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Post by coachdubyah on Mar 29, 2021 8:01:10 GMT -6
Ok Im not writing this to start a fire storm. But does anyone else feel like this hinders you when Installing. I know Air Raiders (Im kinda one) take the 3 Day Install approach, but I had a discussion with a coach that simply believes in the Install to Mastery approach.
3 Day Install Plan below
Day 1:
Run - base run Quick pass - whatever droback - whatever screen - whatever
Day 2:
Same as above but different plays.
Day 3:
*So on and So Forth
I talk to defense guys as well and MANY of them feel this way. One guy told me that the 3 Day Install guys will move on to the next thing and after it cycles around it's like the kids don't know anymore than they did when they started and it's like Groundhog Day with MOST HS kids with football practice. Accept they really don't remember anything. ("50 First Dates" movie...chick flick but it's a funny movie)
IDK, just would like to hear if anyone (Offense OR Defense) has abandoned the whole "Install Schedule" thing. Lets go out Day 1 and spend a few days to get good at something.
For what it's worth, I sat through an online deal on teaching and the workshop speaker talked about this in the classroom and how it hurts Elementary Age kids by moving too fast because "they told you to".
Again, not here to bash but it's just my Monday Morning Thoughts.
And GO!!!!!!!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2021 8:11:39 GMT -6
Ok Im not writing this to start a fire storm. But does anyone else feel like this hinders you when Installing. I know Air Raiders (Im kinda one) take the 3 Day Install approach, but I had a discussion with a coach that simply believes in the Install to Mastery approach.
3 Day Install Plan below
Day 1:
Run - base run Quick pass - whatever droback - whatever screen - whatever
Day 2:
Same as above but different plays.
Day 3:
*So on and So Forth
I talk to defense guys as well and MANY of them feel this way. One guy told me that the 3 Day Install guys will move on to the next thing and after it cycles around it's like the kids don't know anymore than they did when they started and it's like Groundhog Day with MOST HS kids with football practice. Accept they really don't remember anything. ("50 First Dates" movie...chick flick but it's a funny movie)
IDK, just would like to hear if anyone (Offense OR Defense) has abandoned the whole "Install Schedule" thing. Lets go out Day 1 and spend a few days to get good at something.
For what it's worth, I sat through an online deal on teaching and the workshop speaker talked about this in the classroom and how it hurts Elementary Age kids by moving too fast because "they told you to".
Again, not here to bash but it's just my Monday Morning Thoughts.
And GO!!!!!!!
If day 1 and day 2 have no carry over? Your screwed...your offense and defense should have natural carry over. |
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Post by cwaltsmith on Mar 29, 2021 8:58:27 GMT -6
I dont like 3 days to install... To me 5 is minimum. I like to install 2 paired runs per day (ex = buck, trap or jet, belly etc...) then 2 pass concepts and 1 screen. The next dayI like to have a review period, maybe 5 minutes to talk thru yesterdays stuff and maybe get or 1 or 2 reps of it. Then go into next set of plays. Then on day 3 have a 10 min review period and review both days quickly. On 4th day I dont review day 1 but may run it in team.
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Post by Defcord on Mar 29, 2021 9:03:54 GMT -6
We can get our base defense in in 3 days. From there we are adding stuff based on how well they can line up and execute base assignments. Some years we get pretty complex by the end. Some years we don't move much further than the base.
I am kind of on both sides of the debate. I think you have to get the base stuff too them out of the gate as fast as you can, but I don't think you should move on from that until they can handle it. I usually can tell if they are ready to move on when they are making all their calls and I can clearly hear them from the sideline. If they aren't talking, then my assumption is that they haven't mastered it yet.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 29, 2021 9:14:59 GMT -6
Defensively, the kids' fundamentals dictate the installation pace. We want to have an Over front, Under front, goal line, C3, C1, 3 Under/3 Deep, (maybe) Robber and a handful of stunts installed by the first game. If the kids know/pick up the basic fundamentals then we'll get those installed. If not, we have no issues walking in with an Over front, goal line front/coverage, C1 and C3 and no stunts. Heck, we played the first four games of a season with those bare bones installed because it took us that long to learn to take proper angles, shed, and tackle...
