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Post by larrymoe on Jun 7, 2020 15:20:58 GMT -6
Football has become soft, but not because we now give them water. But because the adults in the room now want to feel the love. Consequences are now nearly illegal. Football is safer not softer. I ask kids to do way more than we were asked to do in the 80's and 90's. It's not even close. They're physically present more. I doubt you physically exert them more.
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 7, 2020 18:52:00 GMT -6
Football is safer not softer. I ask kids to do way more than we were asked to do in the 80's and 90's. It's not even close. They're physically present more. I doubt you physically exert them more. As far as a twelve month program yes. Actual in season practice is far less. The mental side is harder now. Despite what many on this board want to believe about themselves the game itself harder and more demanding than what it was in the past. With all of the options they have I respect a kid who plays football today a whole lot more than I do myself or my peers.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 7, 2020 19:51:20 GMT -6
They're physically present more. I doubt you physically exert them more. As far as a twelve month program yes. Actual in season practice is far less. The mental side is harder now. Despite what many on this board want to believe about themselves the game itself harder and more demanding than what it was in the past. With all of the options they have I respect a kid who plays football today a whole lot more than I do myself or my peers. We had a 12 month program called other sports though. There is absolutely no difference in mental aspect for pretty much anyone outside maybe QB or RB. And even then, the triple option of the past wasn't anything easier than an RPO. Your saying the game is mentally demanding of a DL?
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 7, 2020 21:02:27 GMT -6
As far as a twelve month program yes. Actual in season practice is far less. The mental side is harder now. Despite what many on this board want to believe about themselves the game itself harder and more demanding than what it was in the past. With all of the options they have I respect a kid who plays football today a whole lot more than I do myself or my peers. We had a 12 month program called other sports though. There is absolutely no difference in mental aspect for pretty much anyone outside maybe QB or RB. And even then, the triple option of the past wasn't anything easier than an RPO. Your saying the game is mentally demanding of a DL? It's physically more demanding in almost every position, especially on defense... I would say the mental load across the board is higher because they have far more to deal with than we did. They have better things to do and way more distractions.
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Post by s73 on Jun 7, 2020 21:39:01 GMT -6
I see it kind of like this. If I go to the gym and bust my a$$ for 2-3 hours hard, I am then not going to say " well I just worked out hard so I better run 6 100 yard sprints to make sure I get my conditioning" . What did I just work out for if I need to follow up with a workout to make sure I worked out enough?
In other words, if you work your kids correctly they shouldn't need an extra work session to make sure they are in shape.
But....many (less now probably) still do this.
Bust it for 2.5 hours and then we're gonna run. Wait coach, I've been running all practice why do I need to run some more?
Basically to me this program is a complicated way of saying don't over train your kids if you expect them to feel good by game time.
It's the same for any athlete in any sport. Hence the term "taper".
I think FB coaches in the past were notorious for not understanding the concept of tapering before a competition but it's a pretty common form of training in almost any other sport.
JMO.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 8, 2020 6:38:34 GMT -6
We had a 12 month program called other sports though. There is absolutely no difference in mental aspect for pretty much anyone outside maybe QB or RB. And even then, the triple option of the past wasn't anything easier than an RPO. Your saying the game is mentally demanding of a DL? It's physically more demanding in almost every position, especially on defense... I would say the mental load across the board is higher because they have far more to deal with than we did. They have better things to do and way more distractions. How is it physically more demanding? You playing a different game than I played or coached? How is the mental load more? Zone blocking, for instance, has made OL monumentally easier IMO. In a lot of schemes, there's only 3-5 blocking schemes. Total. Hell, the spread was the rage to take thinking out of the game and "let athletes make plays in space". I also would disagree with distractions. I know I sound 1000 years old, bit we had video games. We had jobs. We had cell phones. We still played 2 and 3 sports.
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 8, 2020 7:27:56 GMT -6
It's physically more demanding in almost every position, especially on defense... I would say the mental load across the board is higher because they have far more to deal with than we did. They have better things to do and way more distractions. How is it physically more demanding? You playing a different game than I played or coached? How is the mental load more? Zone blocking, for instance, has made OL monumentally easier IMO. In a lot of schemes, there's only 3-5 blocking schemes. Total. Hell, the spread was the rage to take thinking out of the game and "let athletes make plays in space". I also would disagree with distractions. I know I sound 1000 years old, bit we had video games. We had jobs. We had cell phones. We still played 2 and 3 sports. I hope you taught gym.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 8, 2020 7:50:45 GMT -6
How is it physically more demanding? You playing a different game than I played or coached? How is the mental load more? Zone blocking, for instance, has made OL monumentally easier IMO. In a lot of schemes, there's only 3-5 blocking schemes. Total. Hell, the spread was the rage to take thinking out of the game and "let athletes make plays in space". I also would disagree with distractions. I know I sound 1000 years old, bit we had video games. We had jobs. We had cell phones. We still played 2 and 3 sports. I hope you taught gym. Nope. Social Studies. Pretty good at it too. And, wtf does that have to do with anything?
