|
|
Post by 42falcon on Jun 13, 2021 20:02:20 GMT -6
Let me throw something else out there. What about fair vs equal when it comes to other things not related to discipline? What do you do with a kid who works his tail off and makes progress in the weight room, etc. and may not be able to beat out a kid who does just enough to keep his "spot". Do you look to try and get him some reps or PT on Friday night? How does fairness come into play in this type of situation? ie. the employee who just can't get the promotion although he/she may have earned at least a look. We got this for a few years when we were trying to "build" a culture of team and work ethic. For a a while we turned the other way, star player didn't show up to all the wt room sessions but the back up did, star player would start and back up kid found some time on specials and at the end of games. As coaches we kept saying "why can't we just get these kids to buy in?". We tried buying them more clothing, getting nicer uniforms, etc. Then the light bulb went off, we just stopped rewarding the star guys that didn't buy in..... You know what?? We were losing before we did that and magically we still lost after, but our team was far more of a team, and then a year later we started to win some games we shouldn't have / traditionally didn't win and competed when we otherwise would have not. The moment we started rewarding the kids for buying in with the ultimate reward "playing time" everyone wanted to be "in" There are far too many teams who are sacrificing the values which make this game great, that are the real reason we coach it so they have a chance to win on Friday night. Now the discipline one is interesting, I read a book from Coach K "Leading with the Heart" and I still have stuck with that message from the book. I'll paraphrase & interpret -there is no laundry list of rules and consequences for breaking them - there is right and wrong -players: do not do anything that would embarrass your teammates, coaches, family -from there be fair treat kids with love We have governed ourselves by this and over the past 6-7 years since starting to find our compass we have not had the issues we have once had. |
|
|
|
Post by somecoach on Jun 14, 2021 0:06:25 GMT -6
Let me throw something else out there. What about fair vs equal when it comes to other things not related to discipline? What do you do with a kid who works his tail off and makes progress in the weight room, etc. and may not be able to beat out a kid who does just enough to keep his "spot". Do you look to try and get him some reps or PT on Friday night? How does fairness come into play in this type of situation? ie. the employee who just can't get the promotion although he/she may have earned at least a look. Starting/getting majority of snaps= who gives us the best chance of winning the game If they can somewhat contribute or be a placeholder we can find a spot of them on specials or use them to give a starter a breather. As for the kids that can't contribute to winning the game... It depends on how much of a liability the kid is talent wise, but we will get him his "RUDY" moment by at least senior day. Overall I try my best to give those guys the best possible experience I can during the rest of the time they are with us, give them a nickname, build up their confidence, etc. |
|
|
|
Post by fkaboneyard on Jun 14, 2021 11:18:09 GMT -6
Awhile back I coached at a school where the HC pretty much let his studs do/not do whatever they wanted. Regular Jimmies were given nothing, no matter how hard they worked. We had a kid enter the school as a freshman and he was a true “Rudy” – in fact, everybody called him Rudy. A sweetheart of a kid that worked his ass off, showed up early, stayed late, put bags away, got good grades – just the model kid except that he was terrible. In spite of all that, the HC would sometimes make the kid his whipping boy. It was a pretty good program (win-loss wise, dumpster fire culture wise). Kid was a benchwarmer even as an 11th grader on JV. His senior year we had graduated a ton of kids and we literally had to forfeit the first 4 games. We only had 4 linemen so we stuck him at center and he thought he had hit the lottery. He’d DM me on Hudl all summer, “thank you, Coach, I’m not going to let you down, I’m going to be the LOTY, I’m going to handle it, etc.” Fortunately the rest of the teams we were playing were also having down years so the kid was okay. But after the 3rd game the kid would tell me, “Coach, my body is beat up, I need to take a week off” and “Coach, I don’t know how much longer I can do this.”