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Post by mariner42 on Mar 29, 2021 9:23:51 GMT -6
Offensively, we throw everything at them in spring and then refine, refine, refine all summer and fall camp. For our freshmen, it's an ugly sight until it's not. For the JVs, we usually rotate through a 4 day schedule that's something like this: Monday - Buck Series, Tuesday - Belly Series, Wednesday - Perimeter Plays & Counters, Thurs - Sprint Out, 3 Step, Shots, Specials. Varsity is a continual recursive install that's mastery based.
Defensively we have such a minimal defense that there isn't even really an install, we just start playing defense and then add some blitzes. Eventually Cover 2 shows up.
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Post by agap on Mar 30, 2021 11:48:50 GMT -6
Defensively, we have a two-week install schedule to start the year. Sometimes we stop a couple days in and sometimes we follow it until the second week. It depends on the team. We won't continue following it regardless of how well we're executing what's already installed. If we're struggling, we slow down or even stop. At the same time, we might need something installed for the first game or two so we'll make sure they're in early enough even if we're struggling.
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Post by coachdubyah on Mar 30, 2021 19:12:46 GMT -6
Defensively, we have a two-week install schedule to start the year. Sometimes we stop a couple days in and sometimes we follow it until the second week. It depends on the team. We won't continue following it regardless of how well we're executing what's already installed. If we're struggling, we slow down or even stop. At the same time, we might need something installed for the first game or two so we'll make sure they're in early enough even if we're struggling. The last 3 years I have developed this philosophy. “It just depends”....It really is the most accurate statement you can make for coaching HS Football. Good Posts by all of you. |
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Split4
Freshmen Member
Posts: 82
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Post by Split4 on Mar 30, 2021 20:43:10 GMT -6
I like an “A” day and a “B” day. It runs a two week cycle. So A may be zone, stick (quick), smash (drop back), slow screen. B day might be power, snag. Verts, jailbreaks. A is Monday/Wednesday B Tuesday Thursday. Friday scrimmage. Repeat cycle the next week
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Post by IronmanFootball on Mar 31, 2021 6:49:53 GMT -6
I use a 3 day approach but every time we come back to day 1 (3 rotations) I add some wrinkles. I may bump something up to Day 1, and something else into Day 2, then a new play into Day 3. Add an RPO tag here or there.
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SconnieOC
Junior Member
Just here to learn the facemelter
Posts: 414
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Post by SconnieOC on Mar 31, 2021 7:53:25 GMT -6
I'm much more of a stretch it out and build on the early stuff kind of guy. We have a 9 day install, but there's not a ton in each of those.. Day 1 might be our 2 sniffer formations, power, and choice, day 2 may just be power read and snag out of those same formations, etc. I always felt this allows us to build the wrinkles and on day 3 when we had 2 new formations, still go back and run Power and choice pretty easily out of the new ones.
