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Post by tripsclosed on Feb 29, 2020 1:53:30 GMT -6
So, I was thinking on something earlier, and I'd be curious to hear thoughts, and if applicable, experiences, with what I am about to talk about.
Several coaches who have won a lot, for example John Wooden, Nick Saban, etc, have used such approaches as "Don't look at the scoreboard", "The score will take care itself", "Success is doing the best you are capable of doing", etc.
Now, just so it is clear, I do not want to suggest that these are bad approaches. I think they are certainly better than the traditional winning-is-everything, Lombardi-esque approach. I am however thinking that there might be a still better approach.
It's a fairly simple idea, really. The idea is this: Forget talking about winning, forget talking about not focusing on the scoreboard, forget talking about success, instead simply ask your players to do the best that they can do, regardless of whether it's getting better at something, performance during a practice, performance during a game, etc.
The thinking here is that this sets this up as being about the player trying to do their best. This is opposed to setting up something as being about winning, or about succeeding. The potential problem I see with setting something up as being about winning, or about succeeding, even if a coach's definition of success isn't winning championships, ala John Wooden, is that the downside of winning is losing, and the downside of success is failure. Losing and failure are negative, unpleasant, undesirable, wanted to be avoided, and can make players worry and/or feel pressured, which can lead to mistakes.
Also, when you say "Don't look at the scoreboard", or "Don't worry about the score", you are still calling attention to the object or subject you don't want them to look at or worry about because of the words you are using. It's kind of like the classic "White Rabbit" idea. If you want people to stop thinking about something, talking about something, focusing on something, or worrying about something, then don't mention it. If you want something not to not be thought about, talked about, focused on, or worried about, then one of the worst things you can do is say "Don't think about/talk about/focus on/worry about X."
To me, the approach I am suggesting here is much more positive, and puts much less pressure on the individual, which hypothetically should free them up to just go out and do their thing the best they can.
A quick note to acknowledge a potential objection I can see to this:
Yes, some players actually thrive off of presssure, and from a coaching perspective, it makes sense to tailor your motivational tactics to each individual rather than having a one size fits all approach. That said, I think maybe you can make what I talked about above the approach for your program/culture overall, especially when dealing with the team as a group, and then on an individual level, with players who thrive on pressure, you can find ways to challenge them, put pressure on them, etc.
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Post by bluboy on Feb 29, 2020 7:46:02 GMT -6
We never talk about winning. We always talk about competing, playing hard, never giving up, and playing together. We believe that if our players do all of those things, we have a very good chance of being successful. We also tell them that we might do all those things and we might not be successful because the other team is simply better than we are.
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Post by Coach.A on Feb 29, 2020 10:35:55 GMT -6
A few thoughts:
- The scoreboard is important because things like: the score, down & distance, time remaining, number of time outs remaining, etc. can heavily dictate strategy and even technique. I understand that when you say "ignore the scoreboard" you mean it figuratively but I don't think you can hide the reality of a game situation from players.
- I still think you need to enforce the importance of focus, effort and compete level regardless of game situation. I feel that teaching the true value of these traits is a better approach.
- As for pressure, we take the approach of trying to teach ALL players how to cope with pressure situations. I think it's a mistake to shield kids from pressure situations or to have them pretend a pressure situation isn't an actual pressure situation. There are all kinds of sports psychology strategies to help players perform in these situations. - Our approach to handling pressure is to flip their mindset to "Pressure is a Gift". How many times have they pretended to hit a last second shot when playing basketball in their driveway? How many times have they pretended to be QB or Rec on the final play of a game? We fantasize about being in these situations and admire people who perform in these situations....it's a gift to actually have an opportunity to compete in these high pressure situations! "No pressure, no Diamonds!"
