|
|
Post by badtotheflexbone on Apr 2, 2020 9:54:09 GMT -6
Love to hear your thoughts. I know more offense than defense but relatively none compared to most of you experts here. Defense is reactionary in nature. You have to align based on how offense aligns. Defense reacts on offensive keys. Defense may see a different type of offense every week. Same could be said for Offense but Offense could align in their same sets every week and be fine. Offense sets the puzzle, defense has to "solve" the puzzle Teaching kids offense is like teaching kids PE. Teaching kids defense is like teaching them math?  |
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Apr 2, 2020 10:00:24 GMT -6
I was a coordinator of both at various times. DC first for 4 years, HC/OC for 7 and HC/DC for 1. Defense is much harder IMO.
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Apr 2, 2020 11:20:41 GMT -6
Kids have to learn how to play team defense, not just their own position. They don't need to know a helluva lot about other positions but they need to know that "You need to do this because the LB is doing that".
On offense you can be OK just knowing your position for the most part (QB is an exception). I coached OL in the same system for 29 years and still have no idea what the WR's do. Don't bother asking me about anything outside of the C gap.
|
|
|
|
Post by s73 on Apr 2, 2020 11:25:53 GMT -6
I voted defense. With that said, I always felt defense was tougher to prep M - TH but offense is more difficult on Fridays.
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Apr 2, 2020 11:34:20 GMT -6
I voted defense. With that said, I always felt defense was tougher to prep M - TH but offense is more difficult on Fridays. Absolutely. I can't go wrong calling base defense. In fact I train my guys to do that in case, for some reason, I can't get the call in. |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Apr 2, 2020 12:01:19 GMT -6
I voted defense. As others have pointed out, a defender needs to know much more conceptually about the defensive construct than an offensive player needs to know about the offense. And, playing defense requires the kids to read and react to what the offense is doing and then apply the fundamental skills being taught. Basically each defender needs to use some of the same reading/reaction skills as an option QB.
|
|
|
|
Post by badtotheflexbone on Apr 2, 2020 12:03:24 GMT -6
I voted defense. With that said, I always felt defense was tougher to prep M - TH but offense is more difficult on Fridays. Absolutely. I can't go wrong calling base defense. In fact I train my guys to do that in case, for some reason, I can't get the call in. That's sorta why I asked the question... How do you signal something in as a DC when you don't even know what the offense is going to line up in? Say you worked a specific blitz or w/e and the offense aligns up in something unexpected, then the ball is already snapped etc. How do you guys work around this? |
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Apr 2, 2020 12:48:46 GMT -6
Absolutely. I can't go wrong calling base defense. In fact I train my guys to do that in case, for some reason, I can't get the call in. That's sorta why I asked the question... How do you signal something in as a DC when you don't even know what the offense is going to line up in? Say you worked a specific blitz or w/e and the offense aligns up in something unexpected, then the ball is already snapped etc. How do you guys work around this? That goes back to what s73 said, that coaching defense happens during the week and before. You have to have the adjustments coached up beforehand and when in doubt check "Base". |
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Apr 2, 2020 12:55:38 GMT -6
I voted defense. With that said, I always felt defense was tougher to prep M - TH but offense is more difficult on Fridays. Absolutely. I can't go wrong calling base defense. In fact I train my guys to do that in case, for some reason, I can't get the call in. Offensively, I could say the same for wedge (fb dive) or iso for us. |
|
|
|
Post by realdawg on Apr 2, 2020 12:56:13 GMT -6
Defense for sure. As mentioned, you have to adjust to every formation you see. It doesnt matter what you signal in, they have to adjust it on the field to the formation. The more formations you see the harder it gets and the less calls you can have. One team we played we charted 46 formations in either 2 or 3 films. No way you could practice all those. On offense you probably prepare for 2 or maybe 3 fronts and 2 maybe 3 coverages in comparison.
