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Post by spos21ram on Feb 5, 2008 13:26:38 GMT -6
With all the talk about who is the best NFL team ever....does anyone else but me think that even the 2007 Miami Dolphins would blow any team out from the 60's and 70's? If you look at the rosters of those teams the size difference alone is massive.
The game is just totally difference now. When comparing teams, dynasty's, whatever, I think you need to put it in context of their own generation and time period.
I do however give the older generation the toughness factor. Football players have to be tough and pain resistant but those players from the past are warriors.
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Post by carson101 on Feb 5, 2008 13:47:14 GMT -6
I agree the warriors of the past surly didn't give a squat about pain, if I was a betting guy I say the way football was played back then vs. now the good ol' guys would stomp the crud out of these over paid panzies....lol....sorry for the pun....Football was real back then.
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Post by briangilbert on Feb 5, 2008 13:50:39 GMT -6
The teams of the old days if they used their "OLD" schemes would get destroyed. But, if you took those teams despite their size and gave them some of the schemes we see today. I bet it would be a lot closer then people think.
The 85 Bears defense despite their lack of size would have enough speed to give anyone fits.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 5, 2008 14:12:14 GMT -6
If you took the same players from years ago and put them in the weight room from the time they were 7th grade. And took the players and put them on a nurtition and supplement program. And put them on a speed development program. And took the players and paid them millions of dollars (incentive). And took the players and gave them the same technology (video, equipment, rehab, surgery, etc.). And incresed their rosters so they could have more specialists (3rd down back, pass rusher, nickel and dime back, kick returner, etc.).
And took the coaches and gave them the same technology (video, internet, clinics). And updated their knowledge with the new schemes. And took the coaches and paid them millions.
And took the scouts and gave them technology and scouting services and combines (not so sure how important they are) so that they didn't miss on players.
Then the teams from old would be just as good as now.
But since they didn't have those advantages - they would probably get beat by an average team now.
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Post by thunder17 on Feb 5, 2008 14:18:49 GMT -6
But since they didn't have those advantages - they would probably get beat by an average team now. Average team yes. Dolphins? Not so sure. They still would have been gutted by the run. Jim Brown probably would have had the first 1,000 yard game.  Our draft (fan of the fish  ) better consist of O and D linemen.
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Post by coachbdud on Feb 5, 2008 23:58:39 GMT -6
the "old" teams wouldnt stand a chance.
not taking anything away form them, but human beings as a species are always evolving and getting better, players today are much bigger, faster, and stronger. The athletes are being trained harder and younger than ever before.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 6, 2008 0:15:17 GMT -6
I disagree. Things were the way they were because of who and what they played against. The game has evolved over the years obviously but offense's have evolved based on what defenses did to defend them at that time. Once the offense evolved, the defense then evolved to stop that style of offense and so on. Just as it was then, it is now. Players are drafted based on their attributes and the type of player the team needs to fill a particular role based on how they do things. Players now are much better athletes, but I think players then were much better football players. Back in the 70's Tony Dorsett was as close to Reggie Bush as it got, but Bush isn't being hit by players like Butkus, Lambert, Lott, Tatum or the likes either. I don't think today's players could compete physically with the elder era players. I saw the Patriots and all kinds of teams having problems with Brandon Jabobs...you really think they could have handled Czonka, Ironhead, Campbell? No chance. Today's LBs (and Dlinemen) are much smaller and much faster than those of yester year, why? Because defense today is based almost