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Post by tripsclosed on Feb 29, 2020 14:08:06 GMT -6
A few thoughts: - The scoreboard is important because things like: the score, down & distance, time remaining, number of time outs remaining, etc. can heavily dictate strategy and even technique. I understand that when you say "ignore the scoreboard" you mean it figuratively but I don't think you can hide the reality of a game situation from players. Agreed. And, I think the main idea behind what Wooden, Saban, etc had in mind was focusing on doing your job to the best of your ability. Maybe we can meet in the middle and say that these will be part of "doing the best you can"? Do the best you can to focus, do the best you can to put forth effort, do the best you can to compete. Teaching how compete/be competitive is definitely important, because if one of your end goals is winning the game even if you don't focus on that, then games are built around lots of "micro-competitions" that sum up to make the entire competitive effort of the team. And, on an individual level like that, I think it can work to teach them to compete. And hey, if you think about this, too, it's like how US special forces operators are trained to and then operate by breaking everything into pieces and then taking on those pieces in succession. One Navy SEAL has said that when he went through BUDS, one of the instructors told him to first make it out of bed in the morning and make their bed, a small win. Then focus on making it to breakfast and make it through that. Then make it to lunch, and so on and so forth. The application here for sports would be focus on each drill rep, each practice rep, each play during a game. Don't put the entire fate of a game and or the season on a player. Of course it's a team effort, and they are all in it together, I don't think you can pretend it isn't there, because it is there, just don't call any attention to it. Again, maybe we can meet in the middle, and say teach them how to deal with pressure, because it is going to be there regardless of what you might try to avoid saying, but then still overall avoid talking about winning, success, etc, and just ask them to do the best they can.
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Post by huddlehut on Feb 29, 2020 14:57:29 GMT -6
As an aside... Coaches are always looking for a curriculum for "building a culture", which is a goofy thing in my opinion, but John Wooden's "Pyramid of Success" provides a program with all the curriculum it could ever need to teach kids how to be better people.
...and don't try convince me on the "building a culture" jibber jabber. Just be a coach... that should be enough. Don't want to hear about Twitter, either.
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Post by aceback76 on Feb 29, 2020 17:25:05 GMT -6
So, I was thinking on something earlier, and I'd be curious to hear thoughts, and if applicable, experiences, with what I am about to talk about. Several coaches who have won a lot, for example John Wooden, Nick Saban, etc, have used such approaches as "Don't look at the scoreboard", "The score will take care itself", "Success is doing the best you are capable of doing", etc. Now, just so it is clear, I do not want to suggest that these are bad approaches. I think they are certainly better than the traditional winning-is-everything, Lombardi-esque approach. I am however thinking that there might be a still better approach. It's a fairly simple idea, really. The idea is this: Forget talking about winning, forget talking about not focusing on the scoreboard, forget talking about success, instead simply ask your players to do the best that they can do, regardless of whether it's getting better at something, performance during a practice, performance during a game, etc. The thinking here is that this sets this up as being about the player trying to do their best. This is opposed to setting up something as being about winning, or about succeeding. The potential problem I see with setting something up as being about winning, or about succeeding, even if a coach's definition of success isn't winning championships, ala John Wooden, is that the downside of winning is losing, and the downside of success is failure. Losing and failure are negative, unpleasant, undesirable, wanted to be avoided, and can make players worry and/or feel pressured, which can lead to mistakes. Also, when you say "Don't look at the scoreboard", or "Don't worry about the score", you are still calling attention to the object or subject you don't want them to look at or worry about because of the words you are using. It's kind of like the classic "White Rabbit" idea. If you want people to stop thinking about something, talking about something, focusing on something, or worrying about something, then don't mention it. If you want something not to not be thought about, talked about, focused on, or worried about, then one of the worst things you can do is say "Don't think about/talk about/focus on/worry about X." To me, the approach I am suggesting here is much more positive, and puts much less pressure on the