CoachSP
Sophomore Member
Posts: 212 
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Post by CoachSP on May 12, 2021 9:12:31 GMT -6
Seems like a fun topic.
I was talking with a coaching friend recently, and this topic came up: Fair vs. Equal
We were discussing how to keep players accountable, but are all situations the same? This all started from a story he read about a team meeting at Penn State. Supposedly, a scrub showed up late and got chastised, while Saquan Barkley showed up a few minutes later and was told nothing. I'm summarizing.
Either way, I think it raises a good question when it comes to accountability. Do you treat players fairly or equally? Do you expect more out of some rather than others? What are those factors that go into making those decisions? Trustworthiness, ability, respect, etc.? Are the rules and consequences the same for everyone regardless of any other factors?
If so/not, why?
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Post by rsmith627 on May 12, 2021 9:47:10 GMT -6
Man this is a question I've been considering a lot lately too, even in my classroom.
I got on a kid (one of my football players yesterday) for jacking around and being a jackass in class. I 100 percent wouldn't do it with EVERY kid but he's better than what he has been producing. Talked about him today and he even said "coach, I get it. I'd actually have felt worse if you didn't call me out like you did because I've known you long enough now to know you just think I can do better."
IDK, one of those cool moments that really got me thinking.
I don't have much to contribute as I'm currently mulling this over with you, but it was a really cool moment in a year without nearly enough cool moments.
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Post by mkuempel on May 12, 2021 9:53:51 GMT -6
In my opinion, treating players equally can't happen, because every situation is different, so the outcome should be different, but treating players fairly is very important. Maybe in the situation you mentioned, one player communicated with coaches and the other didn't, or any number of possibilities. I run into things like that often and if players communicate things usually go pretty well, if they don't it's a problem. Coaches have to be honest during the communication, but at least everyone knows the situation before it occurs so everyone can make an informed decision prior to it.
With so much going on outside of our control these days a blanket statement for these situations could become problematic, but on the flip side, communication is as easy and simple as it has ever been, so that should be helpful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2021 10:09:42 GMT -6
If you ain’t willing to do it to your best players, don’t do it. Amazing how many times rules have an exception-w or talent.
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Post by realdawg on May 12, 2021 10:23:17 GMT -6
If a player misses practice-unexcused-no reason-you probably bench him and run him. If a player misses practice bc of a death in the family-you probably dont, and if you do bench him you certainly dont run him, the only reason you bench him would be if he couldnt learn the gameplan bc of missing. Thats the difference in equal and fair in my opinion.
Its a tough line for coaches. And even tougher is that players and parents arent likely to see the difference or know the situation the way you do. So then they or their parents feel slighted.
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Post by blb on May 12, 2021 10:35:45 GMT -6
In HS you should be trying to teach kids commitment, self-discipline, responsibility-accountability, how to be a good teammate-team player as well as how to block and tackle.
If you explain your expectations and WHY up front (including to parents) and then stick to them you will have fewer problems.
If you have a "star" system you're asking for trouble.
Based on 31 years experience as head HS coach - virtually every time I tried to give a kid a "break" and made an exception, it came back to bite me in the azz.
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Post by fkaboneyard on May 12, 2021 10:44:04 GMT -6
Parcells once said something to the effect of, "If Aikman falls asleep during film I'll say, 'Troy, check in.' If a rookie falls asleep I'll scream at him to GTFO."
Maybe unpopular opinion but kids should get treated fairly, not equitably. That's not the way the world works. In fact, if we're trying to teach them how the world works then treating them fairly is probably a misrepresentation.
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Post by blb on May 12, 2021 11:02:01 GMT -6
Parcells once said something to the effect of, "If Aikman falls asleep during film I'll say, 'Troy, check in.' If a rookie falls asleep I'll scream at him to GTFO." Maybe unpopular opinion but kids should get treated fairly, not equitably. That's not the way the world works. In fact, if we're trying to teach them how the world works then treating them fairly is probably a misrepresentation. That was Jimmy Johnson with the Cowboys. But those guys are adult professionals who are getting paid millions. Pro Football is a different game (business) than CFB, much less HS football. |
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Post by coachcb on May 12, 2021 12:31:32 GMT -6
What we ask of the players isn't demanding; show up on time, practice with effort, be coachable and be respectful of your teammates and the staff. Everyone suffers the same consequences for not abiding by those policies; that's equal and fair.
