 28, 2021 6:52:50 GMT -6
What's the difference between NCAA D3 and NAIA football programs? Are they comparable? Are there NAIA Division 1 football programs? Or are all NAIA football programs Division 2? Why would a college join the NAIA rather than the NCAA? If I can piggie back a bit on the thread and ask something that may be less than well received here on this site...why would a student choose to go to an NAIA or NCAA D3 school TO PLAY FOOTBALL? Note, my question is asked in a specific manner. In our perverted recruiting environment where it seems the goal is to be able to post a twitter message saying "blessed to receive" I have noticed an increasing number of kids posting that they were blessed to receive "offers" to schools in which attendance doesn't make a great deal of sense. For example a kid from the south bayous of Louisiana being "blessed to receive" an offer MidAmerica Nazarene University in Kansas, or multiple examples of kids "receiving offers" from a private D3 school a little more local (about 4/5 hours away) with a nice $30,000 a semester price tag. I think it is a travesty for those kids to go to schools like that to play football. Now, if that kid was already planning on going to those schools, and football is an option--that is different. I don't know how often that is the case.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 28, 2021 8:37:53 GMT -6
What's the difference between NCAA D3 and NAIA football programs? Are they comparable? Are there NAIA Division 1 football programs? Or are all NAIA football programs Division 2? Why would a college join the NAIA rather than the NCAA? If I can piggie back a bit on the thread and ask something that may be less than well received here on this site...why would a student choose to go to an NAIA or NCAA D3 school TO PLAY FOOTBALL? Note, my question is asked in a specific manner. In our perverted recruiting environment where it seems the goal is to be able to post a twitter message saying "blessed to receive" I have noticed an increasing number of kids posting that they were blessed to receive "offers" to schools in which attendance doesn't make a great deal of sense. For example a kid from the south bayous of Louisiana being "blessed to receive" an offer MidAmerica Nazarene University in Kansas, or multiple examples of kids "receiving offers" from a private D3 school a little more local (about 4/5 hours away) with a nice $30,000 a semester price tag. I think it is a travesty for those kids to go to schools like that to play football. Now, if that kid was already planning on going to those schools, and football is an option--that is different. I don't know how often that is the case. Yeah. I know of quite a few kids who went to a school simply to play football and it didn't work out. Either the kid found out they weren't good enough to play, the school didn't have the academic program they wanted or school was simply too expensive. My kid is attending a D3 school and playing football. However, the school has the degree program he wants and he has a substantial academic scholarship.
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Post by fantom on Aug 28, 2021 8:59:36 GMT -6
What's the difference between NCAA D3 and NAIA football programs? Are they comparable? Are there NAIA Division 1 football programs? Or are all NAIA football programs Division 2? Why would a college join the NAIA rather than the NCAA? If I can piggie back a bit on the thread and ask something that may be less than well received here on this site...why would a student choose to go to an NAIA or NCAA D3 school TO PLAY FOOTBALL? Note, my question is asked in a specific manner. In our perverted recruiting environment where it seems the goal is to be able to post a twitter message saying "blessed to receive" I have noticed an increasing number of kids posting that they were blessed to receive "offers" to schools in which attendance doesn't make a great deal of sense. For example a kid from the south bayous of Louisiana being "blessed to receive" an offer MidAmerica Nazarene University in Kansas, or multiple examples of kids "receiving offers" from a private D3 school a little more local (about 4/5 hours away) with a nice $30,000 a semester price tag. I think it is a travesty for those kids to go to schools like that to play football. Now, if that kid was already planning on going to those schools, and football is an option--that is different. I don't know how often that is the case. It may be useful to remember that the main difference between NAIA and D3 is scholarships. I agree that driving past dozens of D3 schools to get to another in a different region makes no sense. Doing so for a scholarship does.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 28, 2021 9:02:50 GMT -6