individual, which hypothetically should free them up to just go out and do their thing the best they can. A quick note to acknowledge a potential objection I can see to this: Yes, some players actually thrive off of presssure, and from a coaching perspective, it makes sense to tailor your motivational tactics to each individual rather than having a one size fits all approach. That said, I think maybe you can make what I talked about above the approach for your program/culture overall, especially when dealing with the team as a group, and then on an individual level, with players who thrive on pressure, you can find ways to challenge them, put pressure on them, etc. We may not ASK the players to do the "best they can", but we try to get it out of them by fostering a high state of MORALE. Each coach must go about this in their OWN way (what works for some may not work for others): MORALE: I consider this the MOST IMPORTANT of the "4 AREAS IN BUILDING A FOOTBALL TEAM”. You've got to have the MORALE (psychological approach) to just stay in the game and make a reasonable showing. You're not going to get a damned thing out of your kids if you don't control the mind first. You've got to get control of the mind first and the body second. The dictionary definition of what the psychological approach meaning, or what morale is: “THE SCIENCE WHICH TREATS OF THE MIND IN ANY OF IT'S ASPECTS – THE TRAITS, FEELINGS, ACTIONS, AND ATTRIBUTES COLLECTIVELY OF THE MIND”. We discuss these things as a staff. We wanted to know what we could do to improve it. What we could do to control that boy's mind but make sure that we still had him completely on our side, to give everything that we had even though we weren't the equal of our opponents. Here, we felt if we controlled the mind, we could get the maximum out of that kid. How many times have we gone into football games with everything encompassed around COACHING and STRATEGY even though we are aware of this MORALE aspect? It's kind of like falling in love, it's natural (you don't know why it happens, but it does). BUT, I think as a coach you can control it and here are some of the things we discussed. I'm going to list all the things that CAN be problems. Some of these you can control to affect the MORALE on your club. 1. PARTICIPATION: Play as many kids as you can. 2. PHYSICAL CONDITION: Have them in top condition (fatigue makes cowards of us all). 3. ORGANIZATION: Organize and control your ball club for a maximum effort (don't stay on the field too long). 4. LOYALTY: The greatest attribute you can have from your players and coaches. 5. LEADERSHIP: Be SURE to get the right players to be the leaders. 6. TRADITION: Harder to get than it is to keep. 7. ENVIRONMENT: How does the community feel about your program? 8. CONFIDENCE: Believe in what you are doing. 9. ADMINISTRATION: How does the Administration feel about it? 10. SCHEDULE: Tremendous factor! 11. INJURIES: Losing your better players to injuries. 12. EQUIPMENT: The best you can get. 13. OFFICIALS: Some of them think they're not doing a good job if they don't call penalties. 14. ELEMENTS: An equalizer when two teams are unevenly matched. 15. ACADEMIC STANDARDS: 16. CONFERENCE REGULATIONS: 17. LUCK
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Post by canesfan on Feb 29, 2020 22:03:34 GMT -6
We focus on what it takes to win. Obviously goes against what those guys say but we do talk about winning. It is the overall goal of the game. But there are steps to winning that we focus on.
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Post by larrymoe on Mar 1, 2020 15:37:46 GMT -6
Why is putting pressure on someone such a taboo? Life is full of pressure. You either handle it or you don't. Kinda like you either handle it on the field or you don't.
Don't think there's pressure in life? Have two kids and two mortgages and lose your job and get back to me.
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Post by tripsclosed on Mar 2, 2020 2:24:13 GMT -6
Why is putting pressure on someone such a taboo? Life is full of pressure. You either handle it or you don't. Kinda like you either handle it on the field or you don't. Don't think there's pressure in life? Have two kids and two mortgages and lose your job and get back to me. I can't speak for others, but my thinking here with this is some people do well with their coaching staff putting pressure on them to win (hence why I allowed for individual situations where you challenge such people in the OP), while others do not. Why cut yourself short of the players who function well when they can just go out and focus on doing their job? Just throwing numbers around here for the sake of the discussion, but say you have 20 players who have enough ability to consistently see the field. Of those 20, 14 of them can function or thrive with pressure put on them by you and the rest of the staff, while 6 of them do better if they just go out and do their job. Why say "If those 6 can't handle the staff putting pressure on them to win, oh well, they can't play for me"? How does that make sense, to screw yourself out of 6 players that could provide value for you?