Yes, each situation -can be different but that just means we have to make proper judgment calls when those situations arise. That means the call is based on the specifics of the situation, not the player, their ability or their status on the team. And, these situations typically involve a kid missing practice which tends to be cut and dry.
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Post by blb on May 12, 2021 12:48:33 GMT -6
I told kids up front, that if they missed practice more than twice unexcused or were habitually late (three times), what I heard them saying was
"I don't want to play football for our HS."
So I accomodated them by dropping them from the program and collecting their equipment.
Didn't happen very often because kids knew the expectations up front-before practice started.
"This is not Burger King - you don't get it 'Your Way' here"!
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Post by larrymoe on May 12, 2021 12:52:32 GMT -6
Look, I live in a state where they just passed a law that if someone breaks into your home and you call the cops, all the cops can do is ask them to leave unless they're posing an immediate threat to my well being.
Your out of your mind if you think we're long for making kids run for being 5 minutes late.
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Post by cwaltsmith on May 12, 2021 12:56:03 GMT -6
I used to say I am going to treat every kid like they are mine. I have changed on that... I can't do that bc some of those kids haven't had the structure that my kid has had. So Kids have to be treated differently. On that note, the law treats folks differently. If this guy has 20 prior arrests he is sentenced differently than a 1st time offender. In the situation that was presented I try to be harder on the Saquons than I do the scrubs. And I will make sure I have a convo and tell Saquon why I hold him to a higher standard. More status and privilege brings more responsibilities.
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Post by blb on May 12, 2021 12:57:28 GMT -6
Look, I live in a state where they just passed a law that if someone breaks into your home and you call the cops, all the cops can do is ask them to leave unless they're posing an immediate threat to my well being. Your out of your mind if you think we're long for making kids run for being 5 minutes late. Then you find another line of work, as apparently you have. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2021 13:04:04 GMT -6
Look, I live in a state where they just passed a law that if someone breaks into your home and you call the cops, all the cops can do is ask them to leave unless they're posing an immediate threat to my well being. Your out of your mind if you think we're long for making kids run for being 5 minutes late. yikes! |
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Post by larrymoe on May 12, 2021 13:51:07 GMT -6
Look, I live in a state where they just passed a law that if someone breaks into your home and you call the cops, all the cops can do is ask them to leave unless they're posing an immediate threat to my well being. Your out of your mind if you think we're long for making kids run for being 5 minutes late. Then you find another line of work, as apparently you have. Indeed. When I had a parent accuse me of bullying and then had to talk with the AD and principal because I made that parent's kids run for missing practice (for a Dr appointment, in town, at 1pm, and we didn't practice until 330) I knew it was getting to be time to get out. The older of the 2 kids later called in a bomb threat to the school in February and got expelled. He was a Sr and mom threatened to sue if they didn't graduate him. Not only did they give him a diploma, the kid walked in graduation and had his picture scrolling on the marquee with the other Srs. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2021 14:42:43 GMT -6
Then you find another line of work, as apparently you have. Indeed. When I had a parent accuse me of bullying and then had to talk with the AD and principal because I made that parent's kids run for missing practice (for a Dr appointment, in town, at 1pm, and we didn't practice until 330) I knew it was getting to be time to get out. The older of the 2 kids later called in a bomb threat to the school in February and got expelled. He was a Sr and mom threatened to sue if they didn't graduate him. Not only did they give him a diploma, the kid walked in graduation and had his picture scrolling on the marquee with the other Srs. Gross!!! |
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Post by coachcb on May 12, 2021 14:47:32 GMT -6
I will say this; the kids know they won't be treated "fairly" or "equitably" if they lie to me. There will be hell to pay (i.e. they might want to consider quitting) if they lie to me about missing practice, being late, etc..