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 8, 2020 8:02:23 GMT -6
Nope. Social Studies. Pretty good at it too. And, wtf does that have to do with anything? Yeesh.
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Post by s73 on Jun 8, 2020 8:07:56 GMT -6
As far as a twelve month program yes. Actual in season practice is far less. The mental side is harder now. Despite what many on this board want to believe about themselves the game itself harder and more demanding than what it was in the past. With all of the options they have I respect a kid who plays football today a whole lot more than I do myself or my peers. We had a 12 month program called other sports though. There is absolutely no difference in mental aspect for pretty much anyone outside maybe QB or RB. And even then, the triple option of the past wasn't anything easier than an RPO. Your saying the game is mentally demanding of a DL? I respectfully disagree with this. When I played we had no summer contact other than lifting. Now teams have 25 days of summer camp (pre-season) which has led to larger playbooks that, when done correctly by a solid program can still be executed at a very high level. Been coaching for 25 years and b/c of year round lifting in the last 15-20 years kids are getting bigger, faster and stronger. It also used to be when I first started, the defense you saw on film was pretty static. Now we see multi fronts, multi coverages all of the time. I can only speak from my experience but back in the day we basically saw 1 look from the defense. Now we tend to see more variations. I feel from a coaching standpoint this has made things more challenging and this gets passed onto the kids through more audibles and prep time to maintain a high execution curve. And, like I stated before, at least in my area, kids have improved physically due to more training, hence IME the game is more challenging both mentally and physically for kids and coaches. JMO though.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 8, 2020 8:39:33 GMT -6
How is it physically more demanding? You playing a different game than I played or coached? How is the mental load more? Zone blocking, for instance, has made OL monumentally easier IMO. In a lot of schemes, there's only 3-5 blocking schemes. Total. Hell, the spread was the rage to take thinking out of the game and "let athletes make plays in space". I also would disagree with distractions. I know I sound 1000 years old, bit we had video games. We had jobs. We had cell phones. We still played 2 and 3 sports. I hope you taught gym.
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 8, 2020 9:09:45 GMT -6
So good. As far as education movies I have to go with "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" but this is a close second.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 8, 2020 15:30:35 GMT -6
Nope. Social Studies. Pretty good at it too. And, wtf does that have to do with anything? Yeesh. Good answer. Thanks.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 24, 2023 21:20:40 GMT -6
Update for the FTC crowd : Brad Dixon and Camp Point Central (CPC) won the 1a state championship in Illinois this morning. They took down the Lena-Winslow (LW) Panthers, who were playing for a 4th consecutive state title and have not lost a game since the spring Covid season in 2021. Last year, LW beat CPC 30-8 in the title game. Today, CPC won 14-0. The LW line outweighed the CPC line by almost 50lbs a man yet CPC controlled the line of scrimmage. By the 4th Qt, CPC had worn LW down. I have never seen that happen to a LW team in the postseason. Tip of the cap to Coach Dixon and the CPC Panthers. So, needless to say, Coach Dixon is going to be a really popular and busy guy this offseason.
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Post by CS on Nov 25, 2023 5:22:09 GMT -6
Update for the FTC crowd : Brad Dixon and Camp Point Central (CPC) won the 1a state championship in Illinois this morning. They took down the Lena-Winslow (LW) Panthers, who were playing for a 4th consecutive state title and have not lost a game since the spring Covid season in 2021. Last year, LW beat CPC 30-8 in the title game last year. Today, CPC won 14-0. The LW line outweighed the CPC line by almost 50lbs a man yet CPC controlled the line of scrimmage. By the 4th Qt, CPC had worn LW down. I have never seen that happen to a LW team in the postseason. Tip of the cap to Coach Dixon and the CPC Panthers. So, needless to say, Coach Dixon is going to be a really popular and busy guy this offseason. Apparently the other team is a FTC team also.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 25, 2023 7:33:58 GMT -6
Update for the FTC crowd : Brad Dixon and Camp Point Central (CPC) won the 1a state championship in Illinois this morning. They took down the Lena-Winslow (LW) Panthers, who were playing for a 4th consecutive state title and have not lost a game since the spring Covid season in 2021. Last year, LW beat CPC 30-8 in the title game last year. Today, CPC won 14-0. The LW line outweighed the CPC line by almost 50lbs a man yet CPC controlled the line of scrimmage. By the 4th Qt, CPC had worn LW down. I have never seen that happen to a LW team in the postseason. Tip of the cap to Coach Dixon and the CPC Panthers. So, needless to say, Coach Dixon is going to be a really popular and busy guy this offseason. Apparently the other team is a FTC team also. I have not heard of LW being an actual “FTC” school, at least to the extent that CPC is. With that being said, they do have a very strong track and field tradition. Historically, the best football players at LW do track and field (or the best track and field athletes played football, however you want to look at it). In fact, the former LW T&F coach, who has since retired, was the LW JV coach for a really long time. So the football program at LW certainly supports the T&F program and encourages football players to do track (and vice versa).
