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Post by saintrad on Jan 4, 2006 16:28:38 GMT -6
Here is the case before you gentlemen.
During this last season we were getting ready for an away game. One of the other assistant coaches asked one of our Sophmore Varsity players to assist with the loading of van with the equipment. The player refused to on the grounds "he had better things to do." Since I was the "bad guy" coach this last season I asked the player if he could help me get the van loaded... he looked at me and told me"He already told Coach So & SO he had other things to do." Being the calm personality type I looke dth player straight in the eye and told him he was demoted to 4th string for the 1st half due to his selfish behaviour on my side of the ball (defense). He was a back-up in the secondary and he really wasnt the "sharpest tool in the shed", but the kid had wheels. After i 'discussed' this with him he goes to the HC who immediately comes in and tells me that "we never hurt the team like that by punishing a player before a game."
So here is my quetion to you: at what point does a player cross the bounds of being a team player and being a prima dona? Plus, is it right ot reward a player with playing time when he openly refused to do a task asked of him?
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Post by outlawzheadcoach on Jan 4, 2006 16:50:14 GMT -6
Whose job is it to load the van? Is it the coaches job or the players?
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Post by aztec on Jan 4, 2006 16:55:17 GMT -6
3 years ago we had more than a few bad apples. The one thing we have done is get rid of them no matter the tallent level. We have a very extremly talented receiver who had been allowed to do things that were determental to the team. When we took over we had a long sit down with him and he was ok until the last game of the year. He exploded. He tried to fight a guy on the other team after he dropped a ball. Our center came over to pull him away and he tried fighting him (our own player and captin) then he proceded to kick over the water table and to cap it off he threw a ball into the stands (a bullet) when they started booing him. Our stands. We suspened him for the remainer of the season which was our playoff game and things where much better for everyone. Lesson learned, the second we see a problem we address it then if they don't fix it they are gone. The TEAM is more important that then individual. Our head coach makes it clear to all the players that every assistant (including the trainer and equipment guy) are just like him. If they give another coach a problem they will deal with the head coach or myself (I tend to be the crazy guy who guys like but don't want to cross my path) If the head coach or I have to step in then that player will be punished.
To me your situation could have been avoided by the head coach making clear his expectations of his coaches and what boundary they have to punish. Our HC sets the boundary for what we can do or don't do. We have had our JV bus at varsity games get there and do 100 up downs for screwing around on the bus. Communicaition is key when it comes to what you can do or don't do and if a head coach will back you up. There is nothing more humiliating to a coach then punishing a kid then being shot down. Plus kids are all about one thing- PLAYING TIME. Sit a kid when he acts up and then his parents will be asking the kid what did you do? That is what we would do when the above A-Hole acted up or didn't go hard in practice. We limited playing time. In turn he responed by doing what was asked of him, until the last game.
Hope this helps and it is not too disjointed.
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Post by aztec on Jan 4, 2006 16:56:48 GMT -6
Whose job is it to load the van? Is it the coaches job or the players? Doen't matter. If a coach asks you to do something you do it. |
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Post by mugz on Jan 4, 2006 17:09:58 GMT -6
I agree with Aztec....... You never question or disobey a coach.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 4, 2006 17:15:02 GMT -6
I tell my players if any of the coaches ask or tell you to do something (like carry something) you do it without complaining or finding someone else to pawn it off on.
I would bench the kid for a while until I was ready to remove my foot from his a**. He would also have a sterm talking to and a bunch of fun drills at the next practice. I have made the mistake of trying to smooth over things and all that. If the kid is a starter or sees major PT taking his playing time will get his attention.
When I was a volunteer coach a kid smarted off and I made him do updowns. The HC came over and prompty tripled his updowns. Nice to get backed up.
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Post by phantom on Jan 4, 2006 17:36:36 GMT -6
I agree that if a coach asks a player to do something the player does it. Period (unless it's totally insane). The thing that bothers me in this case is the selfishness of the kid. I like to think that if I asked one of our starters to help he do something he'd do it.
I do think that the HC had a point. There's no need to disrupt the team right before a game. You can always handle it on Monday.
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Post by sls on Jan 4, 2006 18:28:06 GMT -6
No excuse for that behavior, sit him.
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Post by saintrad on Jan 4, 2006 18:40:23 GMT -6
the problem is two-fold:
1, if you let the player get away with saying what he did in the way he did it it puts the player in a position higher than God. If we stress TEAM TEAM TEAM then it should be that way for everything;
2. the second area is the fact that the player's attitude was actually hurting the team more than the coaches action. If he shows that kind of attitude in the locker room without the stress of playing in the game, what willkeep him from doing the same thing if he doesn't want to go in during a game situation?