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Post by cqmiller on May 12, 2021 14:51:24 GMT -6
If you ain’t willing to do it to your best players, don’t do it. Amazing how many times rules have an exception-w or talent. I absolutely agree that this is the absolute WRONG way to do it... The standards should be HIGHER for the kids with talent, NOT LOWER! My standards for my son (7yo) and our 3 other talented players (7-8yo) are different than my standards for the 7 other kids (8-9yo) on our Rec-Baseball team I'm coaching... is it equal? NO is it fair? YES My kid is in 1st grade and one of the kids on our team goes to his same school and is in the 3rd grade... he can't pitch the ball where it isn't behind the batter 50% of the time... treating them both the same does a disservice to both of them. Each is at a different place in development, and physical/emotional maturity. If my kid is going to grow, I have to EXPECT he doesn't make errors throwing from shortstop to 1st base. He has the ability to do so. If the other kid just gets it to where the 1st baseman isn't chasing the ball to the fence, it's a victory... I get too many kids by the time they reach my HS football team as a freshman who have had the ability to be late to class/practice, miss, not hustle, not do all the little things and get away with it because they were the fastest kid on their youth-team, it's crazy. "I was the best player on my little-league team" is almost my least favorite phrase of all-time. Kids with the ability to be better need to be held to a higher standard... as soon as admin tries to force it to not be that way will be the day I'm done. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2021 20:05:16 GMT -6
If you ain’t willing to do it to your best players, don’t do it. Amazing how many times rules have an exception-w or talent. I absolutely agree that this is the absolute WRONG way to do it... The standards should be HIGHER for the kids with talent, NOT LOWER! My standards for my son (7yo) and our 3 other talented players (7-8yo) are different than my standards for the 7 other kids (8-9yo) on our Rec-Baseball team I'm coaching... is it equal? NO is it fair? YES My kid is in 1st grade and one of the kids on our team goes to his same school and is in the 3rd grade... he can't pitch the ball where it isn't behind the batter 50% of the time... treating them both the same does a disservice to both of them. Each is at a different place in development, and physical/emotional maturity. If my kid is going to grow, I have to EXPECT he doesn't make errors throwing from shortstop to 1st base. He has the ability to do so. If the other kid just gets it to where the 1st baseman isn't chasing the ball to the fence, it's a victory... I get too many kids by the time they reach my HS football team as a freshman who have had the ability to be late to class/practice, miss, not hustle, not do all the little things and get away with it because they were the fastest kid on their youth-team, it's crazy. "I was the best player on my little-league team" is almost my least favorite phrase of all-time. Kids with the ability to be better need to be held to a higher standard... as soon as admin tries to force it to not be that way will be the day I'm done. To me, it is about getting as many people rowing in the same direction as possible. What rule will apply to everybody in the organization? In that locker room, in that meeting room? The very first exception to rules in place has just fractured the team right down the middle. And you do with the best player on the team...it gets ugly quick. |
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Post by realdawg on May 13, 2021 3:25:17 GMT -6
Also a reason why you need simple, very broad rules like 1)Do Right-be where you are supposed to be, doing what you are supposed to be doing, when you are supposed to be doing it. 2) Never do anything to embarrass yourself, your family, your team, your school or your community. That gives you plenty of lee-way in handling each situation fairly.
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CoachSP
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Post by CoachSP on May 13, 2021 7:00:28 GMT -6
I used to say I am going to treat every kid like they are mine. I have changed on that... I can't do that bc some of those kids haven't had the structure that my kid has had. So Kids have to be treated differently. On that note, the law treats folks differently. If this guy has 20 prior arrests he is sentenced differently than a 1st time offender. In the situation that was presented I try to be harder on the Saquons than I do the scrubs. And I will make sure I have a convo and tell Saquon why I hold him to a higher standard. More status and privilege brings more responsibilities. Great point. I would consider your method to be the "fair" method when it comes to high schoolers. If you're the best players then you have it harder than the scrubs. Same thing in the real world, the hardest workers usually work hard because they want more responsibility and the spoils that come with it (pay, job title, etc). |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2021 7:19:25 GMT -6
I used to say I am going to treat every kid like they are mine. I have changed on that... I can't do that bc some of those kids haven't had the structure that my kid has had. So Kids have to be treated differently. On that note, the law treats folks differently. If this guy has 20 prior arrests he is sentenced differently than a 1st time offender. In the situation that was presented I try to be harder on the Saquons than I do the scrubs. And I will make sure I have a convo and tell Saquon why I hold him to a higher standard. More status and privilege brings more responsibilities. Great point. I would consider your method to be the "fair" method when it comes to high schoolers. If you're the best players then you have it harder than the scrubs. Same thing in the real world, the hardest workers usually work hard because they want more responsibility and the spoils that come with it (pay, job title, etc). Is it for benefits or it’s just the right thing to do? |
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CoachSP
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Post by CoachSP on May 13, 2021 7:21:41 GMT -6
Let me throw something else out there. What about fair vs equal when it comes to other things not related to discipline?
