|
Post by morris on Jun 5, 2020 20:00:06 GMT -6
Before I resigned as Head Coach, I did a ton of research on this and actually had practice plans to go with it. However, you have to make room for modifications in there. We were a small school with 23-25 on varsity roster which is alot of why we went to it. We didnt have big kids so we felt we might as well train for speed. But it lacked a strength compeonent. Like anything it has its pros and cons. Not a big Tony Holler fan but Dan Casey, Brad Dixon, and a couple of coaches on here were extremely helpful and made it more "realistic" to adapt for me. Feed the Cats sponsored by Carol Baskins Why do you feel it lacks a strength component? I’m asking because of how much research you’ve done and to make sure I understand.
|
|
|
Post by **** on Jun 5, 2020 20:26:42 GMT -6
Before I resigned as Head Coach, I did a ton of research on this and actually had practice plans to go with it. However, you have to make room for modifications in there. We were a small school with 23-25 on varsity roster which is alot of why we went to it. We didnt have big kids so we felt we might as well train for speed. But it lacked a strength compeonent. Like anything it has its pros and cons. Not a big Tony Holler fan but Dan Casey, Brad Dixon, and a couple of coaches on here were extremely helpful and made it more "realistic" to adapt for me. Feed the Cats sponsored by Carol Baskins Why do you feel it lacks a strength component? I’m asking because of how much research you’ve done and to make sure I understand. FTC is all about speed. From what I know Holler is willing to sacrifice lifting lower body due to the recovery time that is required to get back to 100%. Thus it’s eating up days that could be used on sprint work. Now he’s not saying never lift, he knows lifting helps kids get stronger etc which helps get faster. But he’s saying at some point it comes down to do you want to be fast or strong? And if you’re focusing on speed you can’t be breaking kids bodies down in the weight room like a traditional strength coach does.
|
|
|
Post by morris on Jun 5, 2020 20:54:30 GMT -6
I know a lot of FTC guys are big on hex bar deadlift and similar stuff with a hex bar. They aren’t big squat guys. They appear to be more into jumps and things of that nature for the lower body. The upper body they don’t appear to care what you do. I don’t feel like they talk much about lifting past don’t hurt the next day approach.
|
|
|
Post by **** on Jun 5, 2020 21:22:18 GMT -6
I know a lot of FTC guys are big on hex bar deadlift and similar stuff with a hex bar. They aren’t big squat guys. They appear to be more into jumps and things of that nature for the lower body. The upper body they don’t appear to care what you do. I don’t feel like they talk much about lifting past don’t hurt the next day approach. That is the entire philosophy of the program. Do not let today ruin tomorrow. Which by that they mean... Do not let non sprint days ruin sprint days (Days that you are actually working to get faster and improve top end speed.) Which again, speed is 100% priority of the program. Everything else comes in second or will fall into place. Does it make you faster? Yes, do it. No, don't do it. It's all about pareto principle.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jun 6, 2020 5:07:01 GMT -6
Why do you feel it lacks a strength component? I’m asking because of how much research you’ve done and to make sure I understand. FTC is all about speed. From what I know Holler is willing to sacrifice lifting lower body due to the recovery time that is required to get back to 100%. Thus it’s eating up days that could be used on sprint work. Now he’s not saying never lift, he knows lifting helps kids get stronger etc which helps get faster. But he’s saying at some point it comes down to do you want to be fast or strong? And if you’re focusing on speed you can’t be breaking kids bodies down in the weight room like a traditional strength coach does. I have never heard Tony Holler say or write ANYTHING positive about lifting in regards to speed. In fact, he has said and written, on several occasions, that lifting weights DOES NOT make kids faster.
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jun 6, 2020 6:23:19 GMT -6
I know a lot of FTC guys are big on hex bar deadlift and similar stuff with a hex bar. They aren’t big squat guys. They appear to be more into jumps and things of that nature for the lower body. The upper body they don’t appear to care what you do. I don’t feel like they talk much about lifting past don’t hurt the next day approach. That is the entire philosophy of the program. Do not let today ruin tomorrow. Which by that they mean... Do not let non sprint days ruin sprint days (Days that you are actually working to get faster and improve top end speed.) Which again, speed is 100% priority of the program. Everything else comes in second or will fall into place. Does it make you faster? Yes, do it. No, don't do it. It's all about pareto principle. I feel faster naked...
