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Post by CanyonCoach on Nov 19, 2020 12:19:19 GMT -6
Our conference/state has a rule that says that athletes must be all-conference to be considered for all-state. Honorable mention does not cut it.
That being said: We had a kid who was 4th in the conference when voting was to be completed.
We had a rescheduled game to be played and then we earned a couple of play-off games.
After the last game and 2 amazing games in the play-offs the kid moves to the statistical leader in the conference. This is the first year that they have included the play-off games in the published conference stats and it looks like the player got shafted based on stats.
So the question is: should I question the all-state rules based on 3 outstanding games that propelled the kid to the states runner-up statistically at his position?
(one of the kids above him got hurt and played 3 less games, 1 of them didn't make the play-offs so he played 2 less games and 3rd one had a minor injury that limited reps but he still played in the same number of games)
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Post by coachcb on Nov 19, 2020 13:11:43 GMT -6
IMO, no, I wouldn't try to question the all-state rules. I'd push all-conference hard (given those games) and then see how the chips fall with respect to all-state. But, my experience with those meetings has varied.
Some groups of coaches would be receptive to the kid's stats and the worst he'd get is all-conference. In other meetings, they wouldn't care about those stats and my pushing for all-conference could cost us other kids some spots. The squeaky wheel gets removed, not greased.
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Post by wingtol on Nov 19, 2020 18:32:27 GMT -6
Who votes and or picks these teams?
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Post by wolverine55 on Nov 19, 2020 19:45:10 GMT -6
Is your program a name program? In Iowa, that would matter more than the stats anyway...
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 20, 2020 7:07:17 GMT -6
I wouldn't. There's a lot of factors besides stats that go into those decisions. Class/Division, competition level, team record, etc.
Also, if the league has always chosen all conference before the season ends, then your player's situation is probably somewhat common. I'm sure there's been late season bloomers before that got shafted.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 20, 2020 8:55:38 GMT -6
I wouldn't. There's a lot of factors besides stats that go into those decisions. Class/Division, competition level, team record, etc. Also, if the league has always chosen all conference before the season ends, then your player's situation is probably somewhat common. I'm sure there's been late season bloomers before that got shafted.
Here's our conundrum; any kid that is all-conference both ways is considered all state. And, we get a limited number of all-state slots per conference. So, we sit down, figure out as many of those all-state spots as possible before we delve into the all-conference picks. That makes things easier in some ways but more difficult in others.
For example, we had a junior OLB that I pushed hard for an all-conference spot; it was acknowledged that he was one of the best LBs in the conference. We had a senior ILB/OG that had been all-state the year before but this year he was only an easy nod for all-conference guard. But, the only way I could get him in as an all-conference LB was to drop the junior at OLB as there were only two all-state positions open and one was going to be an all-conference LB (limited all-conference spots).
So, a) I would have had to drop the junior (who was a better defender than the senior) and b) I would have had to make a case for why the senior ILB was better than a few other LBs in the conference because of the two-way all-conference rules. I opted not to push it as a) the junior deserved the all-conference nod and b) it made more sense to have two kids all-conference versus one-all state.
Needless to say, many people disagreed with me in that decision.
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 20, 2020 9:19:36 GMT -6
I wouldn't. There's a lot of factors besides stats that go into those decisions. Class/Division, competition level, team record, etc. Also, if the league has always chosen all conference before the season ends, then your player's situation is probably somewhat common. I'm sure there's been late season bloomers before that got shafted.
Here's our conundrum; any kid that is all-conference both ways is considered all state. And, we get a limited number of all-state slots per conference. So, we sit down, figure out as many of those all-state spots as possible before we delve into the all-conference picks. That makes things easier in some ways but more difficult in others.
For example, we had a junior OLB that I pushed hard for an all-conference spot; it was acknowledged that he was one of the best LBs in the conference. We had a senior ILB/OG that had been all-state the year before but this year he was only an easy nod for all-conference guard. But, the only way I could get him in as an all-conference LB was to drop the junior at OLB as there were only two all-state positions open and one was going to be an all-conference LB (limited all-conference spots).
So, a) I would have had to drop the junior (who was a better defender than the senior) and b) I would have had to make a case for why the senior ILB was better than a few other LBs in the conference because of the two-way all-conference rules. I opted not to push it as a) the junior deserved the all-conference nod and b) it made more sense to have two kids all-conference versus one-all state.
Needless to say, many people disagreed with me in that decision.
Yea that seems like a mess and not the best system for choosing all state. How about this for how Rhode Island chooses....the coaches vote for all conference (we call ours divisions here), but that's it. Our states biggest news paper, The Providence Journal, independently chooses the All State teams. More specifically the sports writers that cover high school football. |
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Post by coachcb on Nov 20, 2020 9:49:51 GMT -6
Here's our conundrum; any kid that is all-conference both ways is considered all state. And, we get a limited number of all-state slots per conference. So, we sit down, figure out as many of those all-state spots as possible before we delve into the all-conference picks. That makes things easier in some ways but more difficult in others.