|
|
|
|
Post by 44dlcoach on Apr 2, 2020 13:21:34 GMT -6
I'll absolutely agree that Sunday through Thursday its defense and Friday its probably offense. I've never offensive coordinated but after every game I hear those guys talking about all these adjustments they made and play calls and on the defensive side we just called base 90% of the time.
|
|
|
|
Post by badtotheflexbone on Apr 2, 2020 13:48:48 GMT -6
Can someone elaborate why offense is harder on Fridays? Technically, haven't you been preparing Offense all week as well
|
|
|
|
Post by bluboy on Apr 2, 2020 15:38:25 GMT -6
"... you have to adjust to every formation you see. It doesn't matter what you signal in, they have to adjust it on the field to the formation. The more formations you see the harder it gets and the less calls you can have..."
I agree 100%. Defense has to prepare for everything seen on film (not to mention shifts, trades, motion) PLUS be able to adjust to any trick/crazy formation that they haven't shown on film.
|
|
|
|
Post by badtotheflexbone on Apr 2, 2020 15:42:56 GMT -6
"... you have to adjust to every formation you see. It doesn't matter what you signal in, they have to adjust it on the field to the formation. The more formations you see the harder it gets and the less calls you can have..." I agree 100%. Defense has to prepare for everything seen on film (not to mention shifts, trades, motion) PLUS be able to adjust to any trick/crazy formation that they haven't shown on film. How do you as DC filter out what is "window dressing", what may leave you vulnerable in certain areas to run or pass, and then in addition, try to teach that to the kids? Then on game day, do that in real time?? That has to be CHALLENGING |
|
|
|
Post by bluboy on Apr 2, 2020 16:09:22 GMT -6
We focus on defending the 5 most used formations based on # of times used. If formations 6, 7 and 8 are used a few times less than the top 5, we will show them to the defense at the end of team on Wednesday, as well as what to call and how to align. For the most part, we will probably be in Base vs these formations and/or run a simple stunt.
I believe that "you can't put a tarp over the entire ocean." So we focus on what an opponent does the most. If the opponent does something different, then he is not doing what he does best.
|
|
|
|
Post by 44dlcoach on Apr 2, 2020 16:57:31 GMT -6
There are certain things we practice defensively every week whether the opponent has shown them or not. Nothing too crazy, but we are going to see a few plays of empty and a few plays with motion every week in practice no matter what.
|
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Apr 2, 2020 17:05:16 GMT -6
Can someone elaborate why offense is harder on Fridays? Technically, haven't you been preparing Offense all week as well Especially if all these guys do is stay in base defense. Defensively we always seemed to run into people who would drastically change their offense the week we played them. Like from spread to foot to foot DW. If we ever saw them one weird play out of 175, that one play would be their whole offense the next week. If they had a kid that only had 20 carries for 40yds all season and I said we didn't need to worry about him, he'd go off for 100+ against us. It was really odd. |
|
|
|
Post by 44dlcoach on Apr 2, 2020 17:36:48 GMT -6
Can someone elaborate why offense is harder on Fridays? Technically, haven't you been preparing Offense all week as well Especially if all these guys do is stay in base defense. Defensively we always seemed to run into people who would drastically change their offense the week we played them. Like from spread to foot to foot DW. If we ever saw them one weird play out of 175, that one play would be their whole offense the next week. If they had a kid that only had 20 carries for 40yds all season and I said we didn't need to worry about him, he'd go off for 100+ against us. It was really odd. We get a lot of that kind of stuff too, not sure why, but mostly from bad teams. I don't know if they think their "normal" stuff won't beat us or what, but the "new" stuff rarely works for more than about 2 series once the surprise factor goes away. |
|
|
|
Post by bluboy on Apr 2, 2020 17:44:09 GMT -6
Defensively we always seemed to run into people who would drastically change their offense the week we played them."
