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Post by lochness on Nov 20, 2007 7:41:05 GMT -6
I was HOPING someone would take the bait... What about him? He took an ENORMOUS paycut to go to NE. Has he been a distraction this year? Has his ego or any of his actions caused problems in the locker room? All he has done is keep his mouth shut and performed at what will ultimately be record levels. The reason that NE can get away with bringing in a guy like Moss is because they have so many other quality, tough, hard-nosed professionals in that lockerroom who would NEVER let the ego and antics of one guy derail their quest to be the best. Think about...guys like Vrabel, Colvin, Bruschi, Light, Brady, Harrison, Koppen, Watson, Seau, Samuel, Thomas...those guys aren't just great football players. They are first-class, bona-fide Alpha Males...No way a guy like Moss comes in and steps out of line with those guys around! I think the problem with a post like this is some of you guys are biased based on your fan status of the team who is the topic at hand. I am not a big NFL fan.. I am a Niner fan.. but not much in the last several years to watch for.. But I think you let your emotions as a fan get in the way of your ability to see if for what it is.. With all due respect, the only one who seems "biased" here seems to be you. How can you argue with what the Patriots have done? The way they have built their organization is a model that is studied by BUSINESSES, not just other NFL teams. Bellichick, Pioli, and Kraft are LEADERS first and great football people second. That team is the height of class and professionalism. You talk about Randy Moss?? The guy goes to NE, is having a record year, never says a word, and has nothing but positives to say in the media and in the locker room. Of course, that's easy when you're winning, right? Well, what about all the ego showboat crap?? NON-existant...and that kind of stuff is NOT so easy to beat down when you're winning. What about Corey Dillon?? The guy was a problem child his whole career. He goes to NE, keeps his mouth shut, stays positive, and does a great job not just on the field but off the field too...and mentors young RB's in the system. There is a reason why they are the undisputed "team of the decade" and the best organization in sports right now...and it AIN'T because of "spygate" and it ain't because they score a lot of points. I'm tired of hearing all the crying from the media and from other people about "running up the score..." what a load of crap! This isn't Pop Warner football or HS ball...it's the frigging NFL! Those guys are all paid millions of dollars to win. The defenders that are getting destroyed on the other teams are paid to keep people out of the endzone! There's no room for mercy or weakness in that league. There's no room for it in Belichick's model of success. You can't let down for an instant...not at practice, not in front of the press, and certainly not on gameday. It's THUNDERDOME!! The Patriots spent YEARS on the bottom. Think back to the Rod Rust and Richard MacPhearson years. God almighty! What you're looking at is modern history. Nobody wants to admit that the "greats" (Lombardi, '72 Dolphins, etc.) are being "out-greated" by a modern team and coach. I hate to say it, because I absolutely love Brett Favre and the Pack, but there is not a single NFC team that has a shot at beating NE in a SuperBowl should they get there. NE is too well coached, too well disciplined, too driven to excellence to lose if they get to that stage.
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Post by airraider on Nov 20, 2007 8:15:28 GMT -6
What history are we witnessing? What is so great about what they are doing? They are doing nothing that the Niners in the 80's and the Cowboys in the 90's didnt do. Of course they didnt have free agency back then, but what is better? Develop the people you have, or go get new ones that might be a little better than what you had? You're joking, right? The Patriots are on pace to shatter every significant offensive record. As far as free agency, that's a two-way street. Players leave a team just as easily as they come. So? How many other teams over the years could have broken records if that was important to them? To some teams, the aspect of winning surpasses the breaking of records.
