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Post by airraider on Oct 17, 2007 19:00:29 GMT -6
As much of you know, Im a solid supporter of the spread offense.
I firmly believe that being able to get your athletes in space is a very good concept and I prefer to live and die by 4 and 5 receiver sets.
But, I am at my wits end. Week after week we face teams who are far superior to us.
While with another team last year, we went 13-1 and broke many school passing records and had an all-state receiver with a few others making second team and several all district players.
As the OC I had several great athletes to work with.
This year.. I have none.. and when I say none.. I mean none..
My fastest player has been clocked at a 4.95 and weights all of 165lbs.
One of my split ends runs pretty good routes, is pretty tough, and catches the ball fairly well. He therefor has had a pretty decent season so far with 40 receptions for nearly 600 yards through 7 games. But he only runs around a 5.0 and is around 5'11.
My other split is about 5'6 140 and runs around a 5.1 forty. He is pretty slow and very small.. but is fearless and has pretty good hands..
Last week my best receiver had the 4th place 100m guy in the state covering him. He is 6'1 185 and is a very good ball player..
So he can pretty much press him all day without fear of the fade or anything deep..
How do some of you passing guys deal with this?
We try to get some match ups by running quads or other things.. we run the draw.. we run lots of screens.. but we are just doing what we can do..
we have 63 boys in the whole high school and we are 99% white. We are playing some teams in our district (that we have to play) who have around 110-120 boys who are 90% black.
We just simply do not match up..
The whole staff is in its first year.. and the off season program has left a lot to be desired over the last several years.. so of course a big impact there would close the gap.. but you still cant get on level playing fields..
Anyone else in this boat??
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 17, 2007 19:26:49 GMT -6
Well, that is the problem with the "spread" philosophy. You are asking kids to win one on one battles.
I think that is why lots of teams in your predicament have some success with the dblwing when they go to it (and really believe in it). It doesn't ask anyone to win one on one...
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Post by Yash on Oct 17, 2007 19:30:50 GMT -6
Do what navy does to bigger faster stronger teams, out scheme them and run the option!
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Post by airraider on Oct 17, 2007 19:31:53 GMT -6
Well, that is the problem with the "spread" philosophy. You are asking kids to win one on one battles. I think that is why lots of teams in your predicament have some success with the dblwing when they go to it (and really believe in it). It doesn't ask anyone to win one on one... I agree with that 110%.. But I do not even believe my kids are strong enough or quick enough to run the double wing.. My line is absolutely weak.. one kid.. is about 5'10 270 and can only bench 165. Well, could only bench 165. This was back around two-a-days.. now he might can get close to 200.. but you never know. |
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Post by airraider on Oct 17, 2007 19:32:54 GMT -6
Do what navy does to bigger faster stronger teams, out scheme them and run the option! That is a thought.. we put in some midline stuff this week.. heck if we cant block them.. might as well try to read them.. |
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Post by eickst on Oct 17, 2007 19:46:08 GMT -6
Well, that is the problem with the "spread" philosophy. You are asking kids to win one on one battles. I think that is why lots of teams in your predicament have some success with the dblwing when they go to it (and really believe in it). It doesn't ask anyone to win one on one... I agree with that 110%.. But I do not even believe my kids are strong enough or quick enough to run the double wing.. My line is absolutely weak.. one kid.. is about 5'10 270 and can only bench 165. Well, could only bench 165. This was back around two-a-days.. now he might can get close to 200.. but you never know. That's the whole point of the double wing offense (not double wign formation). Get double teams and down blocks, not head up catastrophes waiting to happen. With NO athletes, I'm surprised you even tried the offense you are using. What's the point of getting a kid the ball in space if he can't do anything with it? Time for student body left, student body right, and student body forward. You said you had great athletes last year, where were these kids during that season? Either they are rookies or you didn't get them in the weight room enough. If they were in your program last year shame on you for not getting them ready. Not trying to be an ass or anything, but you can't rely on great athletes every year. You need to pick an offensive system that fits your personnel. |
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Post by davecisar on Oct 17, 2007 20:00:21 GMT -6
Im not a HS coach, But if you have no athletes, or your athletes are far slower and less athletic than the competition, not sure how putting them in space does you much good.
The faster and more athletic we are the more we like to operate in space, The less athletic and fast we are the less we like to operate in space. Seems pretty obvious.
Where we are the all White HS teams do real well vs the inner-city teams. Millard North/Millard West dominate the inner-city teams with power running and option games.