We get the same thing. Agree with 44dlcoach in that is might work for a series or 2.
|
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Apr 2, 2020 18:00:35 GMT -6
Especially if all these guys do is stay in base defense. Defensively we always seemed to run into people who would drastically change their offense the week we played them. Like from spread to foot to foot DW. If we ever saw them one weird play out of 175, that one play would be their whole offense the next week. If they had a kid that only had 20 carries for 40yds all season and I said we didn't need to worry about him, he'd go off for 100+ against us. It was really odd. We get a lot of that kind of stuff too, not sure why, but mostly from bad teams. I don't know if they think their "normal" stuff won't beat us or what, but the "new" stuff rarely works for more than about 2 series once the surprise factor goes away. We would get good teams that did it. It was weird. It was really weird when we'd watch film and they'd run that ONE play out of 200 and I'd say "Man, I'm glad they don't do that more often. That would give us fits." That next Friday they'd run it 20 times. Once lost a game because a kid hit a 42 yard field goal with .1 second left to beat us by one. Why only 1 point? Because he'd went 0-3 on extra points. He never even attempted another field goal in his entire life. |
|
|
|
Post by 44dlcoach on Apr 2, 2020 18:04:37 GMT -6
We lost a weird game one time that included the other team lining up for a FG and throwing a first down pass to their center. That team also went "weird offense of the week" in that game, it's the only time I can remember losing a game when the team had dramatically changed their style.
And the guy that coached the other team changed his whole system to that "weird offense" for the next 3 years or so, and it cost him at least one game a year that his team should have won easily. But I've derailed the thread at this point.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Apr 2, 2020 19:42:51 GMT -6
"... you have to adjust to every formation you see. It doesn't matter what you signal in, they have to adjust it on the field to the formation. The more formations you see the harder it gets and the less calls you can have..." I agree 100%. Defense has to prepare for everything seen on film (not to mention shifts, trades, motion) PLUS be able to adjust to any trick/crazy formation that they haven't shown on film. How do you as DC filter out what is "window dressing", what may leave you vulnerable in certain areas to run or pass, and then in addition, try to teach that to the kids? Then on game day, do that in real time?? That has to be CHALLENGING
1. We keep our defense pretty vanilla as is; C3, 3 Under/3 Deep C1, C0/Robber, Over/Under fronts, tackle over adjustment, empty adjustment, and a limited stunt/twist package. And, we look to stay in our base as much as possible. If a team is throwing a ton of formations at us, we're going to play as much C3 and 3 Under/3 Deep as possible.
2. We separate our front from our secondary; our LBs/DL have their checks and our secondary has theirs'. A team might throw a dozen variations of a tackle over formation at us but our front is has one adjustment and our secondary has a maximum of three checks. Chances are they'll only use two.
3. Our checks are designed to "play the numbers"; we're have a 1:1 ratio of defenders to offensive players on each side of the center as much as possible.. In fact, I can only think of one call that leaves us out-numbered on one side of the ball. It doesn't take many checks to make sure you have as many guys on one side of the formation as they do.
4. As a DC, I accept that a team that knows how to use their window dressing is going to catch us here and there. They just can't catch us for big gains/scores. A "spread team" came out in an UC 32 personnel tackle-over formation and pounded away at us. We knew our checks for a heavy tackle-over set but we hadn't repped it all week and it caught us off guard. We blew a time out, got adjusted the way we needed to be and limited the damage. They marched it on us for a few drives but didn't score.
5. And, sometimes, on-the-fly adjustments are necessary. "Dangit guys, we're flying up field and not playing our BD/SD rules for chit! Bobby (5 tech), Johnny(3 tech), you two are running your Sammy blitz slants until I tell you other wise. Ricky (Sam) you're not coming off of the edge; just clean up whatever Harry and Lloyd send your way...Bobby (Mike) be ready to run; we're taking away Power so they're going to run Jet at us."
|
|
|
|
Post by canesfan on Apr 2, 2020 20:30:00 GMT -6
Before we went super simple defensively I would have said defense. Now, definitely offense.
|
|
|
|
Post by carookie on Apr 2, 2020 22:03:44 GMT -6
I'm not doing this to be a contrarian, just being real. Special teams is a PAIN to coach at the HS level.
-There is little consistency and carry over: some things are in wide open spaces (KO) others are bunched up (FG/PAT).
