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Post by dubber on Feb 17, 2020 21:18:17 GMT -6
So, in my twenties I was a “get on board or get gone” type of coach. If a kid missed summer stuff, had a bad attitude, etc we were better off without him.
As I got older, and through the influence of my HC, I’ve adopted the idea that we are the last stop before real life hits them in the face, and that you should rarely give up on a kid.
That doesn’t mean you don’t hold them accountable, in fact, caring for them means you do......but you almost never kick them off. Second chance (with consequences)....again and again.
Somehow, kids with behavior/laziness problems don’t effect our team moral.....the true cancers are the kids you have no justification to kick off, they are just selfish crappy leaders.
Our worst years were entitled seniors who showed up to weights, worked hard, but were ultimately selfish.
Anyway, back to the topic: anyone else have this transformation? Any one think I’m just a {censored}?
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Post by silkyice on Feb 17, 2020 21:43:56 GMT -6
So, in my twenties I was a “get on board or get gone” type of coach. If a kid missed summer stuff, had a bad attitude, etc we were better off without him. As I got older, and through the influence of my HC, I’ve adopted the idea that we are the last stop before real life hits them in the face, and that you should rarely give up on a kid. That doesn’t mean you don’t hold them accountable, in fact, caring for them means you do......but you almost never kick them off. Second chance (with consequences)....again and again. Somehow, kids with behavior/laziness problems don’t effect our team moral.....the true cancers are the kids you have no justification to kick off, they are just selfish crappy leaders. Our worst years were entitled seniors who showed up to weights, worked hard, but were ultimately selfish. Anyway, back to the topic: anyone else have this transformation? Any one think I’m just a {censored}? The best reasons to part ways with a kid are 1) when it is actually the best thing for the kid 2) when keeping the kid brings other kids down Knowing when 1 and/or 2 is true is the tricky part. |
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Post by coachdubyah on Feb 17, 2020 21:48:57 GMT -6
So, in my twenties I was a “get on board or get gone” type of coach. If a kid missed summer stuff, had a bad attitude, etc we were better off without him. As I got older, and through the influence of my HC, I’ve adopted the idea that we are the last stop before real life hits them in the face, and that you should rarely give up on a kid. That doesn’t mean you don’t hold them accountable, in fact, caring for them means you do......but you almost never kick them off. Second chance (with consequences)....again and again. Somehow, kids with behavior/laziness problems don’t effect our team moral.....the true cancers are the kids you have no justification to kick off, they are just selfish crappy leaders. Our worst years were entitled seniors who showed up to weights, worked hard, but were ultimately selfish. Anyway, back to the topic: anyone else have this transformation? Any one think I’m just a {censored}? The best reasons to part ways with a kid are 1) when it is actually the best thing for the kid 2) when keeping the kid brings other kids down Knowing when 1 and/or 2 is true is the tricky part. I totally struggle with this. I’m somewhat of a softy and see good in a lot of people. It’s a character flaw. I have 2 on my roster that I really don’t know what to do with and it’s a situation if they need us more than we need them.... I responded to keep up with this one. Potential Head Coaches need to hear this: You won’t be ready to make these decisions. It’s different in the big chair. |
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Post by s73 on Feb 18, 2020 1:44:42 GMT -6
So, in my twenties I was a “get on board or get gone” type of coach. If a kid missed summer stuff, had a bad attitude, etc we were better off without him. As I got older, and through the influence of my HC, I’ve adopted the idea that we are the last stop before real life hits them in the face, and that you should rarely give up on a kid. That doesn’t mean you don’t hold them accountable, in fact, caring for them means you do......but you almost never kick them off. Second chance (with consequences)....again and again. Somehow, kids with behavior/laziness problems don’t effect our team moral.....the true cancers are the kids you have no justification to kick off, they are just selfish crappy leaders. Our worst years were entitled seniors who showed up to weights, worked hard, but were ultimately selfish. Anyway, back to the topic: anyone else have this transformation? Any one think I’m just a {censored}? Up way too late (napped earlier and can't sleep, hence I may see this later this afternoon and wonder what the he!! I was thinking lol). I have had a similar mentality and transformation. Essentially, I see FB coaches as some of the most entitled people despite the fact that we accuse kids of entitlement. I've been coaching for 23 years now (16 as a HFC) so don't "hammer me" for saying it. IME it's true. We expect kids to make FB #1 at all times. We expect them to drop other interests during Fb season more so that other sports IN GENERAL. Vacation over summer? Never. Can't lift in