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Post by CS on Mar 2, 2020 4:58:32 GMT -6
Why is putting pressure on someone such a taboo? Life is full of pressure. You either handle it or you don't. Kinda like you either handle it on the field or you don't. Don't think there's pressure in life? Have two kids and two mortgages and lose your job and get back to me. I can't speak for others, but my thinking here with this is some people do well with their coaching staff putting pressure on them to win (hence why I allowed for individual situations where you challenge such people in the OP), while others do not. Why cut yourself short of the players who function well when they can just go out and focus on doing their job? Just throwing numbers around here for the sake of the discussion, but say you have 20 players who have enough ability to consistently see the field. Of those 20, 14 of them can function or thrive with pressure put on them by you and the rest of the staff, while 6 of them do better if they just go out and do their job. Why say "If those 6 can't handle the staff putting pressure on them to win, oh well, they can't play for me"? How does that make sense, to screw yourself out of 6 players that could provide value for you? What about the pressure to do their job well? To think you can take the pressure out of any game is naive. I get what you’re saying. We talk about winning by being a winner. Setting goals, doing the little things etc. But, pressure is part of sports. Can’t get around it so you better teach them how to handle
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Post by coachcb on Mar 2, 2020 7:11:10 GMT -6
It's the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. We all want to win but the scoreboard is externally motivating; emphasizing that too much is a double edge sword. The kids are going to bust hump and fly around when things are going well, according to the score. But, they tend to struggle when that score is tight or they're losing.
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Post by CS on Mar 2, 2020 7:38:42 GMT -6
It's the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. We all want to win but the scoreboard is externally motivating; emphasizing that too much is a double edge sword. The kids are going to bust hump and fly around when things are going well, according to the score. But, they tend to struggle when that score is tight or they're losing. I'm not saying that you're wrong per se. But, I don't care how much you preach the score doesn't matter if you're taking a beat down the kids know it. I don't know any successful teams that just talks about winning games and not how to do it.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 2, 2020 8:15:31 GMT -6
It's the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. We all want to win but the scoreboard is externally motivating; emphasizing that too much is a double edge sword. The kids are going to bust hump and fly around when things are going well, according to the score. But, they tend to struggle when that score is tight or they're losing. I'm not saying that you're wrong per se. But, I don't care how much you preach the score doesn't matter if you're taking a beat down the kids know it. I don't know any successful teams that just talks about winning games and not how to do it.
IME, if the kids' primary motivation is taking pride in working hard and doing their jobs, they'll be able to weather those close/losing games better. Winning is the end game and a motivator as well but we've had teams completely fold in tight games when that's all that was emphasized.
This is something that we just couldn't get through to this year's team. In our third game, we were up on a team 7-0 going in the middle of the 3rd quarter. We were moving the ball but having a hard time punching it in. The kids were still playing hard and flying around because we were winning. We march it, our QB throws a pick on their 15 yard line, they bring it back and go up 8-7. We were down by one friggin' point and the team folded. We lost 21-7. We practice pressure/competitive situations in practice but this team was so motivated by the scoreboard that it only took one bad play that put us down by a point for half of them to say f- it.
The same was true for the two games that we won big. The kids stopped giving as much effort as soon as we were up on the other team. We dominated a team in the first quarter and went up 21-0; it took them marching it on us and making it a 21-8 game for the kids to get their heads out of their a--es. They were solely motivated by the scoreboard and it made it difficult to get them consistently play hard and execute.
We preached busting hump and letting the score take care of itself all year but it was losing battle. We were stomped by the last two teams on our schedule because we were eliminated from the playoffs at that point. We really didn't have a chance to beat one team (two FCS commits and very well coached) but we could've beaten the other one.
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Post by newhope on Mar 2, 2020 8:40:44 GMT -6
None of those guys really mean don't look at the scoreboard. That's an oversimplification. It's about emphasis--that your emphasis is not on the final score, but on the process. Your emphasis is on doing the little things right. If you do those things right, the wins and losses take care of themselves. Included in those little things would be some areas that are certainly scoreboard related.
