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Post by optioncoach14 on Oct 21, 2020 14:12:34 GMT -6
Coaches, the school that i am at is moving to the flexbone (spread last year). As we have not started practicing yet (conditioning starts Nov 8, can start using a football Dec 8, season starts January 8) my question is: Am i being too ambitious with thinking of trying to install triple option, midline double, rocket toss, and zone dive as the base for this year? I know that the triple takes a lot of reps, but we are going to be running it for the foreseeable future. If it is too ambitious, i was thinking of basing with midline, zone dive, zone option (fake dive and run double option), rocket toss and trap. What are your opinions?
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Post by bluedevil4 on Oct 21, 2020 14:28:02 GMT -6
That's a good starting point really. You should be good with high school...IF you're repping them enough. Midline and veer are a little ambitious IMO if this is youth ball.
I think if you invest in midline and actually commit to it being a part of the game-plan, you'll be surprised with the mileage it can give you.
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Post by chi5hi on Oct 21, 2020 15:17:38 GMT -6
If this is the future of your team, I say jump in!
Double options are for teams that dabble in option football. T/O is for teams who commit to it.
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Post by CS on Oct 21, 2020 15:47:00 GMT -6
If this is the future of your team, I say jump in! Double options are for teams that dabble in option football. T/O is for teams who commit to it. This is incorrect
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Post by CS on Oct 21, 2020 15:53:36 GMT -6
Coaches, the school that i am at is moving to the flexbone (spread last year). As we have not started practicing yet (conditioning starts Nov 8, can start using a football Dec 8, season starts January 8) my question is: Am i being too ambitious with thinking of trying to install triple option, midline double, rocket toss, and zone dive as the base for this year? I know that the triple takes a lot of reps, but we are going to be running it for the foreseeable future. If it is too ambitious, i was thinking of basing with midline, zone dive, zone option (fake dive and run double option), rocket toss and trap. What are your opinions? If you want to run mid double I would drop IV and run mid triple instead. If we are talking just running 4 plays because they are blocked the same by everyone but the play side tackle and slot. We are dropping IV for the year because I just haven't called it enough to waste practice time on it. So we now carry 8 run plays and 3 are blocked the exact same.
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Post by bigmoot on Oct 21, 2020 15:56:15 GMT -6
Have a plan B. Power, etc
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Post by blb on Oct 21, 2020 16:15:47 GMT -6
There are option teams, and then there are teams that run the option.
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Post by CS on Oct 22, 2020 6:30:07 GMT -6
Big 6 1) IV, 2) Zone dive, 3) Mid double, 4) Mid triple, 5) Toss, 6) Belly then you have 2-3 mixers of your choosing. We run zone option, qb zone option keep, and counter trey.
1 and 2 are blocked similar, 3 and 4 are blocked similar, zone option and zone option keep have the exact blocking scheme as zone dive for the line, then belly, counter, and toss are all different
I just installed the flex at a school that has been in the spread for 18 years in about the same time frame as you have. I have over a decade in the offense and can tell you that you will spend most of your first year getting them used to new techniques.
You will suck a$$ at IV the first year and lose if you feel like you have to run it to be considered an option team. Even the service academies are getting away from running so much IV. Mid triple is a superior play to IV and should be in your arsenal.
The great thing about it is every time you get a rep at mid double you are getting reps for mid triple and vice versa. For the zone schemes your OLine is getting reps on the same blocking scheme every time you run one of those plays and they get really good at it. Plus it's almost the same blocking scheme as IV so you can go into year 2 with a solid base to get good at IV.
I speak with an option coach considered one of if not the best guy to go to for this offense weekly and he said first year get good at mid triple, zone dive and toss and you can put up a lot of points.
Practice is more important than anything also. You need to know how to do it efficiently and get the kids the looks they will see every day. Know your rule, technique your rule
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Post by rsmith627 on Oct 22, 2020 6:56:43 GMT -6
I think this is a good base to start out with if we're talking high school as already mentioned here. This is probably a drastic departure from what your kids did when they were lined up in the spread, so just running your core plays this year will be key throughout your program.