I have no idea what that has to do with the topic at hand but here was a kid that wasn’t treated fairly who overcame but then completely wimped out lmao |
|
|
|
Post by aceback76 on Jun 14, 2021 11:26:03 GMT -6
Seems like a fun topic. I was talking with a coaching friend recently, and this topic came up: Fair vs. Equal We were discussing how to keep players accountable, but are all situations the same? This all started from a story he read about a team meeting at Penn State. Supposedly, a scrub showed up late and got chastised, while Saquan Barkley showed up a few minutes later and was told nothing. I'm summarizing. Either way, I think it raises a good question when it comes to accountability. Do you treat players fairly or equally? Do you expect more out of some rather than others? What are those factors that go into making those decisions? Trustworthiness, ability, respect, etc.? Are the rules and consequences the same for everyone regardless of any other factors? If so/not, why? Treat them ALL fairly, but not necessarily equally. SOME need a "pat on the back". Some need a "kick in the butt". Here are two rules I believe in: 1. Treat them like you would want your own son treated. 2. Generally speaking, we are toughest on the BETTER players. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 11:27:45 GMT -6
Awhile back I coached at a school where the HC pretty much let his studs do/not do whatever they wanted. Regular Jimmies were given nothing, no matter how hard they worked. We had a kid enter the school as a freshman and he was a true “Rudy” – in fact, everybody called him Rudy. A sweetheart of a kid that worked his ass off, showed up early, stayed late, put bags away, got good grades – just the model kid except that he was terrible. In spite of all that, the HC would sometimes make the kid his whipping boy. It was a pretty good program (win-loss wise, dumpster fire culture wise). Kid was a benchwarmer even as an 11th grader on JV. His senior year we had graduated a ton of kids and we literally had to forfeit the first 4 games. We only had 4 linemen so we stuck him at center and he thought he had hit the lottery. He’d DM me on Hudl all summer, “thank you, Coach, I’m not going to let you down, I’m going to be the LOTY, I’m going to handle it, etc.” Fortunately the rest of the teams we were playing were also having down years so the kid was okay. But after the 3rd game the kid would tell me, “Coach, my body is beat up, I need to take a week off” and “Coach, I don’t know how much longer I can do this.”
I have no idea what that has to do with the topic at hand but here was a kid that wasn’t treated fairly who overcame but then completely wimped out lmao The studs have a never ending leash in both jobs i have had. And in this job, the kid you described screws in a minor way, he ain’t coming back. |
|
|
|
Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jun 15, 2021 10:55:23 GMT -6
For me: Fair doesn't mean Equal. Both in coaching and teaching. A human life is WAY too complex to categorize as such IMO. Hell, there are real-life examples...just look at our tax laws lol. I'd say the biggest factor of how long the leash is would be TRUST; plain and simple- has the kid EARNED the trust of the team to excuse them from this slip-up or not? ABILITY has nothing to do with it. We front-load the excuses like everyone else...i.e. 3 unexcused lates = suspension to give them opportunity to mess-up and learn from it. Some wise coach must have passed that on to many of us as I see that is pretty common. It works well for us- some things are out of their control and having those "freebies" help keep a kid from facing punishment. Having these built in REALLY helps IMO with feeling solid in your decision-making when dealing with habitual issues. Kinda hard for most situations for a kid to justify this being the 4th time he's been late without communicating with a coach. I am not fearful of being fired for not winning games- I have and will again likely bench/suspend a stud because he forced my hand. It's part of the accountability and growth process. Hell, I myself have been suspended from coaching a game for some (in my eyes) dumb reasons but it helps you grow. Egregious calls and my parental nature to defend my kids got the best of me that night  My job as an educator is to work with the student to help them learn, whether it means giving extra time, a do-over on a quiz, excusing missed assignments OR evaluating each and every situation that arises to try to make a fair judgement and help the kid reach/surpass the bar. There are "deal-breakers" for me: constant or consistent disruption of the learning environment is the main one...we can't have that. But I will address it and work with the student as needed to help correct that and avoid those situations. Coaching is the same. My job as a coach is to create an equal-opportunity environment where a kid can benefit from being part of a team, evaluate their skill sets, make personnel decisions, hold kids accountable to our core values, and obviously teach them the what/why/how of playing the game. There are "deal-breakers" here as well: the main one being a lack of communication. It is SO important that we stress this almost ABOVE ALL ELSE! If a kid is going to be late, and they send a message to us prior to being late, then we deal with it. NO COMMUNICATION tells me that the team is not one of your priorities and is plainly disrespectful to your teammates. Both of these scenarios would be treated differently. So each situation that arises needs to be examined quickly to determine how we can keep this from happening again. RESTORATIVE process vs PUNITIVE process. It can get pretty complex really, but a person with a good moral compass and someone rooted in a realistic view of the world (i.e. they don't think that every kid has the same thoughts/beliefs/values as themselves) can thrive in this sort of decision making. |
|
|
|
Post by aceback76 on Jun 16, 2021 9:32:05 GMT -6
I want to see (from my Assistants) a very aggressive coaching staff, hard on kids, but off the field they were very good to them.