I was fortunate enough to hear Wooden speak for nearly an entire day at a clinic, including a session in which he taught his offense to high school players who didn't know it. It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen. He did not miss the smallest detail. Nothing just slid by. Every mistake in fundamentals was corrected immediately. Once you saw him work, you knew exactly what he meant. You also understood why he was so successful.
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Post by funkfriss on Mar 2, 2020 8:51:01 GMT -6
coachcb this is a trend that I don't see changing any time soon. It is a video game mindset. As soon as you start losing or something bad happens, you exit the game and try again. The game is only rewarding when things go well. It is really crazy how poorly kids handle adversity and losing these days. And you really notice a difference in kids who play video games a lot vs. kids who don't. That said, I will go back to the OP. I didn't have much of an issue with your post tripsclosed until I read: "The potential problem I see with setting something up as being about winning, or about succeeding, even if a coach's definition of success isn't winning championships, ala John Wooden, is that the downside of winning is losing, and the downside of success is failure. Losing and failure are negative, unpleasant, undesirable, wanted to be avoided, and can make players worry and/or feel pressured, which can lead to mistakes."Losing and failure are paired together as negative because kids are trained this way. Whether its parents or peers somebody has taught them that when you lose your worth goes down when in fact the opposite should be true. Losing should be a great motivator and opportunity for improvement. Now, if you go into a competition, get beat, and do nothing about it, then you lose. However, if you utilize losing as a way to teach and motivate a player or team to get better, then you are going places. Losing is not something to be feared and the only way you learn this is through losing. Nothing is more satisfying than losing at something only to come back and do better through hard work, especially if you get another chance at the previous task to overcome it.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 2, 2020 9:29:22 GMT -6
funkfrissWe lost three tight games and played fundamentally sound throughout most of those games. We actually dished out more praise than constructive criticism in the film sessions following those games than following games we won. The mood in the room was somber and unfocused, because we lost. Most wouldn't take any pride in the fact that they fairly well but lost. Getting them dialed back following losses was tough; we were correcting fundamental mistakes that we hadn't seen since the start of the season. Fundamentals that they had executed well during the games we lost..
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Post by CS on Mar 2, 2020 9:52:34 GMT -6
None of those guys really mean don't look at the scoreboard. That's an oversimplification. It's about emphasis--that your emphasis is not on the final score, but on the process. Your emphasis is on doing the little things right. If you do those things right, the wins and losses take care of themselves. Included in those little things would be some areas that are certainly scoreboard related. I was fortunate enough to hear Wooden speak for nearly an entire day at a clinic, including a session in which he taught his offense to high school players who didn't know it. It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen. He did not miss the smallest detail. Nothing just slid by. Every mistake in fundamentals was corrected immediately. Once you saw him work, you knew exactly what he meant. You also understood why he was so successful. This is what I'm talking about. Those guys did talk about winning just not on the scoreboard. Winning reps in practice or setting new PR's in the weight room. Great leaders set goals for the team and hold them accountable.
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Post by CS on Mar 2, 2020 9:54:28 GMT -6
funkfriss We lost three tight games and played fundamentally sound throughout most of those games. We actually dished out more praise than constructive criticism in the film sessions following those games than following games we won. The mood in the room was somber and unfocused, because we lost. Most wouldn't take any pride in the fact that they fairly well but lost. Getting them dialed back following losses was tough; we were correcting fundamental mistakes that we hadn't seen since the start of the season. Fundamentals that they had executed well during the games we lost.. Some teams are just immature like that.
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CoachDP
Sophomore Member
Posts: 240
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Post by CoachDP on Mar 2, 2020 10:05:15 GMT -6
instead simply ask your players to do the best that they can do After the game, or after practice, have you ever asked players if they gave their best today? Many will raise their hand. Problem is, what if the player has said that he gave his best, but you don't believe he has? It's like "asking for 100%." How do you quantify it? Instead, I ask that they do their job. If they're getting their job done, then I don't care if they gave me 80% or 125%, as I can't measure that anyway. What I can measure is their results on each play.
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