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jun 6, 2020 6:24:50 GMT -6
FTC is all about speed. From what I know Holler is willing to sacrifice lifting lower body due to the recovery time that is required to get back to 100%. Thus it’s eating up days that could be used on sprint work. Now he’s not saying never lift, he knows lifting helps kids get stronger etc which helps get faster. But he’s saying at some point it comes down to do you want to be fast or strong? And if you’re focusing on speed you can’t be breaking kids bodies down in the weight room like a traditional strength coach does. I have never heard Tony Holler say or write ANYTHING positive about lifting in regards to speed. In fact, he has said and written, on several occasions, that lifting weights DOES NOT make kids faster. The entire program is based on the concept of not running kids off because they have to work hard. Says it right in the background of why he started the program. Basically, make it easier than anything else, let all the talented lazy kids come out and just let them run.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jun 6, 2020 6:33:24 GMT -6
I have never heard Tony Holler say or write ANYTHING positive about lifting in regards to speed. In fact, he has said and written, on several occasions, that lifting weights DOES NOT make kids faster. That statement alone would make me skeptical about anything he had to say regarding training football players.
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jun 6, 2020 6:57:09 GMT -6
I have never heard Tony Holler say or write ANYTHING positive about lifting in regards to speed. In fact, he has said and written, on several occasions, that lifting weights DOES NOT make kids faster. The entire program is based on the concept of not running kids off because they have to work hard. Says it right in the background of why he started the program. Basically, make it easier than anything else, let all the talented lazy kids come out and just let them run. trackfootballconsortium.com/the-origin-and-philosophical-basis-of-feed-the-cats/My favorite line from the entire article- "Cats may appear lazy to slow white guys but I’ve learned that cats are freaky competitive." So, if you disagree it's because you're a slow white guy?
|
|
|
Post by morris on Jun 6, 2020 7:02:17 GMT -6
I believe I’ve heard Holler and others talk about Carl Deitz and Triphasic Training as kind of the model of lifting they prefer. I would also think the 1x20 approach would fit. You see discussions all the time and the relationship between strength and speed.
Is FTC the best method or the best method for your (your being general here) that’s up to you. Like many have said a lot of us already do many of the ideas. I see it like a lot of other programs with strength and conditioning. There are a bunch of methods out there that will get you very good results as long as you or your players don’t do anything stupid.
One thing that was mentioned in a clinic they did recently was about timing the kids on Mondays. They also used the information to monitor their players. So if a kid comes in and is running slower than normal they take it as the kid needs more time to recover during the week to be ready on Friday. I think a lot of us use the eye test for stuff like that and some guys don’t even look/think about it.
|
|
|
Post by **** on Jun 6, 2020 7:49:16 GMT -6
Now I remember why I stopped posting on here
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jun 6, 2020 9:25:05 GMT -6
FTC is all about speed. From what I know Holler is willing to sacrifice lifting lower body due to the recovery time that is required to get back to 100%. Thus it’s eating up days that could be used on sprint work. Now he’s not saying never lift, he knows lifting helps kids get stronger etc which helps get faster. But he’s saying at some point it comes down to do you want to be fast or strong? And if you’re focusing on speed you can’t be breaking kids bodies down in the weight room like a traditional strength coach does. I have never heard Tony Holler say or write ANYTHING positive about lifting in regards to speed. In fact, he has said and written, on several occasions, that lifting weights DOES NOT make kids faster. Actually, I should clarify this remark. I don't think Holler is necessarily anti-lifting as much as he disagrees with the idea that being lean and strong is the foundation of speed. I replied to one of his Twitter posts last year saying that I have had athletes who would lift but not run or jump all winter and still improved their 40 times and VJs by the spring. His response was essentially that I was mistaken because it is impossible to get faster without sprinting.
|
|
|
Post by 60zgo on Jun 6, 2020 10:55:46 GMT -6
Now I remember why I stopped posting on here Yeah. Huey has kinda jumped the shark. It's all about the DM now.