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Post by phantom on Jan 4, 2006 21:23:37 GMT -6
I sympathize with your position but it's a good lesson. Don't make decisions that are not your's to make. Re-reading your post, I'm not comfortable with the way that your HC cut you off at the knees but he is the HC.
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Post by saintrad on Jan 4, 2006 23:40:24 GMT -6
actually I was given the authority, in my contract no less, by the HC to handle all discipline matters unless they violated school policy. I could really careless no about the incident since the HC resigned at the end of the season. My thought process is i know that this type of question willcome up on the HC interview for me. I just needed to think through the situation and needed feedback.
But the question remains, a player does this to a coach, teacher, admin, whatever, should you let them play and deal with the problem later, since winning and playing as a team is the rule, or is sitting the kid for a quarter or two actually more beneficial for the team in the long run?
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lp78
Freshmen Member
Posts: 32
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Post by lp78 on Jan 5, 2006 1:29:48 GMT -6
Sit him down. What would happen to him if he did this on a real job?
I only coach youth football, but I had something like this happen to me years ago. I coached a young man who was drafted by the Oakland Raiders, All Con. S.S. in college, & All State in HS. As you would think, he was the star of our league. But his attitude was bad. One week he told one the coach's(I was at work) that he wasn't going to do something the way the coach wanted it done in practice. He went & sat down under a tree after the coach said this to him. He then skipped the next practice. He was our star player on Off & Def. Punter, FG kicker etc. When the next game came up, I had someone playing his position in the pre-game warm ups.
When the game was over. (We won 28-0) I told everyone on our team if you don't come to practice or do what is asked of you. Your playing time will reflect it. I didn't care if we won another game, but we were going to do things right as a team. The message was not taken as a threat, because this young man never touched the field that game. We went undefeated that year.
Many years later as a adult. He pulled me over driving down the main street in our city. ( Hadn't seen him in years) He came up & gave me a hug & told me what that season did for him as becoming a better man & player.
Sorry for rambling, but that young man made my day & the reason I still coach youth football.
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Post by tog on Jan 5, 2006 6:39:54 GMT -6
actually I was given the authority, in my contract no less, by the HC to handle all discipline matters unless they violated school policy. I could really careless no about the incident since the HC resigned at the end of the season. My thought process is i know that this type of question willcome up on the HC interview for me. I just needed to think through the situation and needed feedback. But the question remains, a player does this to a coach, teacher, admin, whatever, should you let them play and deal with the problem later, since winning and playing as a team is the rule, or is sitting the kid for a quarter or two actually more beneficial for the team in the long run? Sitting the kid for some time will make the point and is better for the long run. Sounds like the kid already had some kind of attitude for some reason. Maybe if the hc had made things more clear about who is in charge towards the start of the year this wouldn't have happened. |
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Post by los on Jan 5, 2006 21:06:02 GMT -6
Read an interesting story about Shug Jordan not long ago, He and his later Heisman trophy winner QB, Pat Sullivan had a disagreement on a 4th down situation (punt or go for it) Jordan called for a quick punt by Sullivan, who thought he could get a first down and took off running! He didn't make it and upon returning to the sideline, was met by coach Jordan who told him- only one of them was ultimately in charge of the team- Sullivan spent the rest of that game on the bench!
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Post by shortyardage on Jan 6, 2006 17:37:43 GMT -6
Your problem isn't the player, it's the head coach. He runs a very sloppy program.
There is an old coaching axiom:" If discipline doesn't come from the head coach then it doesn't come." The player was able to do what he did because the head coach backed HIM up (albeit maybe by default) instead of backikng up the assistant coach (you).
You might have been out of line in demoting the player on the spot, that's usually the head coaches job, but it's the head coaches priomary job to have this type of thing in line before it hits the fan, someone should have been assigned to load the van and it should havce been THAT person's job to get it done.
The head coach needs to run a program with greater discipline and organization, things shouldn't be left to chance. Program needs should be articulated during the off season and reinforced at all points.
I ask you, why would this player ever do anything that a coach asks him to do, such as show up for strength training, practice hard, give an extra effort, etc. when he knows that the head coach will back him up and listen to his sob story and over ride an assistant coach.
To be blunt, it sounds as though your head coach is in trouble and doesn't know it.
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Post by saintrad on Jan 6, 2006 18:38:14 GMT -6
actually that's the funniest part of this... the head coach told all of us, coaches and players, that the discplining of players and the building of the team takes PRIORITY over any individual's needs, and he stressed ANY. He also made it abudentantly clear at camp that postion coaches had authority to "use the weapons at his disposal how he sees fit."