You have to make sure the coaches know how to adjust to different looks that you're going to get. It's also important your kids understand what those adjustments mean and how blocking assignments can change based on what a defense does.
Be prepared to see the defense of the week. When I ran it we seldom got a look that we had spent the week prepping for. It wasn't a big deal because we and our kids knew how to adjust, but we kept it simple early on. We ran IV, toss, and midline (double) as our core. We had a few base quick and play action passes. We then added some tags as time went on and kids became more comfortable. For us they were switching to flex from an air raid philosophy. Our OL had grown up and had never even been in a three point stance let alone asked to run block much.
Don't hesitate to reach out as you transition. I don't have all the answers but I'm sure I have quite a few as things come up.
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Post by optioncoach14 on Oct 22, 2020 7:09:21 GMT -6
rsmith627, I’m the only coach that knows anything about Option football on the staff (5 coaches and I’m the OC). My only concern is the one month we have between when we start practice to the season starting. But if I KISS, then perhaps we can get enough reps in to be comfortable. As far as your PA, I know there’s the vertical concept and the switch (post-Wheel) concept. What else has worked for you?
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Post by optioncoach14 on Oct 22, 2020 7:13:41 GMT -6
cs a couple questions: 1) do you suggest then that I go with mid-triple instead of IV for this season and install it next season? 2) what does your practice look like? I’m thinking of one day running the O vs an even look (4-3/4-4) and odd front the next (5-2/3-3-5). Is this a good idea?
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Post by rsmith627 on Oct 22, 2020 7:14:45 GMT -6
rsmith627, I’m the only coach that knows anything about Option football on the staff (5 coaches and I’m the OC). My only concern is the one month we have between when we start practice to the season starting. But if I KISS, then perhaps we can get enough reps in to be comfortable. As far as your PA, I know there’s the vertical concept and the switch (post-Wheel) concept. What else has worked for you? I’ll look back through my things. Those were our bread and butter. Switch killed teams when we were switch blocking a ton on veer. If you haven’t, Google flexbone nation. There’s a really good blog and a forum full of knowledgeable flex coaches. I’d get your guys on there. They can find countless drills, coaching points, and whatever. It’s all guys that have been immersed in this O for years. I’m a Navy purist and a lot of them are as well, but if you’re looking into adding things like TEs so you can run OV there is a lot of knowledge there as well.
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SconnieOC
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Post by SconnieOC on Oct 22, 2020 7:22:44 GMT -6
IMO that list is great.. I would add in the mid triple. If you're really worried about your QB's ability to read 3 phases on 2 different plays, you can run IV double with the dive, IV double with the pitch (auto pull), Mid double with the dive, and mid double with the pitch. I think those 2 plays compliment each other so well. Run veer, as soon as the safeties start rolling hard, you can get them with the twirl motion on midline, that's where big plays hit.
Now I think you can handle that if you're efficient in practice and your QB is smart. OL will figure it out with enough reps. If you're really worried its too much I can get behind just running zone dive and midline.. but I like having the pitch option whether thats load or whatever you want basing off that stack motion. If you're heavy midline, get trap in there too. Cheap and advantageous.
We got really good at using formations like Over, and Snug to dictate what we wanted to do.
Bouncing off Rsmith here.. if you're going true no TE flexbone, these are my thoughts, if you're using TE's, my answer is different.
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Post by optioncoach14 on Oct 22, 2020 7:39:35 GMT -6
rsmith627 and @sconnieoc I’m a Navy purist as well. I’m only 31, but my first exposure to Option football was in 2002 (Army-Navy) and I fell in love with the Option. I have been wanting to run the triple my whole life and it’s what I believe in. I’m so excited to have this opportunity and I want to get it right. To your points, I’m looking at no TE (will use heavy formation/tackle over). I’ve definitely checked out Flexbone Nation, it’s a great resource. Also some useful stuff on Flexbone Association and Veersite. If we can get good at the base (thinking of just jumping in with triple, zone dive, midline, and rocket toss) I want to add in mid-veer and trap later in the season, and possibly belly. I know practice time will be key, and any ideas you have will be greatly appreciated.