soley on speed, because the rules of the game now require Linebackers who can run and cover since DBs can no longer body up a wideout and disrupt the passing game that way. I also think it depends on the rule structure they play under. Playing under the rules of the 70's...before the 5 yard rule, I don't think today's receivers would hold up. For some reason I just can't see Marvin Harrison or Randy Moss running that quick slant into the Tatum secondary or getting off of Mel Blount press coverage. Hell, they catch and fall now so they don't get hit. I don't suppose many would be eager to head in there with Ronnie Lott chillin out on their hash. When the NFL took the physicality off the ball away from the secondary the game changed immensely and I think it changed for the worse. Toss in the "defense-less receiver" rule and the intentional grounding rules and the 6 inch strip around the midsection where defensive players are actually allowed to contact the QB and the game is completely different. In summation, I don't think you can say either way, the game is too different now. Play them under college rules and I think modern day players may have some issues and we're going to have to have a rotation going to keep the training staff fresh. I just can't see today's players matching the physicality of the good old days. (although I would pay money to see LT, Lambert, Dent, or Bednarik blind side Peyton Manning). and I know the arguement can be made "well, yea but those guys have to catch these guys"...you know as well as I do, a dump truck only has to catch that Porche once. and just to be clear, the schemes of today are not that different than years past. The most common running formation is still the Pro-I...hence the name "Pro". And the modern day "Tampa 2" coverage was initially ran by the 70's Steelers while Dungy was playing for the Steelers. sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2271514Wow...usually your posts make sense, and are "right on". In this case, I will chalk it up to too much Mardi Gras festivities. Jim Brown, Czonka, Campbell...all were power runners who were as big if not bigger than their LB'S, and only 15 -20 lbs smaller than the lineman. The current defensive lineman are 5-15 lbs heavier than the OL in that era, and they run as fast as the RB's did. LT (#1) was an amazing football player, HOWEVER he did benefit from being the first OLB to be asked to do what he did. The NFL did not have a plan for him. I mean, Pre 1980 or so, you still had players working other jobs in the offseason to support themselves. Do you really think any of those guys could even compete with todays players? I guess Bob Cousy and Hondo would still dominate the NBA? |
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tedseay
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Post by tedseay on Feb 6, 2008 6:06:38 GMT -6
and just to be clear, the schemes of today are not that different than years past...And the modern day "Tampa 2" coverage was initially ran by the 70's Steelers while Dungy was playing for the Steelers. sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2271514Nope. Vanilla C2 dates back even further than the article indicates -- to Arnsparger's Dolphins in the early 70's. But the "Tampa 2" innovation of dropping the Mike backer to the deep middle (as one reaction to the perceived C2 weakness there) is a modern innovation. Part of the cycle of thesis/antithesis/synthesis that feeds this great game of ours... |
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 6, 2008 8:23:05 GMT -6
Just look at the raw physics involved here...
Avg Player (including skills and linemen) of "yesteryear 1970"- [no height listed] 220 lbs
Avg Player (including skills and linemen) of today- 6' 1.5" 245lbs
Men are getting faster every year across the board.
F=M x A
Increase either Mass or acceleration and force is greater...increase both and you have a huge difference in force!
More force = bigger hits, faster men, stronger arms, jumping higher...
Nick Saban said this :"They have weight classes in boxing for a reason. The heavyweights don't fight the lightweights... What's the reason for that? Because if a big guy is just as good as a little guy, the little guy doesn't have much of a chance."
These guys today are as skilled if not more skilled than the players of old- and they're bigger and faster. Therefore, an a$$whooping would occur in my opinion.
Now toughness- those crazy bastards played without face masks back in the day- that's tough!