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Post by airraider on Nov 20, 2007 8:20:14 GMT -6
I think the problem with a post like this is some of you guys are biased based on your fan status of the team who is the topic at hand. I am not a big NFL fan.. I am a Niner fan.. but not much in the last several years to watch for.. But I think you let your emotions as a fan get in the way of your ability to see if for what it is.. With all due respect, the only one who seems "biased" here seems to be you. How can you argue with what the Patriots have done? The way they have built their organization is a model that is studied by BUSINESSES, not just other NFL teams. Bellichick, Pioli, and Kraft are LEADERS first and great football people second. That team is the height of class and professionalism. You talk about Randy Moss?? The guy goes to NE, is having a record year, never says a word, and has nothing but positives to say in the media and in the locker room. Of course, that's easy when you're winning, right? Well, what about all the ego showboat crap?? NON-existant...and that kind of stuff is NOT so easy to beat down when you're winning. What about Corey Dillon?? The guy was a problem child his whole career. He goes to NE, keeps his mouth shut, stays positive, and does a great job not just on the field but off the field too...and mentors young RB's in the system. There is a reason why they are the undisputed "team of the decade" and the best organization in sports right now...and it AIN'T because of "spygate" and it ain't because they score a lot of points. I'm tired of hearing all the crying from the media and from other people about "running up the score..." what a load of crap! This isn't Pop Warner football or HS ball...it's the frigging NFL! Those guys are all paid millions of dollars to win. The defenders that are getting destroyed on the other teams are paid to keep people out of the endzone! There's no room for mercy or weakness in that league. There's no room for it in Belichick's model of success. You can't let down for an instant...not at practice, not in front of the press, and certainly not on gameday. It's THUNDERDOME!! The Patriots spent YEARS on the bottom. Think back to the Rod Rust and Richard MacPhearson years. God almighty! What you're looking at is modern history. Nobody wants to admit that the "greats" (Lombardi, '72 Dolphins, etc.) are being "out-greated" by a modern team and coach. I hate to say it, because I absolutely love Brett Favre and the Pack, but there is not a single NFC team that has a shot at beating NE in a SuperBowl should they get there. NE is too well coached, too well disciplined, too driven to excellence to lose if they get to that stage. I have no reason to be biased. I rarely even watch the NFL. Its not like I am a Colts fan or anything. I just do not agree that these guys are doing anything unconventional. Also, I couldnt care less about them running up the score.. its not about that.. but do not come on here bragging that they are about to break this and break that when others in history "could" have done the same thing.. Those Mike Martz teams.. do you think he always kept his starters in until the final whistle? No, but if he did they might have scored 900 points.. would you have been so smitten about them? And before you say it.. I realize that the Patriots have not kept their starters in all game evergame.. I was just trying to make a point.
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Post by airraider on Nov 20, 2007 8:22:29 GMT -6
airraider has a point.....to a point Now Dallas was more of a talent-dominanted squad, but San Fran (& Bill Walsh) kind of experienced the same thing. They created a business model of organization geared toward excellence from the top to the bottom. Different Coordinators (heck even different Head Coaches!!), different QBs, different receivers, different defenses.................they kept churning out dominant performances. However, I see that as no slight on New England. I think it is remarkable that they are able to do what they are doing given the circumstances of the parity-driven NFL (CBA/Cap/Player Character) and what they are doing is so RARE these days (anti-hype). I think what I appreciate the most about NE is their lack of loud-mouthed jabberjaws from the skill positions. Just guys that are focussed not on the NOW but more on their legacy toward the GAME (=professionalism) Now, by the time Sunday rolls around, I am usually not in th emood to watch prima-donna performances and pomp-laden commercial-driven dogma from the NFL, (in other words, I'm not a 'fan') but I do appreciate their methodical quick-passing game. I think I am just anti-NFL more than anything. And to see people praising them over how great their coaching is.. well.. pay me millions of dollars to do what I do.. and I am sure I would put every drop of blood, sweat, and tears into it too..
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Post by lochness on Nov 20, 2007 8:24:12 GMT -6
If you don't care...then why do you bother to make the arguments?
That's contradictory.
So what if people like the Pats? So what if they don't? What difference does it make? It's comparing different teams from different eras functioning under different conditions.
The Pats are going to be right up there with the best of all time, no matter what happens at the end of this season. That's not an argument, that's a fact.
I don't see where else this discussion can go.