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SconnieOC
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Post by SconnieOC on Oct 22, 2020 7:48:27 GMT -6
rsmith627 and @sconnieoc I’m a Navy purist as well. I’m only 31, but my first exposure to Option football was in 2002 (Army-Navy) and I fell in love with the Option. I have been wanting to run the triple my whole life and it’s what I believe in. I’m so excited to have this opportunity and I want to get it right. To your points, I’m looking at no TE (will use heavy formation/tackle over). I’ve definitely checked out Flexbone Nation, it’s a great resource. Also some useful stuff on Flexbone Association and Veersite. If we can get good at the base (thinking of just jumping in with triple, zone dive, midline, and rocket toss) I want to add in mid-veer and trap later in the season, and possibly belly. I know practice time will be key, and any ideas you have will be greatly appreciated. I think you're on the right track. Just depends on what your kids can handle and your coaches can coach by December
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 7:50:14 GMT -6
rsmith627 and @sconnieoc I’m a Navy purist as well. I’m only 31, but my first exposure to Option football was in 2002 (Army-Navy) and I fell in love with the Option. I have been wanting to run the triple my whole life and it’s what I believe in. I’m so excited to have this opportunity and I want to get it right. To your points, I’m looking at no TE (will use heavy formation/tackle over). I’ve definitely checked out Flexbone Nation, it’s a great resource. Also some useful stuff on Flexbone Association and Veersite. If we can get good at the base (thinking of just jumping in with triple, zone dive, midline, and rocket toss) I want to add in mid-veer and trap later in the season, and possibly belly. I know practice time will be key, and any ideas you have will be greatly appreciated. Triple is a bitch. One thing to do it in practice...
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Post by CS on Oct 22, 2020 8:15:13 GMT -6
cs a couple questions: 1) do you suggest then that I go with mid-triple instead of IV for this season and install it next season? 2) what does your practice look like? I’m thinking of one day running the O vs an even look (4-3/4-4) and odd front the next (5-2/3-3-5). Is this a good idea? I would install mid triple and get good at it and start reping IV later this season when you have gotten established in the other plays. IV is a whole other animal as far as techniques compared to the other plays. It's the only ball line play in the offense. The other plays are heel line plays so you are reping the crap out of your QB on that. I suggested those plays because you will get a ton of reps of the same techniques and will get proficient in the offense quicker than if you install what you had originally stated We practice against even and odd everyday. There are specific tags that are the only way you can get some plays going vs certain fronts 10-min everyone indo 10-min option drill, line continues indo work all the fits(regular, 3-2-exchange, 1-2-exchange) 15-min pod or gpod (2 groups, 48 plays) 15-min half line (2 groups 48 plays) 3 rounds 1st round IV vs 2 even 2 odd, 2nd round Mid Triple vs 2 even 2 odd, 3rd round is usually PAP but I will work zone option here as well Now that we have dropped IV for the season we will replace that round with zone option and pick back up on IV in the spring
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Post by CS on Oct 22, 2020 8:30:44 GMT -6
I should add that we finish Monday with team take off for 5 min and its just reping toss with all the tags. 2 groups 16 plays and it's for conditioning and the only time in the week we rep toss
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SconnieOC
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Post by SconnieOC on Oct 22, 2020 8:34:49 GMT -6
cs a couple questions: 1) do you suggest then that I go with mid-triple instead of IV for this season and install it next season? 2) what does your practice look like? I’m thinking of one day running the O vs an even look (4-3/4-4) and odd front the next (5-2/3-3-5). Is this a good idea? I would install mid triple and get good at it and start reping IV later this season when you have gotten established in the other plays. IV is a whole other animal as far as techniques compared to the other plays. It's the only ball line play in the offense. The other plays are heel line plays so you are reping the crap out of your QB on that. I suggested those plays because you will get a ton of reps of the same techniques and will get proficient in the offense quicker than if you install what you had originally stated We practice against even and odd everyday. There are specific tags that are the only way you can get some plays going vs certain fronts 10-min everyone indo 10-min option drill, line continues indo work all the fits(regular, 3-2-exchange, 1-2-exchange) 15-min pod or gpod (2 groups, 48 plays) 15-min half line (2 groups 48 plays) 3 rounds 1st round IV vs 2 even 2 odd, 2nd round Mid Triple vs 2 even 2 odd, 3rd round is usually PAP but I will work zone option here as well Now that we have dropped IV for the season we will replace that round with zone option and pick back up on IV in the spring Good points here Coach. I always have a hard time letting IV slide, since that's what I was raised on, but you're definitely correct on the coaching points being different relative to other stuff.