the morning even tho you are in season for BB / wrestling? Unacceptable. Want to attend open gym for another sport during FB season? Crazy! Point I'm making is we don't play well w/ other coaches but complain when other coaches don't accommodate us. Why? I suspect b/c we have been KING in HS sports for decades. More kids want to play FB than any other sport, we keep the most, get the most community interest, etc. HOWEVER, that has been changing in the last decade w/ CTE, etc. But I suspect it's also been changing b/c kids have so many other options than ever before. What I'm driving at is MOST coaches (smaller school, average talent coaches) probably need to get off high horse and be more flexible w/ kids. Doesn't mean you tolerate disrespect, just means I think we need to be more EMPATHETIC. Example, have a kid that came out last season, missed a lot of practices. Well, he lived 2 miles away and mom doesn't have a car. He also works to help make ends meet as mom is on disability. In the past, I would've held him to the same standards as anyone else. But the REALITY is he wasn't starting from the same place as other kids. He had significant challenges that others didn't contend with. FOR ME, this required some empathy and patience. It wasn't easy, was considering booting him several times, but in the long run I kept him and glad I did. It was good for him and nobody on the team saw his lack of attendance as something they should follow. All were pretty aware of his challenges. I think I did right by him. Again, all of this above is GENERALLY SPEAKING. All situations are circumstantial. But all in all I think we need to be more open minded to adapt to current HS FB climate. JMO. OMG what did I just write? LOL |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Feb 18, 2020 7:47:04 GMT -6
I have had lots of kids quit due to the demands of the program and their inability to either commit or communicate their conflicts. That being said I have only removed 3 kids from the team in the last five years.
My only regret over these last five years is that I didn't remove a kid from the team. He didn't work hard, he was selfish, he was a cancer in the locker room, i had a soft spot for him because he got hurt his freshmen year and had complications that resulted in him missing almost an entire year of sports. Should have been gone after week 3 and we would have been better as a team.
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Post by cwaltsmith on Feb 18, 2020 7:51:24 GMT -6
I have morphed the other way a little I think... When I was young, I thought I could change the world and bring every kid out of the dark and into the light of greatness and being a model citizen... Ive realized that aint happening most of the time. I still think we should give them at least a 2nd chance... I think we should help kids as long as they want to be helped and are showing effort as trying to help themselves.
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Post by blb on Feb 18, 2020 7:53:15 GMT -6
I was all for second chances. Kids are kids, they do stupid stuff sometimes.
Problem is often when you have to give a kid a second chance, it winds up coming back to bite you in the azz.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 18, 2020 8:15:04 GMT -6
We ran into this issue with a seriously difficult senior this season. He ran for his discipline issues, I suspended him for a half, then for a full game, etc..etc.. It finally came to a head on a road trip where he caused some serious problems and it was clear that he had become a truly cancerous. He decided to crank it to an 11 on that road trip and I booted him. Ultimately, I feel that I gave the kid too many chances. None of us saw just how cancerous he had become until that road trip but we certainly knew there was potential. This was the worst situation I have dealt with as a coach and it has changed my perspective on things. I was all about giving kids second chances but as blb pointed out; it can come back to bite you in the rear. |
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jaydub66
Sophomore Member
Varsity D-Line Coach
Posts: 223 
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Post by jaydub66 on Feb 18, 2020 8:56:40 GMT -6
I've only worked in areas with kids from tough situations. I give the kids slack while also keeping them on the straight and narrow.
Out of the hundreds of kids, only a couple never seemed to understand the basic things. I take playing time away (including practice) from kids who miss practice, don't behave in class, etc., but never have it as a death sentence for those things except for those couple of kids.
One kid just would never show up. I talked to him about it. Said he had stuff going on and I reminded him so does everyone else and that football should be a place to not worry about that stuff. I said if he no-show/no-calls again, I was going to turn his stuff in. The next time he showed up his locker was empty and was upset.
Another kid was just an all-around turd and just wouldn't do anything right. His home life wasn't bad though. He was the smallest, weakest kid on the team but spent 90% of his time around the team messing with teammates. Same thing, I talked to him first. Laid out the guidelines about how to be a good teammate and gave him a week to change his behavior. His stuff was cleaned out at the end of the week because of his behavior everyday.