-Its the complex reactionary stuff that all complained about with defense, but with even more wackiness and it often flip-flops. The team that had the ball initially in Punt and got to control where everyone lined up, they have to soon be the one reacting to the other team with the ball.
-You get the biggest talent mismatches: the other team is still keeping their stud D1 athlete back there to return the punt, but you are asked to stop him with a group made up of primarily backups.
-More random rules to deal with that don't fit within the other parts of the game
-Less coaching time throughout the week/season. Generally disregarded by a lot of people
I'm sure there are others, but coaching STs isnt that easy
|
|
|
|
Post by 44dlcoach on Apr 2, 2020 22:24:34 GMT -6
We stopped having a ST coordinator a long time ago. Each special team has its own "primary" coordinator and basically one other coach who helps with it.
Like our DB coach does kickoff, WR coach does KOR, OL coach does PAT, etc.
It's worked well for us, though as DC I'm trying to scam my way into not having a special teams responsibily next year.
I've been handling punt for years, if I still have a responsibility next year it will be punt return because logistically it's a lot easier to manage during the game.
|
|
|
|
Post by canesfan on Apr 3, 2020 8:48:15 GMT -6
I'm not doing this to be a contrarian, just being real. Special teams is a PAIN to coach at the HS level. -There is little consistency and carry over: some things are in wide open spaces (KO) others are bunched up (FG/PAT). -Its the complex reactionary stuff that all complained about with defense, but with even more wackiness and it often flip-flops. The team that had the ball initially in Punt and got to control where everyone lined up, they have to soon be the one reacting to the other team with the ball. -You get the biggest talent mismatches: the other team is still keeping their stud D1 athlete back there to return the punt, but you are asked to stop him with a group made up of primarily backups. -More random rules to deal with that don't fit within the other parts of the game -Less coaching time throughout the week/season. Generally disregarded by a lot of people I'm sure there are others, but coaching STs isnt that easy Truth. Being a STC is a hard job. Easiest way to lose a close game is special teams. Very hard to coach. |
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Apr 3, 2020 9:36:50 GMT -6
I'm not doing this to be a contrarian, just being real. Special teams is a PAIN to coach at the HS level. -There is little consistency and carry over: some things are in wide open spaces (KO) others are bunched up (FG/PAT). -Its the complex reactionary stuff that all complained about with defense, but with even more wackiness and it often flip-flops. The team that had the ball initially in Punt and got to control where everyone lined up, they have to soon be the one reacting to the other team with the ball. -You get the biggest talent mismatches: the other team is still keeping their stud D1 athlete back there to return the punt, but you are asked to stop him with a group made up of primarily backups. -More random rules to deal with that don't fit within the other parts of the game -Less coaching time throughout the week/season. Generally disregarded by a lot of people I'm sure there are others, but coaching STs isnt that easy I agree here. I didn't want to get philosophical or break down the thread by semantics, but when reading the first post I thought "well, doesn't that depend on what "harder" means?". There are all of the things you mentioned, with the added difficulty of the very specific skills (punting, kicking, deep snapping) that I would wager few coaches know much about. |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Apr 3, 2020 10:01:54 GMT -6
Yup... Special teams can be a PITA. Especially because it doesn't seem like any amount of time we put towards them is enough.A team in our division runs wall returns well; on KOR and PR. On punt and KO, we started preparing to defend wall returns in August; dedicated about 20 minutes per week to recognizing the wall, disrupting it, getting defenders behind it, etc..etc.. The week we played them, we had four, fifteen minute periods set aside to defend those walls. We still gave up a score on PR.
|
|
|
|
Post by bluboy on Apr 3, 2020 12:54:12 GMT -6
We spend 15-20 minutes a day on two aspects of special teams Monday and Tuesday. Most of this time is spent on individual skills. Wednesday is the day we spend more time on the team aspect.
|
|
|
|
Post by cpcollet on Apr 3, 2020 20:21:35 GMT -6
Definitely Defense IMO.
|
|