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Post by CS on Oct 22, 2020 9:01:28 GMT -6
I would install mid triple and get good at it and start reping IV later this season when you have gotten established in the other plays. IV is a whole other animal as far as techniques compared to the other plays. It's the only ball line play in the offense. The other plays are heel line plays so you are reping the crap out of your QB on that. I suggested those plays because you will get a ton of reps of the same techniques and will get proficient in the offense quicker than if you install what you had originally stated We practice against even and odd everyday. There are specific tags that are the only way you can get some plays going vs certain fronts 10-min everyone indo 10-min option drill, line continues indo work all the fits(regular, 3-2-exchange, 1-2-exchange) 15-min pod or gpod (2 groups, 48 plays) 15-min half line (2 groups 48 plays) 3 rounds 1st round IV vs 2 even 2 odd, 2nd round Mid Triple vs 2 even 2 odd, 3rd round is usually PAP but I will work zone option here as well Now that we have dropped IV for the season we will replace that round with zone option and pick back up on IV in the spring Good points here Coach. I always have a hard time letting IV slide, since that's what I was raised on, but you're definitely correct on the coaching points being different relative to other stuff. It's just a matter of training your players that have no clue about anything you're doing and being some what successful year 1. I had no one that had ever taken a snap under center and an oline that were in 2 point stances. He will probably have the same issues. Reps, Reps, Reps
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Post by optioncoach14 on Oct 22, 2020 10:40:49 GMT -6
CS, can you elaborate on some of the tags that you mentioned, as well as explaining a bit more of a 3-2 exchange? I know that's when #3 and #2 exchange responsibilities, but how do you deal with that? Is it just changing up the blocking scheme?
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Post by CS on Oct 22, 2020 11:14:10 GMT -6
CS, can you elaborate on some of the tags that you mentioned, as well as explaining a bit more of a 3-2 exchange? I know that's when #3 and #2 exchange responsibilities, but how do you deal with that? Is it just changing up the blocking scheme? For example releasing your tackle outside a 5 on mid triple vs a 4-3 defense. Its the only way you can have numbers on the perimeter. You need to be able to handle a 3-2-exchange by rule but you can tag the perimeter to handle it as well as using flex formation to stop it. You can teach blocking the perimeter 2 ways 1) count system 2) block who shows and pitch off who shows. The latter is easier to pick up stunts but plenty of people have had success doing it the 1st way
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Post by optioncoach14 on Oct 22, 2020 14:57:07 GMT -6
How much pass game would anyone recommend? Obviously PAP. Other than that, maybe some sprint-out and i'd like to to Tony Demeo's 3 step boot. Looks like it fits in with the Rocket Bootleg/Waggle.
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Post by CS on Oct 22, 2020 18:19:59 GMT -6
How much pass game would anyone recommend? Obviously PAP. Other than that, maybe some sprint-out and i'd like to to Tony Demeo's 3 step boot. Looks like it fits in with the Rocket Bootleg/Waggle. We practice 4 pap’s. One off of mid triple action, one off toss action and 2 off of veer action
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SconnieOC
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Post by SconnieOC on Oct 23, 2020 7:59:06 GMT -6
How much pass game would anyone recommend? Obviously PAP. Other than that, maybe some sprint-out and i'd like to to Tony Demeo's 3 step boot. Looks like it fits in with the Rocket Bootleg/Waggle. We practice 4 pap’s. One off of mid triple action, one off toss action and 2 off of veer action We have 4 different play action concepts. -Post/arrow -Backside Post/Dig (PA away from post) -Slot vert/curl -Smash/Snag (smash off veer/midline, snag off toss) We can run all 4 of these off of Veer, Midline, and Toss. Slight protection adjustments but basically IV and Mid OL works backside gap, FB fits frontside C, and Toss the OL works frontside with FB fitting backside C. We had 4 Sprint Out Concepts, 2 Cov 3 type beaters for single high teams, and 2 Cov 2/Cov 4/Man beaters 1 true bootleg off of toss 1 screen A lot of stuff there, and not all necessary, but situationally it all had a purpose, and our guys were so conditioned in the system, it didn't take much to get them in. For a first year program, Initial install should be 1 PA off veer, 1 PA off toss, 2 sprints, bootleg
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Post by coachcb on Oct 23, 2020 8:45:39 GMT -6
Walk this back and ask yourself two questions:
1. Do you have a guy that can coach up the option reads and backfield technique?
2. Do you have a competent OL coach?
This has been my personal conundrum when trying to install triple option. I was the sole coach on staff that could handle the OL and coach the backfield. Hence why we're Wing-T and not SBV or Flexbone. The assisting staff members just didn't have the experience to handle those positions. Good coaches and good people but just not ready to take over those roles.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 23, 2020 10:06:25 GMT -6
Walk this back and ask yourself two questions: 1. Do you have a guy that can coach up the option reads and backfield technique? 2. Do you have a competent OL coach? This has been my personal conundrum when trying to install triple option. I was the sole coach on staff that could handle the OL and coach the backfield. Hence why we're Wing-T and not SBV or Flexbone. The assisting staff members just didn't have the experience to handle those positions. Good coaches and good people but just not ready to take over those roles. I would echo this here. Installing Navy/Flexbone because you have "been wanting to run the triple"/"fell in love with the triple watching army/navy" doesn't seem like the best avenue to success. From the tone of your posts, I can't really tell if you have ever been in a flexbone system before as a coach. Have you?
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Post by peacock1915 on Oct 28, 2020 17:32:43 GMT -6
Big 6 1) IV, 2) Zone dive, 3) Mid double, 4) Mid triple, 5) Toss, 6) Belly then you have 2-3 mixers of your choosing. We run zone option, qb zone option keep, and counter trey. 1 and 2 are blocked similar, 3 and 4 are blocked similar, zone option and zone option keep have the exact blocking scheme as zone dive for the line, then belly, counter, and toss are all different I just installed the flex at a school that has been in the spread for 18 years in about the same time frame as you have. I have over a decade in the offense and can tell you that you will spend most of your first year getting them used to new techniques. You will suck a$$ at IV the first year and lose if you feel like you have to run it to be considered an option team. Even the service academies are getting away from running so much IV. Mid triple is a superior play to IV and should be in your arsenal. The great thing about it is every time you get a rep at mid double you are getting reps for mid triple and vice versa. For the zone schemes your OLine is getting reps on the same blocking scheme every time you run one of those plays and they get really good at it. Plus it's almost the same blocking scheme as IV so you can go into year 2 with a solid base to get good at IV. I speak with an option coach considered one of if not the best guy to go to for this offense weekly and he said first year get good at mid triple, zone dive and toss and you can put up a lot of points. Practice is more important than anything also. You need to know how to do it efficiently and get the kids the looks they will see every day. Know your rule, technique your rule This is great advice. I would go mid triple over inside veer every time if i could only pick one. As some others have said www.flexbonenation.com If your anywhere near Arkansas, go to Harding and watch them practice. They are in mine and a lot of other flex guy opinions the absolute best at running it. Army visited them this last spring. If on twitter follow 3phasefootball , @flexbonenation Last thing is get good at Belly in year 1 it helps attack a lot of the things teams do to stop IV and other option stuff.
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Post by newt21 on Oct 28, 2020 18:51:00 GMT -6
Flexbone nation, first and foremost.
If you have a QB that’s not a senior, start banking inside veer reps now. You don’t have to call it the first week or two (or three) as long as you have zone dive and zone option installed. I actually think that zone option is more important than toss, call me crazy.
Here’s what my install would be if I were an OC again: Inside veer Zone Option Zone dive Midline Mid triple Inside veer tags Midline tags
Beyond this I’d go qb counter trey, down, and down option. That’s more than enough run game for anybody.
Like I said, you don’t have to truly run triple early on, just have to have all 3 phases available and show that you can execute all three.
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