For example, we had a junior OLB that I pushed hard for an all-conference spot; it was acknowledged that he was one of the best LBs in the conference. We had a senior ILB/OG that had been all-state the year before but this year he was only an easy nod for all-conference guard. But, the only way I could get him in as an all-conference LB was to drop the junior at OLB as there were only two all-state positions open and one was going to be an all-conference LB (limited all-conference spots).
So, a) I would have had to drop the junior (who was a better defender than the senior) and b) I would have had to make a case for why the senior ILB was better than a few other LBs in the conference because of the two-way all-conference rules. I opted not to push it as a) the junior deserved the all-conference nod and b) it made more sense to have two kids all-conference versus one-all state.
Needless to say, many people disagreed with me in that decision.
Yea that seems like a mess and not the best system for choosing all state. How about this for how Rhode Island chooses....the coaches vote for all conference (we call ours divisions here), but that's it. Our states biggest news paper, The Providence Journal, independently chooses the All State teams. More specifically the sports writers that cover high school football. It really depends on the conference you're in and the personalities of the coaches.
In one division, we listed all of the contenders for 1st team All-Conference and voted with simple criteria: "Regardless of scheme, who would you want starting for your varsity?" Coaches could make pitches for various players but ultimately, majority ruled. We then did the same thing for 2nd team all-conference with the caveat: "Who would be the backups for the 1st team." Honorable mention was handled as "who would be third string?".
We agreed that all-state would just fall in place after that; it didn't matter if he was all-state the previous year. This set some coaches off but it was understood that the previous year's status shouldn't affect that year's.
In the situation I described previously, our senior ILB/OG wouldn't have even been considered as an all-conference ILB; there were just kids that played better than he did (including our junior). And, he would've been damn-lucky to get anything higher than 2nd team OG but his previous year's status got him 1st team.
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Post by fantom on Nov 20, 2020 10:32:55 GMT -6
Yea that seems like a mess and not the best system for choosing all state. How about this for how Rhode Island chooses....the coaches vote for all conference (we call ours divisions here), but that's it. Our states biggest news paper, The Providence Journal, independently chooses the All State teams. More specifically the sports writers that cover high school football. It really depends on the conference you're in and the personalities of the coaches.
In one division, we listed all of the contenders for 1st team All-Conference and voted with simple criteria: "Regardless of scheme, who would you want starting for your varsity?" Coaches could make pitches for various players but ultimately, majority ruled. We then did the same thing for 2nd team all-conference with the caveat: "Who would be the backups for the 1st team." Honorable mention was handled as "who would be third string?".
We agreed that all-state would just fall in place after that; it didn't matter if he was all-state the previous year. This set some coaches off but it was understood that the previous year's status shouldn't affect that year's.
In the situation I described previously, our senior ILB/OG wouldn't have even been considered as an all-conference ILB; there were just kids that played better than he did (including our junior). And, he would've been damn-lucky to get anything higher than 2nd team OG but his previous year's status got him 1st team.
I'm having a hard time understanding how this is organized. Do the exact same people choose all-conference and all-state? |
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Post by coachcb on Nov 20, 2020 10:44:13 GMT -6
It really depends on the conference you're in and the personalities of the coaches.
In one division, we listed all of the contenders for 1st team All-Conference and voted with simple criteria: "Regardless of scheme, who would you want starting for your varsity?" Coaches could make pitches for various players but ultimately, majority ruled. We then did the same thing for 2nd team all-conference with the caveat: "Who would be the backups for the 1st team." Honorable mention was handled as "who would be third string?".
We agreed that all-state would just fall in place after that; it didn't matter if he was all-state the previous year. This set some coaches off but it was understood that the previous year's status shouldn't affect that year's.
In the situation I described previously, our senior ILB/OG wouldn't have even been considered as an all-conference ILB; there were just kids that played better than he did (including our junior). And, he would've been damn-lucky to get anything higher than 2nd team OG but his previous year's status got him 1st team.
I'm having a hard time understanding how this is organized. Do the exact same people choose all-conference and all-state?
The coaches within each individual conference meet and vote for all-conference and all-state. Each conference is allotted a base number of all-state choices that those same coaches decide. This wouldn't be so difficult if we didn't have the rule that a player must be all conference on both sides of the ball in order to be all-state. So, yes, the same people choose all-state and all-conference, from the conference.
It's small town ball so your best athletes are almost always going both ways but it can make the whole process clunky and disorganized. That year, we had al all-state RB/OLB and he was one of the best athletes in the state. However I didn't feel that he really showed his merit as a RB that season as his performance was hit or miss. Certainly, he was a stud OLB and deserved an all-state nod at that spot but not necessarily as a RB.
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Post by CanyonCoach on Dec 1, 2020 9:39:42 GMT -6
Coaches,
Thanks for the input. I was shot down regarding the rules based on all conference. The coaches make nominations and the vote goes to all conference coaches but only the top 3 in each conference gets to vote for all state.
We are not a perennial power so we get run over in state wide voting.
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