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 25, 2023 8:57:43 GMT -6
So, needless to say, Coach Dixon is going to be a really popular and busy guy this offseason. Wasn't he already? I think he gets on here from time to time, so, congratulations Coach!
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Post by realdawg on Nov 27, 2023 8:42:41 GMT -6
I am interested in FTC philosophy, but I would like to see an actual example of the program laid out. Anyone know where I can find one?
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Post by coachks on Nov 27, 2023 13:14:31 GMT -6
Downside of FTC --
We are using an FTC approach. Minimal conditioning (first few weeks of the season we did some prowler pushes on the days before we had pads). Full speed sprint work in-season (during S&C Class).
I've been getting absolutely hammered by the AD and other school members that football practice is too easy, specifically because we do not condition enough. That "baseball practice should not be harder than football practice"
14-9 in 2 seasons (best 2 year stretch in about 15 years). First playoff win in 15 years last year. First home playoff game in 15 years this year. Virtually no soft-tissue injuries (or really any injuries. One separated shoulder, one bruised knee, one AC Sprain).
But the perception that it is "soft" is tough for certain types to overcome.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 27, 2023 13:43:55 GMT -6
I've been getting absolutely ***hammered by the AD and other school members*** that football practice is too easy, specifically because we do not condition enough. That "baseball practice should not be harder than football practice" ***14-9 in 2 seasons (best 2 year stretch in about 15 years). First playoff win in 15 years last year. First home playoff game in 15 years this year.*** Virtually no soft-tissue injuries (or really any injuries. One separated shoulder, one bruised knee, one AC Sprain). But the perception that it is "soft" is tough for certain types to overcome. WOW Hang in there Coach! By the way, they are right. Baseball practice shouldn't be harder than football practice so tell the baseball coach to work on the things that matter in baseball instead of conditioning. Hey, wait. Now I am guilty of criticizing a program that I know nothing about. Anyways, congrats on turning the program around.
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Post by irishdog on Nov 27, 2023 13:45:06 GMT -6
Old school here. During our "fundamentals" period (15 minutes each day except Thursdays) our offensive interior linemen hit the 5 man sled, our TE's and RB's hit the 2 man sled, and the WR's hit the 1 man sled. This was done on M-W. Defense "fundamentals" period was done on M-T. Not only helped our conditioning but obviously helped with our overall strength, learning to be physical, and blocking/tackling skills. I can't speak for FTC (whatever that is), but we always concerned ourselves with improving, developing, and highlighting our players' strengths, and prevent exposing their weaknesses. I coached at schools where we rarely had football only athletes, so it was incumbent upon me (as HFC and AD) to do as much as possible to enhance our athletes' strength, conditioning, and mindsets to get them through football successfully and prepare them for their winter/spring sports.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 27, 2023 14:43:47 GMT -6
Downside of FTC -- We are using an FTC approach. Minimal conditioning (first few weeks of the season we did some prowler pushes on the days before we had pads). Full speed sprint work in-season (during S&C Class). I've been getting absolutely hammered by the AD and other school members that football practice is too easy, specifically because we do not condition enough. That "baseball practice should not be harder than football practice" 14-9 in 2 seasons (best 2 year stretch in about 15 years). First playoff win in 15 years last year. First home playoff game in 15 years this year. Virtually no soft-tissue injuries (or really any injuries. One separated shoulder, one bruised knee, one AC Sprain). But the perception that it is "soft" is tough for certain types to overcome. I was never officially a FTC guy, but I ran into a similar situation in 2010 when I took over for a guy who had been there for 25 years. I stopped practicing on Saturdays, I quit endlessly running at the end of practice, I quit doing conditioning stuff that had no point (mostly things like bear crawls, monkey rolls, crab walks, etc). We started out rough (4-5 my first year, which was below the norm there) and I heard all the same things you do. I was too soft, we'd never win unless I punished kids, "back in my day I had to bear crawl around the practice field for xxx minutes", etc. Year 2 we went 6-4, won the conference and started a 24 game regular season win streak. Suddenly, no one had a problem. If you like what you're doing, and it's being successful, {censored} those idiots.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 27, 2023 14:48:53 GMT -6
We always did our hardest conditioning after warmups so that it was essentially a part of warm ups. On offensive days we ran 10 40yd sprints with rest time so that they could go hard all 10. On defensive days it was our pursuit drill. During Indy we'd do a position based conditioning. For OL that usually meant driving the sled (as I believe I said earlier in the thread). WRs/RBs/etc would do a competitive 7on7. Then we'd do a special team followed by one DBD (down back down across the field). That was timed and if we improved as a team, that would basically be the conditioning for the day. Then we'd go to team time to finish the day.