We expected (& demanded) the following of the players:
1. HUSTLE
2. SHOW COURAGE
3. KNOW ASSIGNMENTS
4. CARE ABOUT WINNING
5. LOYALTY (if we remain strong from within nothing from the outside can divide us)
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 16, 2021 10:25:02 GMT -6
There are "deal-breakers" here as well: the main one being a lack of communication. It is SO important that we stress this almost ABOVE ALL ELSE! If a kid is going to be late, and they send a message to us prior to being late, then we deal with it. NO COMMUNICATION tells me that the team is not one of your priorities and is plainly disrespectful to your teammates. Both of these scenarios would be treated differently. I think this is such a great point in all aspects of life. I probably try to overcommunicate to the point where it is borderline handholding/aggravating. I really think you hit the nail on the head by describing lack of communication as an indication that someone is not a priority and is disrespectful. |
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 16, 2021 10:33:05 GMT -6
Starting/getting majority of snaps= who gives us the best chance of winning the game Since this is just a philosophical discussion, I just wanted to throw this out there. In the scenario presented by 42falcon about lack of buy in by the more talented players , might playing those guys because they give you the best chance of winning the upcoming game KEEP you from having a better chance at winning games in future season? Essentially trying to win a battle could cost you the war. I think there is a great deal to be said about program development. I have said here before, when I think back to my HS playing experience, I honestly never considered that the goal was not to be good enough to start for our team (which was terrible). The goal is to be good enough to beat the opponents. That is what buy in is all about. Sure, Johnny may be better than Jeff even if he doesn't show up or work hard- BUT If Johnny isn't better than his opponents does it matter? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2021 11:15:50 GMT -6
The question is what is. What is the battle and what is war if we are using that lingo.
Do you really think kids are coming if they think the field heavily tilt against them? The perception is the problem not the reality.
Do you really think you are getting buy in when kids and coaches know that rules are always up for interpretation?
What happens when the stud(s) graduate?
The kids who you tilted the field against are not all of suddenly going to become the good soldiers. That coach who didn’t have to be on time is not going to start now.
What happens to your “program” when your best player(s) is ok?
Do you want a program?Or do you want team? The war is building a program, but teams might be lost in the process, the battle.
|
|
|
|
Post by PIGSKIN11 on Jun 16, 2021 22:53:14 GMT -6
I think it was Tony Dungy that stated, "I may not treat you equally, but I will always be fair."
Has nothing to do with being a star or 8th string... has to do with "why"
I had 2 kid show up late to practice...
One had his own car, and said he was sorry but he did not leave in time and blah blah blah...
The other walked. He was watching his 3 little siblings until Mom got home from her job. She was running late...
The car kid? He had consequences... other kid who walked? His were 1/4 of it - different circumstances require different reactions...
That is real life stuff...
|
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on Jun 17, 2021 9:54:17 GMT -6
Man this is a question I've been considering a lot lately too, even in my classroom. I got on a kid (one of my football players yesterday) for jacking around and being a jackass in class. I 100 percent wouldn't do it with EVERY kid but he's better than what he has been producing. Talked about him today and he even said "coach, I get it. I'd actually have felt worse if you didn't call me out like you did because I've known you long enough now to know you just think I can do better." IDK, one of those cool moments that really got me thinking. I don't have much to contribute as I'm currently mulling this over with you, but it was a really cool moment in a year without nearly enough cool moments. That's awesome! |
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on Jun 17, 2021 9:55:24 GMT -6
Fair isn't same and same isn't fair.
Also I have to teach/coach people differently. Some need a yelling, some need a hug, some need a joke, some need stoicism, some WHY, some need how, some just need what.
Situational Awareness.
|
|