If I can piggie back a bit on the thread and ask something that may be less than well received here on this site...why would a student choose to go to an NAIA or NCAA D3 school TO PLAY FOOTBALL? Note, my question is asked in a specific manner. In our perverted recruiting environment where it seems the goal is to be able to post a twitter message saying "blessed to receive" I have noticed an increasing number of kids posting that they were blessed to receive "offers" to schools in which attendance doesn't make a great deal of sense. For example a kid from the south bayous of Louisiana being "blessed to receive" an offer MidAmerica Nazarene University in Kansas, or multiple examples of kids "receiving offers" from a private D3 school a little more local (about 4/5 hours away) with a nice $30,000 a semester price tag. I think it is a travesty for those kids to go to schools like that to play football. Now, if that kid was already planning on going to those schools, and football is an option--that is different. I don't know how often that is the case. Yeah. I know of quite a few kids who went to a school simply to play football and it didn't work out. Either the kid found out they weren't good enough to play, the school didn't have the academic program they wanted or school was simply too expensive. My kid is attending a D3 school and playing football. However, the school has the degree program he wants and he has a substantial academic scholarship. Exactly. It sounds like football is an extra-curricular just like if someone want to a school and chose to participate in any other student organization available (albeit football probably has a substantial time requirement). That is how I think things should be handled.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 28, 2021 9:43:03 GMT -6
I don't know if this is true in other areas of the country but NAIA schools in this neck of the woods (Montana, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota) have a geographic advantage over D2 programs. Many of the schools in these four states went into NAIA conferences so that they wouldn't have to travel as much. The one D2 program in Montana is in a West Coast conference that includes travel to Alaska..
edit: IME, NAIA level talent is comparable to D2.
Billings? They don't have a football program. If they did I bet they'd be Frontier because of travel. Southern Oregon was our only real journey, aside from the time we went to Phoenix. I coached at a Frontier school for awhile. That conference is LEGIT. I wish more California kids were willing to brave winter because that ball is 100% better than the slapdick JUCO programs most of them go to. I was at a D2 in the RMAC for awhile, too, and we just recruited Colorado like everyone else, with a little Utah/California/Wyoming mixed in. The middle of the country may not have a ton of D1 guys but they can crank out the D2 level guys. Billings has a D2 school that doesn't football but they play basketball, volleyball, track, soccer, etc.. Yep, the NAIA Frontier conference plays some great football.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 28, 2021 18:00:41 GMT -6
Yeah. I know of quite a few kids who went to a school simply to play football and it didn't work out. Either the kid found out they weren't good enough to play, the school didn't have the academic program they wanted or school was simply too expensive. My kid is attending a D3 school and playing football. However, the school has the degree program he wants and he has a substantial academic scholarship. Exactly. It sounds like football is an extra-curricular just like if someone want to a school and chose to participate in any other student organization available (albeit football probably has a substantial time requirement). That is how I think things should be handled. We visited about 3-4 D3 schools. It appears that every D3 school has a "(Insert Mascot Name) Scholarship" that has some minor academic requirements and are awarded to top students who are going to play sports at the school. The catch is that not everyone gets the scholarship. That probably explains the D3 football teams that have 125+ players on the roster. The kids who aren't getting the (Insert Mascot Name) Scholarship are probably subsidizing the kids who are getting the IMN Scholarship. 😆
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 28, 2021 18:10:36 GMT -6
Exactly. It sounds like football is an extra-curricular just like if someone want to a school and chose to participate in any other student organization available (albeit football probably has a substantial time requirement). That is how I think things should be handled. We visited about 3-4 D3 schools. It appears that every D3 school has a "(Insert Mascot Name) Scholarship" that has some minor academic requirements and are awarded to top students who are going to play sports at the school. The catch is that not everyone gets the scholarship. That probably explains the D3 football teams that have 125+ players on the roster. The kids who aren't getting the (Insert Mascot Name) Scholarship are probably subsidizing the kids who are getting the IMN Scholarship. 😆 Do you recall what the final cost would have been at those schools with and without schollie?