Always talk first, lay out the guidelines and specifics, and give them a chance. Both kids that were kicked off were told they could rejoin next year but neither did. They weren't the only kids cut from the team but they were the only kids cut and never came back with a better mindset.
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Post by airraidallday on Feb 18, 2020 9:07:15 GMT -6
This past season I had to face this head on in my first year as Head Coach. Had a kid who was a constant discipline problem. Late to practice, missing practice, skipping study hall and weights, missed multiple games due to suspension for violating team rules, blew assignments on the field and complained about playing time. However, this kid already has a parole officer. If he wasn't playing football he would be right back on the streets running with the same crew he always had. I see him half as much in school now as I did during football season.
Was it the right decision for the kid to keep them around? Yes, I believe that it was.
Was it the right decision for the team? Absolutely not. I am still dealing with fallout and attitude issues. A lot of coaches and players feel there was no discipline despite the fact that this one kid had after practice almost everyday and missed multiple games.
I think I cut the kid in the spring knowing what I know now if I had to do it again.
This is a long winded way of saying I think you have to take every case as its own thing when sitting in the HFC chair. You also have to know when to cut your losses and when a kid is responding to discipline and cleaning up his act.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 18, 2020 9:57:20 GMT -6
I should have prefaced my earlier post by stating that we had set policies on in-season attendance, school and practice behavior and tardiness to practice. All fell under the "coaches' discretion" clause but we enforced them fairly and consistently. Basically, all of the kids got two-three chances (within policy) to get their stuff together before we considered kicking them off of the team.
IME, with a typical kid, it only takes running them once after practice for b.s. to get their stuff in order. The rest typically either figure it out or are quit when they're at half or full game suspensions. But, you do have those rare kids who don't respond to discipline within policy. At that stage, they need to go.
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Post by wingtol on Feb 18, 2020 15:56:47 GMT -6
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
It's hard to determine this stuff cause every case is different. Can't treat everyone equally but you can treat them fairly. Taking a class now and a big them is equality vs equity. Think that can be applied to coaching over all.
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Post by blb on Feb 18, 2020 16:13:26 GMT -6
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It's hard to determine this stuff cause every case is different. Can't treat everyone equally but you can treat them fairly. Taking a class now and a big them is equality vs equity. Think that can be applied to coaching over all.
wingtol When do you think administrators will start treating teachers (much less coaches) that way?
And legislators treating school districts and teachers similarly for standardized test scores?
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Post by wingtol on Feb 18, 2020 18:59:37 GMT -6
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It's hard to determine this stuff cause every case is different. Can't treat everyone equally but you can treat them fairly. Taking a class now and a big them is equality vs equity. Think that can be applied to coaching over all.
wingtol When do you think administrators will start treating teachers (much less coaches) that way?
And legislators treating school districts and teachers similarly for standardized test scores?
Probably the 34th of Nevertober. It is a school finance class so there is much debate over equity and equality. |
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Post by coachdubyah on Feb 18, 2020 21:26:39 GMT -6
I should have prefaced my earlier post by stating that we had set policies on in-season attendance, school and practice behavior and tardiness to practice. All fell under the "coaches' discretion" clause but we enforced them fairly and consistently. Basically, all of the kids got two-three chances (within policy) to get their stuff together before we considered kicking them off of the team. IME, with a typical kid, it only takes running them once after practice for b.s. to get their stuff in order. The rest typically either figure it out or are quit when they're at half or full game suspensions. But, you do have those rare kids who don't respond to discipline within policy. At that stage, they need to go. I know you well enough on here to know that you probably have something specific you do for punishment/extra but, I think the whole running extra for punishment is total BS and doesnt work. I learned this from bluedarters but when you punish it needs to be something that in no way makes them a better football player. I roll them, push a plate or 2x4 across grass...just something that in no way makes them better except to make them miserable. I learned this back when I coached in college. We had a renegade JUCO transfer that was really stupid good and he was a hell raiser. Turns out running him didn’t help. He was in fact an animal and it didn’t phase him. As a young Asst I was finally put in charge of it and learned about the 2x4 thing. I did it and he wasn’t a problem any more. He told “Coach that sucks and I ain’t doin that anymore”...I said then “stay out of trouble”. He wasn’t an issue anymore and told everyone about what he had to do. We really didn’t have any major issues that season. I’m not taking credit for that just pointing out if doing crap like that doesn’t help...bench them. Don’t know what this offered but, just be careful how you “punish” players. |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 19, 2020 6:25:44 GMT -6