If we feel like we need a day to stop and review, we do it. If day 5 comes and we want make sure we understand our base 5 things out of the 7 formations we have in, we'll do a review day. I think as soon as you handcuff yourself to a schedule, you're putting your kids in a bad spot at some point. Flexibility is the name of the game with install.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2021 8:00:17 GMT -6
Offensively, we throw everything at them in spring and then refine, refine, refine all summer and fall camp. For our freshmen, it's an ugly sight until it's not. For the JVs, we usually rotate through a 4 day schedule that's something like this: Monday - Buck Series, Tuesday - Belly Series, Wednesday - Perimeter Plays & Counters, Thurs - Sprint Out, 3 Step, Shots, Specials. Varsity is a continual recursive install that's mastery based. Defensively we have such a minimal defense that there isn't even really an install, we just start playing defense and then add some blitzes. Eventually Cover 2 shows up. of all the ones I have seen this piques my interest the most. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2021 8:03:05 GMT -6
I'm much more of a stretch it out and build on the early stuff kind of guy. We have a 9 day install, but there's not a ton in each of those.. Day 1 might be our 2 sniffer formations, power, and choice, day 2 may just be power read and snag out of those same formations, etc. I always felt this allows us to build the wrinkles and on day 3 when we had 2 new formations, still go back and run Power and choice pretty easily out of the new ones. If we feel like we need a day to stop and review, we do it. If day 5 comes and we want make sure we understand our base 5 things out of the 7 formations we have in, we'll do a review day. I think as soon as you handcuff yourself to a schedule, you're putting your kids in a bad spot at some point. Flexibility is the name of the game with install. what is your basis for install? Is it what kids latch onto? Or is it we are going to install and make it go? It might be something else? |
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Post by mnike23 on Mar 31, 2021 9:49:36 GMT -6
have done it several ways.
1 year we did 10 days of install(was really just regular practice to the kids, but putting everything in, in those 10 days)
run, quick passgame, drop back/rollout pass, screen, every day.
when we were out of runs(we were simplistic run game wise) we used those days for rpo/ bubble/smoke screens
everyday, prepractice was review from day before. so day 2, was power and power and power, day 3 was power and counter, power and counter, day 4 was jet, power and counter. etc.
pass game was same way, slant, slant, slant, slant hitch, slant hitch, slant hitch fade, etc.
1 year we did it by complimentary plays.
power and counter were together, so we put them in at same time. then added jet to it too. then added q power, q counter, then 2 backs, then i formation, etc.
pass game was same, slant hitch fade all went in together as it was quick game.
then all the rollout passes,
then the cov 2 beaters, man, cov 4, etc.
lots of ways to skin a cat, each program kid is different, we all learn different. on the board, in person, draw it up, on hudl, etc. whatever works best for your kids, do that.
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SconnieOC
Junior Member
Just here to learn the facemelter
Posts: 414
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Post by SconnieOC on Apr 1, 2021 10:48:51 GMT -6
I'm much more of a stretch it out and build on the early stuff kind of guy. We have a 9 day install, but there's not a ton in each of those.. Day 1 might be our 2 sniffer formations, power, and choice, day 2 may just be power read and snag out of those same formations, etc. I always felt this allows us to build the wrinkles and on day 3 when we had 2 new formations, still go back and run Power and choice pretty easily out of the new ones. If we feel like we need a day to stop and review, we do it. If day 5 comes and we want make sure we understand our base 5 things out of the 7 formations we have in, we'll do a review day. I think as soon as you handcuff yourself to a schedule, you're putting your kids in a bad spot at some point. Flexibility is the name of the game with install. what is your basis for install? Is it what kids latch onto? Or is it we are going to install and make it go? It might be something else? We're going to have our base stuff.. we're always going to make Power go.. but some years we might put more focus on power read as opposed to 11/12/21 personnel power depending on our guys. The package will shift a bit year to year, so it's not always the same schedule, but power and choice are always day 1.. from there its a "what do we think we can be good at with our best guys" this year. I think the right answer to your question is a bit different year to year as well... Like if we have a bunch of upperclassmen and can get into the tags and wrinkles sooner we will.. if we're young and need to hammer our base, that's what we'll do. |
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Post by somecoach on Apr 1, 2021 12:27:05 GMT -6
Good Posts by all of you. This was literally the Day 1 lesson in Law School. The answer to ALL legal questions is "it depends" ... because everyone's situation is different and thus can become an exception to a "rule"... also to avoid malpractice lol. |
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Post by somecoach on Apr 1, 2021 13:29:01 GMT -6
it's like the kids don't know anymore than they did when they started and it's like Groundhog Day with MOST HS kids with football practice. Accept they really don't remember anything. ("50 First Dates" movie...chick flick but it's a funny movie)
For what it's worth, I sat through an online deal on teaching and the workshop speaker talked about this in the classroom and how it hurts Elementary Age kids by moving too fast because "they told you to".