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Post by 19delta on Aug 28, 2021 18:37:13 GMT -6
We visited about 3-4 D3 schools. It appears that every D3 school has a "(Insert Mascot Name) Scholarship" that has some minor academic requirements and are awarded to top students who are going to play sports at the school. The catch is that not everyone gets the scholarship. That probably explains the D3 football teams that have 125+ players on the roster. The kids who aren't getting the (Insert Mascot Name) Scholarship are probably subsidizing the kids who are getting the IMN Scholarship. 😆 Do you recall what the final cost would have been at those schools with and without schollie? The school he is at now is about $35,000/yr. His scholarship is a out $26,000/yr. I don't remember the other schools but they were more or less comparable.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 28, 2021 18:45:45 GMT -6
Do you recall what the final cost would have been at those schools with and without schollie? The school he is at now is about $35,000/yr. His scholarship is a out $26,000/yr. I don't remember the other schools but they were more or less comparable. tuition or total cost?
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Post by wolverine55 on Aug 29, 2021 7:02:05 GMT -6
I played football at a D3 school and am extremely proud I did so. Football wasn't the decision but the opportunity to play was part of it. No regrets at all...granted, I think the price tag for my freshmen year was something like $12,800 as opposed to the $50,000ish it would be today...
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 29, 2021 7:36:44 GMT -6
I played football at a D3 school and am extremely proud I did so. Football wasn't the decision but the opportunity to play was part of it. No regrets at all...granted, I think the price tag for my freshmen year was something like $12,800 as opposed to the $50,000ish it would be today... Yes, much less expensive even relative to inflation. Also, I am betting there was a difference in mindset. You wanted to play football as opposed to you wanting to be able to tell everyone else you were going to play football. That seems to be my biggest issue with what I see today. The "look at me I am the center of the universe" twitter mindset is fueling the (some) D3 and NAIA schools whose football programs also act as a revenue generator for the school. It is also apparently creating a NEW (at least to me) development. "Community Programs"...essentially groups who form a football team and take part time community college classes (mostly online) so as to not start their recruiting clock (as opposed to a JC or CC) in hopes to get more time to be recruited. My issue with these set ups is that the VAST VAST majority of kids would be so much better off in life if they just hung up the cleats and started their next phase.
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Post by freezeoption on Aug 29, 2021 9:02:54 GMT -6
Yes the revenue generated. Parents and players need to understand that going in. There no excuse not to know.
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Post by wolverine55 on Aug 29, 2021 11:46:18 GMT -6
My brother used to coach women's college basketball at the JUCO level. To his credit, one of the many reasons he doesn't anymore is that he felt slimy recruiting girls that he knew would never play in his program, he was just under orders from his administration to have a roster of at least 18 girls. I think that was the number anyway...
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 29, 2021 11:52:34 GMT -6
My brother used to coach women's college basketball at the JUCO level. To his credit, one of the many reasons he doesn't anymore is that he felt slimy recruiting girls that he knew would never play in his program, he was just under orders from his administration to have a roster of at least 18 girls. I think that was the number anyway... Yes, I have heard, second hand mind you, that some football coaches at D3 schools get extra $$ if more than a certain number of freshman enroll to play football.
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Post by teachcoach on Aug 29, 2021 15:18:55 GMT -6
Former D3 AD told me that each of his coaches had recruiting quotas. D3 expects to make money off of the programs based on the athletes paying tuition. That is why so many are adding sports as D1 cuts them. Look at lacrosse and men's volley ball as an example.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 29, 2021 15:56:32 GMT -6
The school he is at now is about $35,000/yr. His scholarship is a out $26,000/yr. I don't remember the other schools but they were more or less comparable. tuition or total cost? Total cost is about $35,000/year. Includes room and board.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 29, 2021 16:00:00 GMT -6
My brother used to coach women's college basketball at the JUCO level. To his credit, one of the many reasons he doesn't anymore is that he felt slimy recruiting girls that he knew would never play in his program, he was just under orders from his administration to have a roster of at least 18 girls. I think that was the number anyway... Yes, I have heard, second hand mind you, that some football coaches at D3 schools get extra $$ if more than a certain number of freshman enroll to play football. I would be shocked if roster size was not one of the routine things on which D3 football coaches are evaluated.
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