I should have prefaced my earlier post by stating that we had set policies on in-season attendance, school and practice behavior and tardiness to practice. All fell under the "coaches' discretion" clause but we enforced them fairly and consistently. Basically, all of the kids got two-three chances (within policy) to get their stuff together before we considered kicking them off of the team. IME, with a typical kid, it only takes running them once after practice for b.s. to get their stuff in order. The rest typically either figure it out or are quit when they're at half or full game suspensions. But, you do have those rare kids who don't respond to discipline within policy. At that stage, they need to go. I know you well enough on here to know that you probably have something specific you do for punishment/extra but, I think the whole running extra for punishment is total BS and doesnt work. I learned this from bluedarters but when you punish it needs to be something that in no way makes them a better football player. I roll them, push a plate or 2x4 across grass...just something that in no way makes them better except to make them miserable. I learned this back when I coached in college. We had a renegade JUCO transfer that was really stupid good and he was a hell raiser. Turns out running him didn’t help. He was in fact an animal and it didn’t phase him. As a young Asst I was finally put in charge of it and learned about the 2x4 thing. I did it and he wasn’t a problem any more. He told “Coach that sucks and I ain’t doin that anymore”...I said then “stay out of trouble”. He wasn’t an issue anymore and told everyone about what he had to do. We really didn’t have any major issues that season. I’m not taking credit for that just pointing out if doing crap like that doesn’t help...bench them. Don’t know what this offered but, just be careful how you “punish” players.
Honestly, I prefer to simply pull playing time and avoid using conditioning as a punishment all together. I think it sends a much stronger message when we bench a kid straight off the bat for any crap. But, we're a small school with low numbers so we really can't afford to bench a senior for a quarter and start a 14 year old freshman.
With that being said, we don't just run the kids. We have them bear-crawl one hundred yards, sprint back, crab-walk the same distance, sprint back, and finish up with duck/wrestler walk and sprint back. It sounds like overkill but it sets a "no-b.s." tone the first time the team sees a kid doing that circuit. Word spreads quickly about how badly that circuit sucks and the kids fall in line.
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Post by justafbcoach on Feb 19, 2020 6:34:09 GMT -6
I think a lot of coaches who started young (I got my first Asst. job when I was 21...I'm 12 years in now) have probably gone through the transformation the OP is talking about. I've worked for two really good HC's and they helped me understand that for a lot of these kids, the only reason they come to school is to play football. The only reason they stay above a 2.0 is because of coaches like us that see them and treat them as people in our lives and not players on our teams.
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Post by stilltryin on Feb 19, 2020 13:31:40 GMT -6
I think a lot of coaches who started young (I got my first Asst. job when I was 21...I'm 12 years in now) have probably gone through the transformation the OP is talking about. I've worked for two really good HC's and they helped me understand that for a lot of these kids, the only reason they come to school is to play football. The only reason they stay above a 2.0 is because of coaches like us that see them and treat them as people in our lives and not players on our teams. Yes. It's been my experience that the kids you'd most want to run off are the ones who need what you're giving them -- accountability, a chance to be part of something bigger than themselves, people who actually care about them as people -- the most. |
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Post by Coach Vint on Feb 24, 2020 9:39:22 GMT -6
If a kid isn't in your program you can't affect him. We do everything we can to not eliminate kids from our program. We fight like hell for them to make it. But the reality is there are some that won't. We rarely have to kick a kid off our team. They usually decide for themselves and stop showing up. Once they stop showing up, we reach out to them. Some come back, but most don't. Attitudes can be changed. Work ethic can be changed. With all that said, you come to the point when you will know that a kid is detrimental to your program. This doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
The easy thing to do is get rid of a kid. The hard thing to do is to dedicate resources to helping him grow and become a part of something special. It's different for each kid and each program. We have found that some of our best players started off with a lot of baggage and were very troubled off the field. Many of them great and became better people by being in our program. However, some weren't able to become a part of the team. They eventually were no longer with us.
I rarely remember us having to call a kid in to "kick him off."
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