Yeah it really isn't my cup of tea, especially when coaching low football IQ players. Not knocking guys who can get it to work for them, imo it sounds really cool on paper, its just not for me. I have learned (the hard way) that unlike chess/checkers/drawing on a white board, football isn't just about having enough tools in the tool box (# of plays) its about how many tools in the tool box are sharp enough to actually be used. (execution) 3 day install gets all your base plays onto the playcall sheet quickly, but imo you are sacrificing execution. Which drives another point that it assumes that you are going to use all of those schemes equally in the game. Which from my experience isn't the case: hypothetically say its a 12 padded practice camp (2 weeks) you can either: a. in a 3 day deal, you only get 4 days to rep your "hang your hat" run play, which is the same time allocated to the draw play that only gets called 2x a game. b. in the traditional "run it till we get it right" deal, it will be worked on as long as you subjectively need it to. Also I am very intrigued by that elementary school study, I am assuming it subliminally taught the kids that it is acceptable to have a half ass result because "we have to move on to the next thing" because I can see how that can snowball effect ... also 50 first dates is an Adam Sandler classic lol |
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Post by Coach Huey on Apr 4, 2021 16:51:28 GMT -6
Semantics but eventually all of us need to be on a 3 day install. As in, 3 days to install the full game plan each week. So, take your 2-a-days/Fall Camp schedule and make sure it is mastered enough to speed things up so that you can practice your weekly game plan in 3 days. If you can't practice the entire game plan in 3 days reevaluate the game plan process (and what you carry) and/or reevaluate the way your practice.
I know, this is a different conversation but just adding that a 3 day install is something we will all be on at some point, just not directly as the OP was discussing
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Post by coachks on Apr 6, 2021 9:43:55 GMT -6
Day 1 - Base
Day 2 - Base + Common Blitzes + Goalline
Day 3 - Base + Pass Rush / Nickel
Eventually, Day 1 (Base) starts to include the most common blitzes. Day 2 becomes the variants of those blitzes. So from our 3-4 package, Day 1 is Base / Quarters. Day 2 is 1 man blitzes from quarters. Day 3 is the 2-4-5 package. After about a week, Day 1 includes the 1 man blitzes and Day 2 becomes the 5 man NCAA stuff. After about a week, Day 1 includes the NCAA stuff and Day becomes some specific gameplan stuff. By that point we are in-season.
In Season
Day 1 - Monday
Day 2 - Tuesday
Day 3 - Wednesday
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Post by airraidallday on Apr 12, 2021 9:58:04 GMT -6
I have always done a 6-Day install, which is just a 3-Day install repeated twice.
Day 1- Base Run 1, Base Pass 1
Day 2- Base Run 2, Base Pass 2
Day 3- Base Run 3, Base Pass 3
is the general structure. By the end of these 3 days I want to have spent 40 ish minutes of individual and group time each day with these 6 plays. As a staff we select which plays are in this rotation based on what we feel will be the backbone of our offense, effectively what we will hang our hat on. Sometimes pass periods will be split between two plays like stick/snag or other complimentary concepts. Things like Mesh, four verts, and shallow cross will be the only play for their days as they require more time to teach and rep to get working correctly. So yes, in years where we are a mesh team we won't carry shallow cross and vice versa.
Days 4 through 6 are just these days repeated again with the same amount of time spent on each. This allows us to circle back and "quiz" the kids on what they should know already, fix any issues, and add any wrinkles that we will call often IF they show they have picked everything up that they needed too.
Day 7 is a inner-squad where the OC will call any and all plays/formations that we should have installed. We will then break this film and figure out what we need to target moving forward with indy periods and group periods.
I will happily only carry 6 plays into the first few weeks of a season if it is all we can execute. Anything we add during the year will be built off of our base plays as we will have a lot of the basics already down which cuts down on teaching investment.
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