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Post by airraider on Oct 17, 2007 20:04:13 GMT -6
I agree with that 110%.. But I do not even believe my kids are strong enough or quick enough to run the double wing.. My line is absolutely weak.. one kid.. is about 5'10 270 and can only bench 165. Well, could only bench 165. This was back around two-a-days.. now he might can get close to 200.. but you never know. That's the whole point of the double wing offense (not double wign formation). Get double teams and down blocks, not head up catastrophes waiting to happen. With NO athletes, I'm surprised you even tried the offense you are using. What's the point of getting a kid the ball in space if he can't do anything with it? Time for student body left, student body right, and student body forward. You said you had great athletes last year, where were these kids during that season? Either they are rookies or you didn't get them in the weight room enough. If they were in your program last year shame on you for not getting them ready. Not trying to be an {censored} or anything, but you can't rely on great athletes every year. You need to pick an offensive system that fits your personnel. Completely new team.. This team didnt win a game in the last 2 seasons and with only 1 beatble team left on the schedule, could go for 3. Even the year before the loosing streak they only won 3 games. We run it, because that is what we run.. we came in preaching to these kids that we were going to be a spread team.. and that made a lot of them go ahead and play after years of running the Wing-t. |
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Post by brophy on Oct 17, 2007 20:04:37 GMT -6
0-7
so what are you doing now to develop the QBs & WR for next year?
I mean, I like the gadget stuff you guys do, but can they work your HALO / TIGER stuff enough times to maaaaaybe something will click for them by the time the season ends (that you can build off of for next year)?
I mean, 0-7, what does it matter? Its not like you guys are losing any worse than the previous seasons, and you can still park your truck in the lot without it being on cinders by the end of practice.
Play every kid you can get your hand on (like I'm sure you're doing) , but I'd agree with above....invest in defense for now.
Give your guys another year, this is probably a culture shock for them and the community.
Then, come February, do the "Ole Blue" Drill.
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Post by airraider on Oct 17, 2007 20:06:07 GMT -6
Im not a HS coach, But if you have no athletes, or your athletes are far slower and less athletic than the competition, not sure how putting them in space does you much good. The faster and more athletic we are the more we like to operate in space, The less athletic and fast we are the less we like to operate in space. Seems pretty obvious. Where we are the all White HS teams do real well vs the inner-city teams. Millard North/Millard West dominate the inner-city teams with power running and option games. My point exactly.. the spread is great when you can get your athletes in space.. but we have no athletes.. so we are just spinning our wheels.. Its not the all white that is really killing us.. its the not many all white kids.. I have seen some GREAT all white teams.. there are plenty of good white athletes out there.. but.. with only 65 to pick from.. not a great chance of having a lot of good athletes.. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 17, 2007 20:07:14 GMT -6
eickst---before you start saying "shame on you" you should read a bit more thoroughly. Airraider clearly stated he was at ANOTHER school last year.
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Post by airraider on Oct 17, 2007 20:09:08 GMT -6
0-7 so what are you doing now to develop the QBs & WR for next year? I mean, I like the gadget stuff you guys do, but can they work your HALO / TIGER stuff enough times to maaaaaybe something will click for them by the time the season ends (that you can build off of for next year)? I mean, 0-7, what does it matter? Its not like you guys are losing any worse than the previous seasons, and you can still park your truck in the lot without it being on cinders by the end of practice. Play every kid you can get your hand on (like I'm sure you're doing) , but I'd agree with above....invest in defense for now. Give your guys another year, this is probably a culture shock for them and the community. Then, come February, do the "Ole Blue" Drill. We are throwing and catching ALOT of footballs.. working on routes.. mechanics.. the little things.. our biggest problem is our line is not very good.. SLOW feet.. and they usually end up facing a heavy dose of pressure.. and very fast linemen.. Most teams we have played have lined up running back type kids on the line and just left our slow fat kids standing in concrete.. If.. we had athletes like I did last year.. then come on with it.. bring the blitz.. and Greg Booker would have a quick TD.. but now.. they can afford to play us man to man and bring the funk.. these kids arent going to make people look stupid on the fade.. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 17, 2007 20:26:31 GMT -6
Airraider--just an observation. You seem stuck on last year. As long as you are looking at what you DON'T have, you are never going to see what you DO have.
I think this is the inherent flaw in spread. You need kids to make plays. You ask one kid to manage the game.