What do you do with a kid who works his tail off and makes progress in the weight room, etc. and may not be able to beat out a kid who does just enough to keep his "spot". Do you look to try and get him some reps or PT on Friday night? How does fairness come into play in this type of situation? ie. the employee who just can't get the promotion although he/she may have earned at least a look.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2021 7:34:17 GMT -6
Let me throw something else out there. What about fair vs equal when it comes to other things not related to discipline? What do you do with a kid who works his tail off and makes progress in the weight room, etc. and may not be able to beat out a kid who does just enough to keep his "spot". Do you look to try and get him some reps or PT on Friday night? How does fairness come into play in this type of situation? ie. the employee who just can't get the promotion although he/she may have earned at least a look. You are talking about buy in ime. Ime that kid really is no different than the kids who follows the rules, on time, every time, coachable. You have, active reward that guy. You want send the message that doing it the PROGRAM WAY” pays. |
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Post by bluboy on May 13, 2021 9:03:29 GMT -6
"1)Do Right-be where you are supposed to be, doing what you are supposed to be doing, when you are supposed to be doing it. 2) Never do anything to embarrass yourself, your family, your team, your school or your community. "
These are the two ideas we talk about all the time. The third thing we stress is communication, especially when you're not where you're supposed to be or not on time...
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Post by fantom on May 13, 2021 9:47:33 GMT -6
Let me throw something else out there. What about fair vs equal when it comes to other things not related to discipline? What do you do with a kid who works his tail off and makes progress in the weight room, etc. and may not be able to beat out a kid who does just enough to keep his "spot". Do you look to try and get him some reps or PT on Friday night? How does fairness come into play in this type of situation? ie. the employee who just can't get the promotion although he/she may have earned at least a look. The fair thing to the rest of the players on the team is that the best player plays. The players want to win and the best player gives them the best chance to do that. We'll try to find a way to get the hard work/no talent kid playing time as a backup/spot player or on STs but if he's a real liability there's not much that can be done. |
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Post by coachcb on May 13, 2021 12:38:45 GMT -6
Let me throw something else out there. What about fair vs equal when it comes to other things not related to discipline? What do you do with a kid who works his tail off and makes progress in the weight room, etc. and may not be able to beat out a kid who does just enough to keep his "spot". Do you look to try and get him some reps or PT on Friday night? How does fairness come into play in this type of situation? ie. the employee who just can't get the promotion although he/she may have earned at least a look. The fair thing to the rest of the players on the team is that the best player plays. The players want to win and the best player gives them the best chance to do that. We'll try to find a way to get the hard work/no talent kid playing time as a backup/spot player or on STs but if he's a real liability there's not much that can be done.
If it's close (i.e. the hard worker can get the job done but the lazier kid will do it better) then the minimum-effort player is going to have to compete more than normal. They'll get equal reps until something shakes out. The majority of the time, the talented kid wins out and we try to find a place for the harder worker. But, there are times where the talented kid can't handle the competition and loses the spot.
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Post by newhope on May 24, 2021 12:05:41 GMT -6
Not even sure why this is a question---treat them fairly.
Anyone who can't treat them fairly doesn't need to be in the profession.
Sometimes, treating them fairly is the same as treating them equally. Sometimes, it's not.
There are certain things you can't do, regardless of who you are or what the situation is.
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Post by blackknight on Jun 8, 2021 20:24:39 GMT -6
I explained it as having a bank account. If my daughter is an honor student, has never had a major issue at home comes home half an hour late she gets a "let's not have this happen again" talk. If my son is a slap who is consistantly challenging authority comes home half an hour late he gets the "we will decide tomorrow what the consequences are" talk. She has more in her bank account than he does.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 20:56:52 GMT -6
I explained it as having a bank account. If my daughter is an honor student, has never had a major issue at home comes home half an hour late she gets a "let's not have this happen again" talk. If my son is a slap who is consistantly challenging authority comes home half an hour late he gets the "we will decide tomorrow what the consequences are" talk. She has more in her bank account than he does. Not how it worked when i was a kid. I got my ass whipped everytime, my sister had a never ending bank account…LOL ( I deserved every bit of it) |
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