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Post by carson101 on Feb 7, 2008 1:20:38 GMT -6
Ok,Ok I get it so yeah,yeah, yeah The things of yesteryear are a fad and comparing todays Technologies,Advancements in Medicine,and over all scheme of things I conceed my last post I guess I like the simple old style smack the Snikies out of guys and hit'em till they bleed on the field than I do the new I am the show type players of today...doesn't say that our athletes more than likely,coaches included would out match the old guy I am suprised how far football has evolved just in the 25 yrs that I have been involved in FB, but that is why we are coaches and that is why we load up this site and share our opionions and the only guys we can thank for that arte our mod's for this site so we coaches can feel each others ideas and tactics... so my hats to all the coaches here, keep doing what your doing after all some of those very players we are speaking about were coached by coaches just like us.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
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Post by tedseay on Feb 7, 2008 5:52:28 GMT -6
I didn't write the article, perhaps you should call ESPN and straighten them and Dungy out. No need to get snippy -- I was just pointing out that your characterization of what the 70's Steelers ran (as Tampa 2) was inaccurate... |
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Post by phantom on Feb 7, 2008 7:31:33 GMT -6
No need to get snippy -- I was just pointing out that your characterization of what the 70's Steelers ran (as Tampa 2) was inaccurate... and I was merely pointing out that the man credited...for whom TAMPA 2 is named, clearly stated in his own words: The roots of the Tampa 2 system actually are in the Steel Curtain days of Pittsburgh football. Tony Dungy has been quoted to say “My philosophy is really out of the 1975 Pittsburgh Steelers playbook,” said Dungy during media interviews while at Super Bowl XLI. “That is why I have to laugh when I hear 'Tampa 2'. Chuck Noll and Bud Carson — that is where it came from, I changed very little.”but you seem to know different. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_2I have to go with DC on this one. I remember Jack Lambert picking that Rams's pass off about 30 yards downfield. |
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Post by phantom on Feb 7, 2008 7:42:20 GMT -6
With all the talk about who is the best NFL team ever....does anyone else but me think that even the 2007 Miami Dolphins would blow any team out from the 60's and 70's? If you look at the rosters of those teams the size difference alone is massive. The game is just totally difference now. When comparing teams, dynasty's, whatever, I think you need to put it in context of their own generation and time period. I do however give the older generation the toughness factor. Football players have to be tough and pain resistant but those players from the past are warriors. I've had this discussion a number of times and I feel strongly about it. IMO, if 1962 Packers stepped into a time tunnel and immediately played a modern team they'd get crushed. They had 230 lb. OL. If the 1962 Packers had the advantages of weight training, nutrition and supplements, year-round training, and updated coaching they'd be just fine. I've read here that the old guys were too slow. It's obvious that players are bigger today. Where's the evidence that speed has increased significantly? |
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tedseay
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Post by tedseay on Feb 8, 2008 10:38:23 GMT -6
...as does wikipedia, which you so kindly linked: Dungy first learned the Cover 2 while playing for the Steelers in the late 70s and eventually developed this new form of the Cover 2 in Tampa. Shared principles with the mid-70's Steelers stuff? Certainly. Identical execution? Not even close. What began under Carson evolved into something new under Dungy, however modest he may be. IMO, of course. Your mileage may differ. |
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Post by poweriguy on Feb 8, 2008 10:50:33 GMT -6
Now, if you would put some of today's players or teams, into riddell suspension helmets, 70 era shoulder pads, single or double bar face masks, do you think todays athletes would play as aggressively as yesteryear's players?
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tedseay
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Post by tedseay on Feb 8, 2008 11:00:39 GMT -6
I have to go with DC on this one. I remember Jack Lambert picking that Rams's pass off about 30 yards downfield. ...and Lambert relentlessly pursuing the ball for 30 yards surprises you why? ;D  ;D Seriously, I understand that Carson dropped the Mike backer deep back in the mid-70's...but if you're telling me that all Dungy did was take the exact same scheme and paste it into his 90's defenses in Tampa Bay without any significant changes, I'm sorry, I'm not buying. To me, "Tampa 2" is both significant and appropriate, however modest Dungy himself may be... |
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Post by tye2021 on Feb 8, 2008 17:25:32 GMT -6
In my opinion there is only one FAIR way to compare yesterday's players to today's players. You have to put them both on a level palying field. The only way to do that is to put today's players in the same era as the yesteryday's players. Or to put those players in the today's era.
What that means is if yesterday's players where playing today, they would be training the same way today's players train. If thats the case how do the they fair against todays players?
Now lets look at the other way. If you put todays players into the past era, with their training methods or lack there of from that era. How do they fair?
How many of today's players could have made a team from that era?
How many of yesterday's players would make a team today?
But i don't care what anyone says. Most of today's WRs CANNOT play against those DBs under the old rules. I don't care how much faster they are. It was a physical game back then and very few of todays WRs could handle it!
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Our draft (fan of the fish 
) better consist of O and D linemen.
;D