Now chances are you would be 0-7 if you were running anything else too. Bad football players don't win games, regardless of scheme. But I do think the spread tends to make bad football teams seem worse, because the lasting impression is incomplete passes, bad passes for INT's, and the qb running for his life.
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Post by airraider on Oct 17, 2007 20:53:01 GMT -6
Airraider--just an observation. You seem stuck on last year. As long as you are looking at what you DON'T have, you are never going to see what you DO have. I think this is the inherent flaw in spread. You need kids to make plays. You ask one kid to manage the game. Now chances are you would be 0-7 if you were running anything else too. Bad football players don't win games, regardless of scheme. But I do think the spread tends to make bad football teams seem worse, because the lasting impression is incomplete passes, bad passes for INT's, and the qb running for his life. Another thing I have noticed it doing is creating lopsided losses for us. With an emphasis on throwing the ball, the clock does not run much.. and we do not move the ball as much as I would like.. so the other team has more possessions than they might if we were able to run the ball more. Now dont get me wrong.. I came into this mixing my style with the HC's style.. we TRIED to run the ball.. but did not have a whole lot of success.. No TRUE RBs on the team.. So we had a little success throwing the ball.. and then got into the meat of our schedule and starting facing all of these bigger athletes who could just lock down our kids.. |
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Post by brophy on Oct 17, 2007 21:31:43 GMT -6
I dunno.
I got a chance to see the team in question early in the season, and if there weren't more exciting things to do besides get lost in podunk counties, I'd probably check out another game. However, what I DID see, was players executing a sound scheme and just getting hammered.
What I mean is (without sounding like a 'spread' apologist), you could SEE there was a good formation & play called for the D&D that clearly would've put the defense in a precarious situation (nothing blind about play call / scheme), but players moving / reacting at 1/2 the speed of their opponent...which was kind of weird.
Running dive, power, trap, iso, zone, whatever....I honestly don't think it would've mattered a whole heckuva a lot of difference because the sandbags weren't going to stop the tidal wave of opposition.
If the program was poised to win a bunch of games (with great athletes) you probably wouldn't have been hired there.
Welcome to "Program Building", this is why MOST of the 'football work' is done in the months of December - April in the weight room.
Meaning, DON'T WASTE any time. INVEST in the future with every practice and every game. Sure, you aim to win each game on the schedule, but temper the "at-all-costs" mentality with the acid test of "What is Best For The Program" mantra. If you guys could turn it around in one season, then likely anyone could have done it. If you aren't there, fake it 'till you make it - take baby steps toward the future. Shoot, you guys cleared the biggest hurdle by getting as many kids interested in the program like you did. Now, use the off-season as a time to take those numbers and breathe life into a dead weight room.
Why do I mention any of this? Not because you don't already know it, but because you are a good coach, and as coaches we all live from game-to-game --- we're only good as our last game, and when we get in a slump we take it personal and look for SOMETHING to get us out. Desperation can get us to lose sight of what is really important. Although its nice, we can't justify our existence off of W/L counts. Even though it isn't comfortable, take your lumps now, but prepare for the next week / next season.....otherwise it will be Groundhog Day, repeating "emergency-fix" season after "emergency fix" season, with a triage mentality that never really builds anything and just spins its wheels. BUILD SOMETHING>
The biggest thing, IMO, is with the DEFENSE.
The defense is a doormat to the endzone, and there are things you guys do on THAT side of the ball that put the kids in jeopardy (out scheming their athleticism).
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Post by eickst on Oct 17, 2007 21:37:33 GMT -6
eickst---before you start saying "shame on you" you should read a bit more thoroughly. Airraider clearly stated he was at ANOTHER school last year. I was pretty sure I said IF they were in his program. IF. |
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Post by CVBears on Oct 17, 2007 21:49:33 GMT -6
I'm not sure what race has to do with anything here.