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lp78
Freshmen Member
Posts: 32
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Post by lp78 on Jan 7, 2006 9:25:47 GMT -6
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Post by wildcat on Jan 7, 2006 10:09:00 GMT -6
Coach - I respectfully disagree. VT ONLY took action against Vick after he embarrassed the school before a ntional television audience. If anything, the preferential treatment that Vick received for his past transgressions directly led to this behavior. Marcus Vick and Maurice Clarett are great examples of why coaches need to put the hammer down early and often when superstars get too big for their britches. We have to remember that we are training MEN, not football players and at some time in the future, the lessons they learn in football will carry over to real life. If a superstar player has been handled with kid gloves by coaches, that will only fuel the belief that the player is untouchable. |
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lp78
Freshmen Member
Posts: 32
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Post by lp78 on Jan 7, 2006 10:58:31 GMT -6
Coach - I respectfully disagree. VT ONLY took action against Vick after he embarrassed the school before a ntional television audience. If anything, the preferential treatment that Vick received for his past transgressions directly led to this behavior. Marcus Vick and Maurice Clarett are great examples of why coaches need to put the hammer down early and often when superstars get too big for their britches. We have to remember that we are training MEN, not football players and at some time in the future, the lessons they learn in football will carry over to real life. If a superstar player has been handled with kid gloves by coaches, that will only fuel the belief that the player is untouchable. You said exactly what I was thinking. I have seen HS players get away with skipping practice, failed drug tests, to later added back to teams. Given 2nd & 3rd chances to get right. Then leave on a Football scholarship, only to do the same thing again & get booted out. These young men don't realize the habits they develop as HS players will carry on into adult lives. Some day they will all have to get a job, pay bills, raise a family, etc . |
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Post by gmccown on Jan 7, 2006 11:27:20 GMT -6
Unless he had a funeral to attend you were too nice! 1/2 of the game? If you let one do it then all will follow. To be honest I would have told the kid that if he was to busy to help load he was to busy to suit up at all. What we've done in the past is to establish random 4 to 5 player teams who are responsible for helping the coaches with equipment in a given week. They rotate and normaly each group only has the duty one week of the season. (depending on numbers and post season)
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Post by airman on Jan 7, 2006 13:22:21 GMT -6
meat on the hoof that is what mike vick was/is. after VT secured there money from the bowl game he was then kicked off the team.
last night on WGN(chicago radio station) sports central they read a timeline of vicks transgressions.
Vt clearly looked the otherway. he had drug possion charge, he was convicted of endangering minors and ordered to stay away from woman under the age of 18. guess vick had a thing for 14 and 15 yr olds.
his rape charge against a 15 old was dropped to do lack of eveidence.
Vt should have axed him way back in 2004.
instead the enabled him. tressel did the same thing with clarett.
IMO you should be harder on your superstars then you are on the rest of your team. make sure they know who the top dog is.
but alas, most h.s. coaches will not suspend a superstar because in the end we are paid to win games.
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Post by outlawzheadcoach on Jan 7, 2006 14:13:01 GMT -6
Sounds like they should have named him Marcus Con"vick"t..... It will come back to haunt him.
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Post by phantom on Jan 7, 2006 14:56:22 GMT -6
Coach - I respectfully disagree. You said exactly what I was thinking. I have seen HS players get away with skipping practice, failed drug tests, to later added back to teams. Given 2nd & 3rd chances to get right. Then leave on a Football scholarship, only to do the same thing again & get booted out. These young men don't realize the habits they develop as HS players will carry on into adult lives. Some day they will all have to get a job, pay bills, raise a family, etc . And I've seen HS players get 2nd and 3rd chances and go on to become great team players and, more importantly, solid citizens. |
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Post by phantom on Jan 7, 2006 15:18:12 GMT -6
meat on the hoof that is what mike vick was/is. after VT secured there money from the bowl game he was then kicked off the team. last night on WGN(chicago radio station) sports central they read a timeline of vicks transgressions. Vt clearly looked the otherway. he had drug possion charge, he was convicted of endangering minors and ordered to stay away from woman under the age of 18. guess vick had a thing for 14 and 15 yr olds. his rape charge against a 15 old was dropped to do lack of eveidence. Saying that they used him until after the bowl game is off base since the offense that did him in happened during the game. For the record, here are the facts on the statuatory rape charge that never happened. Vick and two other players met the girls on campus at a VT women's basketball game. The girls told them that they were freshmen at nearby Radford University and made arrangements to be picked up later. They went to the players's apartment and you can figure out the rest from there. It doesn't excuse him but unless you checked IDs better than I or the guys I knew in college did it was a situation that could happen. Anybody who thinks that there's no way to mistake a 14 year old for an 18 year old needs to open his eyes while walking the halls of his HS. I'm not making apologies for Vick. I think that VT made the right decision. I just don't think the "rapist" charge sticks. |
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