|
|
|
Post by kylem56 on Jun 6, 2020 11:14:40 GMT -6
Summarizing all my research -It has some great principles that can be applied easily to any program -I think it still has to be modified to FIT YOU, my program isnt going to be Camp Point Central HS in Illinois but for the demographics we had (one of the physically smallest teams in the league with rosters of 23-25 kids) I felt that it fit us -To be honest, I watched the clinics and read the articles by Holler but I was more interested in hearing what Brad Dixon, Dan Casey, silkyice on here, and other coaches who have implemented parts or all of most of his methods tried and true -Its not so much that there is discouragement of lifting, but one of the coaches even stated that majority of his players do their lifting in school and they don't max out, they don't do X & Z, which is fine, to each his own. I don't claim to be a S&C expert but I have a friend who is a Head NFL strength coach and I have worked with some really good coaches who are good strength coaches and each of them has their own philosophies towards everything. Personally my plan was to use the speed training/volume aspects of FTC and tie it into our practice plans and also utilize Jim Wendler's 5-3-1 program. For anyone on here getting offended by the responses you get by asking about this, sorry but thats coaching. You are going to get criticized, questioned (Which I think is a good thing), and the fact that Holler alienates alot of people by the way he talks, you're going to get some "virtual eye rolling". As far as the RPR, which is a small component of all this, I attended the Level 1 "certification" myself and I personally have noticed the benefits. But I am 33 years old, 2 back surgeries and out of eligibility. Does it help healthy high school student-athletes already in shape? I think so but In between my time of off-season workouts, resigning, and accepting a new position, I can't sit here and type that I have enough data to validate that claim. With RPR, I relied on those I know in the S&C world who are experts on the body and every single one of them felt it has merits but since they didn't use it themselves, I have several of the clinic videos that I learned from, and theres 3-4 coaches on here that were a great resource for me as well. When I was at my previous school I also met with the head track coach, and one of our science faculty members who I greatly respect to try to understand it more from a scientific point of view cause thats just not my background. Knowing who some of the coaches on here and the success they have had, the whole "sprint based practice planning" approach must not be a complete snake oil sale but the key is to know enough about it to adapt and modify it to you and your program. If anyone wants the notes I gathered feel free to IM me and I will send them to you. here is a copy of the sample practice plans I put together "slowly transitioning" to this philosophy: docs.google.com/document/d/1XoriPgdLYQzoJOUwpAEUCF_-uJNEgQMC_WYohQWCK2U/edit?usp=sharingI think really each individual program is going to look different if you go all in with this approach just based on the logistics of your day.
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jun 6, 2020 12:49:23 GMT -6
Don’t over think this. Wendler said it best “don’t beat the sh!t out of your kids Monday through Thursday and expect them to be any good on Friday.”
Pretty much sums it up for me.
|
|
|
Post by **** on Jun 6, 2020 15:50:05 GMT -6
Don’t over think this. Wendler said it best “don’t beat the sh!t out of your kids Monday through Thursday and expect them to be any good on Friday.” Pretty much sums it up for me. This is FTC philosophy
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jun 6, 2020 19:20:55 GMT -6
Don’t over think this. Wendler said it best “don’t beat the sh!t out of your kids Monday through Thursday and expect them to be any good on Friday.” Pretty much sums it up for me. This is FTC philosophy I’ve found the biggest meat heads are the ones who hate the FTC stuff. If you argue with Wendler are you truly a meat head anymore? In all seriousness though Wendler doesn’t have his kids barbell squat in season so there is probably something to this thing. I’m not completely on board with everything Holler is about because he really isn’t a dedicated football coach and kinda talks out of his a$$ about football coaching in my opinion. However, he makes a lot of good points and has made me rethink all my drills and practice structure
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jun 6, 2020 19:46:57 GMT -6
I’ve found the biggest meat heads are the ones who hate the FTC stuff. If you argue with Wendler are you truly a meat head anymore? In all seriousness though Wendler doesn’t have his kids barbell squat in season so there is probably something to this thing. I’m not completely on board with everything Holler is about because he really isn’t a dedicated football coach and kinda talks out of his a$$ about football coaching in my opinion. However, he makes a lot of good points and has made me rethink all my drills and practice structure I don't hate the ideas, I hate the people who worship it as a religion and walk around smelling their own farts.