But, anyway, other than leaving more time on the clock with a pass now and again, how is a spread philosophy responsible for lopsided victories? A completed pass for four yards to a stud athlete or a complete chump is still a four yard gain any way you slice it up.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Oct 17, 2007 22:10:11 GMT -6
Coach, Would I get my head chopped off here if I suggested that you considered using some Doublewing concepts? It is the best offense for an underdog team. I also run alot of passing formations also, having the #1 QB in our county. I love the no splits for protecting my QB and I love to run the Superpower play. Being in Florida you know that everyone here is spread offense shotgun teams whether they should be or not. The worst thing I see done with this particular idea is huge linesplits with linemen that cannot handle being placed on an island. But that's how people do things down here. Anyway, I await the hate mail,  OJW |
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Post by saintrad on Oct 17, 2007 23:10:08 GMT -6
sometimes coach when their Xs are bigger than your Os there isnt much you can do other than try to get small victories (x number of first downs, x number of yards, etc.) as you build toward next season. You stated that you had no athletes...then to quote Hank Shram "make some". Maybe the best players arent in the proper positions, it could be as much as the coaches on the "blinded" thread are talking about. Find who does the job the best not who you like the best. It is also about a team having to learn to trust each other, the staff, and the scheme as well as learning how to win. I am facing a similar problem here in AZ with a team that changed conferences just to become a winning team in record, but they are still learning how to be a winning team as players. I do feel your pain coach.
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Post by coachmoore42 on Oct 18, 2007 1:00:01 GMT -6
My fastest player has been clocked at a 4.95 and weights all of 165lbs. You are in a tough spot. I had an eighth grader run a 4.9 last summer. His brother will be the fourth or fifth WR taken in this April's draft though, so we were blessed. I like the option idea. You don't have to be big or fast, just smart. Big and fast obviously helps, but it's not necessary to move the ball with the option. Fight through this season, however bad it may get, and keep thinking about how good it will be when you've had longer to work with these guys. |
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Post by gunandrun on Oct 18, 2007 6:07:09 GMT -6
Airraider we are where you are at right now. We figured over the winter that had a decent amount of athletes with good speed and body control. Come fall several kids do not show up and three off our best skilled kids go down with season ending injuries. However, we stuck to the plan. Sadly, due to smaller numbers, we could not two-platoon as we did the previous year. Needless to say- the spread made the lopsided games longer and when things go wrong in the spread they look worse than they actually are. Believe it or not our major problem was snaps in the gun. Well now were are running our base runs (option) and passes from under center. Building confidence for next year. Option/run and shoot football is our future. Althought I have a passion for five wide, I feel we really need to have great athletes or the ability to two platoon to get the reps needed to be great at the empty backfield offense without better athletes. The run and shoot satisfy our kids and my desire to throw the FB and the option game will help control clock.
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Post by coachweav88 on Oct 18, 2007 6:35:01 GMT -6
Coach,
I'm no expert or anything, but I'd try to incorporate more of a running attack into your spread if you don't have the receivers.
I run the scout team at a very small school (250 kids total), so I don't have a lot of athletes to work with at practice either. One thing we've had success with in practice is the rocket sweep. Especially if they want to go man to man on your receivers. This play can be run from the shotgun, is not that hard to install, and will help attack that man coverage on the perimeter. It also sets up your inside running game. Friday, we are playing a team that runs the rocket. Yesterday after we had success on that a few times, we started hammering our defense with an iso. our linemen arent' that good and we were able to move the ball on our defense.
We've also had success running the option once again because it's hard to defend while running man coverage. and our defense is primarily a man team.
What I suggest is not to scrap your whole offense, but add some wrinkles like these (both can be incorporated into the spread) and maybe take out some of your less effective passing plays and rep the crap out of your best ones. That might help to combat the man coverage.
just some thoughts.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 18, 2007 6:40:13 GMT -6
stay the course, you believe in the spread or you dont.