I don't think that's too far off the FTC plan except maybe the sprints. And those were done on Tuesday.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Nov 27, 2023 14:53:35 GMT -6
One thing I think we are forgetting here is that teenagers have an unbelievable recovery time. Can't tell you how many times we've finished a pretty grueling practice only to find kids goofing off, running around near the parking lot waiting for their kids to pick them up. We're not dealing with old men with back pain who have 1 good play left in them.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 27, 2023 16:39:02 GMT -6
goofing off, running around near the parking lot waiting for their kids to pick them up. Your coaching place sounds interesting...
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 27, 2023 16:41:30 GMT -6
One thing I think we are forgetting here is that teenagers have an unbelievable recovery time. Can't tell you how many times we've finished a pretty grueling practice only to find kids goofing off, running around near the parking lot waiting for their kids to pick them up. We're not dealing with old men with back pain who have 1 good play left in them. Smartassery aside, I agree. I also think that grinding them for 16 straight weeks can be very detrimental. If I had to do it all over again, I'd definitely lighten up a LOT more toward the end of the season if I thought we had a chance to make a run. I didn't do that in 13 and it will always eat at me. The what if.
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Post by irishdog on Nov 27, 2023 17:20:18 GMT -6
One thing I think we are forgetting here is that teenagers have an unbelievable recovery time. Can't tell you how many times we've finished a pretty grueling practice only to find kids goofing off, running around near the parking lot waiting for their kids to pick them up. We're not dealing with old men with back pain who have 1 good play left in them. Smartassery aside, I agree. I also think that grinding them for 16 straight weeks can be very detrimental. If I had to do it all over again, I'd definitely lighten up a LOT more toward the end of the season if I thought we had a chance to make a run. I didn't do that in 13 and it will always eat at me. The what if. I'm with you on that. The only "tough" part of practices later in the season were the "fundamentals" periods. Most of practices at that time was spent on game prep, O/D recognition, reps, 2 minute drill, special teams, and goal line O/D. After eight or nine games playing well enough to qualify for the playoffs if our kids weren't "tough" enough by that point we would likely not make a deep run anyway. I just felt no matter what happened there would always be the "what ifs."
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Post by 3rdandlong on Nov 27, 2023 17:31:41 GMT -6
goofing off, running around near the parking lot waiting for their kids to pick them up. Your coaching place sounds interesting... There's a grass area by the parking lot where kids hang out and wait to get picked up. Inevitably, there's always some kind of grab assery, tag type of game. Other times, I've seen kids go from football practice to playing a pick up basketball game on the blacktop courts near the locker room. The point is they have a high level of recovery. I'm not saying rest isn't important and that we shouldn't run them to the ground everyday, but I can't help but think that the only way to get fast is to sprint a lot. The only way to get strong, is to lift a lot. I think the practice restrictions we have now keep that from happening anyway.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 27, 2023 18:09:01 GMT -6
Your coaching place sounds interesting... There's a grass area by the parking lot where kids hang out and wait to get picked up. Inevitably, there's always some kind of grab assery, tag type of game. Other times, I've seen kids go from football practice to playing a pick up basketball game on the blacktop courts near the locker room. The point is they have a high level of recovery. I'm not saying rest isn't important and that we shouldn't run them to the ground everyday, but I can't help but think that the only way to get fast is to sprint a lot. The only way to get strong, is to lift a lot. I think the practice restrictions we have now keep that from happening anyway. I think you need to read what you wrote again.
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 27, 2023 20:06:42 GMT -6
Stewartville (MN) ran away with the class 3A title here on Saturday and they are a FTC program.
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