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jun 7, 2020 4:33:51 GMT -6
I’ve found the biggest meat heads are the ones who hate the FTC stuff. If you argue with Wendler are you truly a meat head anymore? In all seriousness though Wendler doesn’t have his kids barbell squat in season so there is probably something to this thing. I’m not completely on board with everything Holler is about because he really isn’t a dedicated football coach and kinda talks out of his a$$ about football coaching in my opinion. However, he makes a lot of good points and has made me rethink all my drills and practice structure I don't hate the ideas, I hate the people who worship it as a religion and walk around smelling their own farts. LOL! Fair enough. I wasn't talking specifically about you or anyone in particular. Holler is like anyone else that has a contrarian approach though. You have to take what the message is and try and apply it in a way that you believe can help and not worry about all his other bull$hit. He has probably had to defend his way of doing things so much in the past that he takes a defensive approach and it eventually became just bashing other coaches for the way they do things
|
|
|
Post by utchuckd on Jun 7, 2020 5:45:34 GMT -6
He has probably had to defend his way of doing things so much in the past that he takes a defensive approach and it eventually became just bashing other coaches for the way they do things It's also a bit of salesmanship, setting up some straw men and knocking them down to make your point.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jun 7, 2020 5:55:42 GMT -6
Don’t over think this. Wendler said it best “don’t beat the sh!t out of your kids Monday through Thursday and expect them to be any good on Friday.” Pretty much sums it up for me. This is FTC philosophy It's just good sound coaching philosophy. Not peculiar to FTC adherents.
|
|
|
Post by **** on Jun 7, 2020 8:10:57 GMT -6
I would argue conventional football wisdom says you should practice hard so games are easy.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jun 7, 2020 8:27:07 GMT -6
I would argue conventional football wisdom says you should practice hard so games are easy. True but you don't need to practice "hard" every day, especially with recent rules limiting full pads-contact.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jun 7, 2020 8:50:46 GMT -6
I would argue conventional football wisdom says you should practice hard so games are easy. Yes. I agree with this. I think the BEST thing the FTC philosophy has done is to question the grinder approach and show that you DON'T need long, grueling practices and weekend coaches meetings to be competitive.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jun 7, 2020 8:56:18 GMT -6
"Conventional football wisdom" also said at one time giving players water during practice-competition made them "soft."
|
|
|
Post by 60zgo on Jun 7, 2020 9:13:36 GMT -6
"Conventional football wisdom" also said at one time giving players water during practice-competition made them "soft." And I think this is still true and why a ton of people are turned off by Holler. There are a ton of coaches out there that wish football could be a "paramilitary boot camp" where they make kids tougher. See evidence on this board all the time, college coaches, social media, etc. There is a real visceral conflict there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 9:59:49 GMT -6
"Conventional football wisdom" also said at one time giving players water during practice-competition made them "soft." Football has become soft, but not because we now give them water. But because the adults in the room now want to feel the love. Consequences are now nearly illegal.
|
|
|
Post by 60zgo on Jun 7, 2020 11:01:17 GMT -6
"Conventional football wisdom" also said at one time giving players water during practice-competition made them "soft." Football has become soft, but not because we now give them water. But because the adults in the room now want to feel the love. Consequences are now nearly illegal. Football is safer not softer. I ask kids to do way more than we were asked to do in the 80's and 90's. It's not even close.
|
|
|
Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 7, 2020 11:07:36 GMT -6
I'm not informed on FTC other than some stuff I've read on here, so there's a chance I'm talking out of my @$$ here. But I chalk it up as one of those things where "there's more than one way to skin a cat."
I have a hard time believing that Holler is utterly anti-lifting, but I may be wrong on that. If he is in fact opposed to it, then that would be part of the program that I couldn't get behind because based on years of experience I think the weight room is the single biggest factor in our yearly success.
The other stuff, like not running guys into the ground just for the sake of doing it is obviously good advice that isn't exclusive to FTC believers. The rest of it is just logistics to me, you look at the amount of practice time you have in a week/season, you decide what your priorities are, and you allocate your practice time accordingly.
Somebody mentioned a straw man earlier, and there's definitely some of that going on. Lifting in season doesn't have to mean you also have marathon practices and beat the crap out of your team all year long, etc. there's all kinds of degrees in between the two extremes for successful programs to operate.
|
|
|
Post by mariner42 on Jun 7, 2020 11:26:33 GMT -6
Don’t over think this. Wendler said it best “don’t beat the sh!t out of your kids Monday through Thursday and expect them to be any good on Friday.” Pretty much sums it up for me. I know you've already done this, but for anyone who hasn't: look deeply into how Wendler is training his HS football players, it'll really make you question things. It's very FTC and they are, by Wendler's (deeply) biased account, the embodiment of caveman football between the whistles.
|
|