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Post by davecisar on Oct 18, 2007 6:52:30 GMT -6
Im not a HS coach, But if you have no athletes, or your athletes are far slower and less athletic than the competition, not sure how putting them in space does you much good. The faster and more athletic we are the more we like to operate in space, The less athletic and fast we are the less we like to operate in space. Seems pretty obvious. Where we are the all White HS teams do real well vs the inner-city teams. Millard North/Millard West dominate the inner-city teams with power running and option games. My point exactly.. the spread is great when you can get your athletes in space.. but we have no athletes.. so we are just spinning our wheels.. Its not the all white that is really killing us.. its the not many all white kids.. I have seen some GREAT all white teams.. there are plenty of good white athletes out there.. but.. with only 65 to pick from.. not a great chance of having a lot of good athletes.. FYI I like to learn from people that have been in nearly my exact situation and succeeded. Simplest and quickest way to solve many problems. They have made a bunch of mistakes they can help make sure you dont make and can tell you what does work. If you look at Omaha South High School my former school and a school about 1/4 of my youth kids feed into: School of over 1700 kids, largest class. They compete with some schools that have 2600 kids. High Hispanic population, very low numbers, Suiting up just 25-26 on varsity, 13-14-15 on frosh team, less than 60 in program. I have seen frosh games where the other team suited 73 kids. Ive seen varsity games where the other team suited 110! There are programs they compete with that have over 250 kids in their program. Very little speed and with those numbers of course no size either. Former coach Jay Ball ran a veer offense, he had to. They would consistently win 3-5 games and beat some giants like Jesuit Prep. They were in most games and rarely got beat by 30-40+. New coach, new prioriities in last two years they have won one game and are getting blown out every week by 30-40-50. Geez I guess coaching and scheme may matter. Good news is everyone recognized the great job Jay was doing winning 3-5 games every year with no numbers, size or talent and he got the coveted Central High job and in his second year they are now 7-1 and ranked 3rd. BTW coach Ball is running Spread and I formation stuff at his new school because according to him " I have the players to run it". RIght from his mouth, could probably call him at Central High in Omaha and he would tell you the same thing and how he did it, |
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Post by flexspread on Oct 18, 2007 6:52:50 GMT -6
Coach, I'm going to disagree with some of the coaches on this board. I don't think you should stop spreading the ball out because the spread is about more than just passing the ball, it is about spreading the defense out. Put your best playmaker, the one who you think will do whatever he is capable of in order to make a play, and stick him at QB. Put your next best playmaker at the TB. Still spread the Defense out but run a lot of read and option plays, throw some quick screens and some convoy screens and focus on first downs insted of touchdowns. With your athletes, fade will not be there and all you are doing is hurting your team's confidence by running it, but against anything other than man coverage, a quick screen will be there. Against man coverage, a convoy screen will be there (it doesn't sound like your line blocks most of the time so the D should buy it). A true AirRaid may not be the best option but I believe that spread can work. If you have a guy out there, someone HAS to cover them, even if you know that this kid is the worst athlete in the state and the ball will never go to him, the defense WILL account for him.
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Post by casec11 on Oct 18, 2007 7:01:12 GMT -6
Im not in the position to give advice, but I do have a question, it may not be to for this thread, but the thread is what made me come up with it.
-If you had a spread team that wanted to throw(stay in the phylosopy he is building), even though they had no atheletes, what routes or what part of the system would you change to help the team be successfull in moving the chains, and running the clock? Airraider mentioned quick passing and Screens. Would the run and shoot type principles of "He near, me far He in,me out" (not sure if I got that right) help even the difference in athletic ability through reading like the veer does on the run?
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Post by coachweav88 on Oct 18, 2007 7:09:32 GMT -6
I don't know if you've already thought of this,
but if you are getting manned up on the outsides, compress your formations (bunch, or something like that) and run a lot of picks or rubs (e.g. mesh). They'd have a hard time pressing you that way. Do you have enough time to throw these?
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Post by stone65 on Oct 18, 2007 7:12:34 GMT -6
I think that you have to adjust to the personnel you have. You don't have to throw the spread stuff away, but use the stuff you can be successful with, and put in some formations plays that can help those guys use what they have. Heck, since they ran the wing-t, use some of those plays. Also use shifts and motions to your advantage.
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Post by Coach Huey on Oct 18, 2007 7:26:17 GMT -6
don't "rob peter to pay paul" ...
weather the storm ...
keep building & preparing the kids to function within the system ...
play calls to help with the present (modified or 'watered down' schemes) ...
DON'T sell out wholesale to something completely new ... UNLESS that is what you are going to do "forever" at that school ---- otherwise, you are "robbing" future teams in an effort to go 3-7 this year (and, more than likely, next year's team will be different makeup so then what?)
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Post by spartancoach on Oct 18, 2007 7:43:09 GMT -6
Raider:
We are in a similar situation, but our QB and RB are fairly athletic(and young - QB a soph and RB a Jr). While still running the air raid concepts (we can complete a decently high percentage sticking to mesh, sprint out flood, stick, hitch and bubble), we are running more spread option stuff to "help" our big but, extremely weak, OL. We concentrate on zone read, midline and veer (with a little speed option sprinkled in). All allow us to double every DL back to LB, and a good "ride and read" by the QB has opened him up for some big runs. We simply game plan to run Speed at the weakest DE, Zone Read reading the most undisciplined DE, and both Veer and Midline as "check with me" calls - Veer at a 1 and Midline at a 3. So far we are doing a decent job masking the fact that we are young, weak and slow.
Maybe a little spread option running game might help loosen things up a bit.
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