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Post by airraider on Nov 20, 2007 8:33:57 GMT -6
If you don't care...then why do you bother to make the arguments? That's contradictory. So what if people like the Pats? So what if they don't? What difference does it make? It's comparing different teams from different eras functioning under different conditions. The Pats are going to be right up there with the best of all time, no matter what happens at the end of this season. That's not an argument, that's a fact. I don't see where else this discussion can go. I wasnt making "that" argument. I wasnt saying, well they are classless for running up the score. These other teams make millions of dollars to do what they do, who cares about sparing their feelings? I just do not see why they would risk injury to key players late in a game in order to "make a point" or to break records. Records are not that important. Winning however, is.. so why risk the ability to win next week to score 50 this week? And then, why should we go fanatic over that?
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Post by airraider on Nov 20, 2007 8:51:11 GMT -6
an err or this discussion is the comparison of feats to determine "worth"
"Barry Sanders is a better running back than Jim Brown"
THAT, is the folly of "fans"
Are the Patriots doing anything revolutionary? No.......but neither is ANYONE in football today. Maybe it is more of an indictment against our sports culture, where doing the "right thing" is 'genius'.
Where I will attempt to redirect the discussion for COACHES is whether they win or lose.....the coaching lineage of Bill Belichick, who is the son of an accomplished coach. What can WE, as coaches, gather from his career (life)?
A dissolution of marriage.......decades of battling the media........labelled a "loser", labelled a "winner".............called an 'idiot', then a 'genius'........
MY point is, 10, maybe 20 years....Bellichick is gone........he's dead. What can be learned (in application to our own lives or careers) from his experiences.
Both in how he survived and "conquered" on the field and off, as well as how he INTERPRETS THE GAME in his "prime" seniority. Holy crap!! Brophy just gave the man 10 years to live!! If he dies soon.. I am BLAMING YOU!!!!
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Post by airraider on Nov 20, 2007 8:57:11 GMT -6
he's an old man, y'know, like "50" or so..... haha.. so does that mean in 20 or 30 years you will die?? Because you are only 10 or so years from being an old man.. haha.. arent you 40?
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Post by lochness on Nov 20, 2007 9:13:12 GMT -6
please send me a New England playbook to Coachsexyback@yahoo.com thanx That pretty much says it all, gentlemen!
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 20, 2007 10:33:07 GMT -6
What history are we witnessing? What is so great about what they are doing? They are doing nothing that the Niners in the 80's and the Cowboys in the 90's didnt do. Of course they didnt have free agency back then, but what is better? Develop the people you have, or go get new ones that might be a little better than what you had? I respectfully disagree with you here. Here's what I humbly see as the difference in 2007/2008 as opposed to the 80s or 90s. In the 80s or 90s you won on a few BIG IDEAS. Dallas outmaneuvered people in the trades and on draft day. They had a new speed philosophy on D, and they ran the zone schemes on O with Norv Turner, and had some big weapons. The WCO offense we know all about, and in their super bowl years they stockpiled defensive talent to go with their offensive talent (Ronnie Lott, Deion, etc). Now, it's not that nobody is doing anything special or fancy. Sure you're not seeing a lot of jet sweep (and Ted might disagree with me here) but in terms of running schemes and passing schemes, almost every pro team runs ALL of what all your favorite college teams do and more. And they have to. The NFL is a 24/7 kind of place. So what is Belichick doing better than everyone else? I think the filming signals was the dark side of what he has been doing right. And that is the extreme attention to detail. We all know Bill Walsh's real insight was not really just the passing schemes (which Paul Brown and Sid Gillman really did the heavy lifting) but the method of preparation, and the meticulousness. Belichick has gone above and beyond to do the little things that other coaches are unwilling to do or afraid to do or simply too stupid to do. He goes for it a lot on 4th and shorts. Why? Because the numbers say it is of better positive value, and he coached his players not to buy into the momentum B.S. announcers spew. And when he goes for it what does he do? He runs FB dives and QB sneaks. At once he is both the flashiest and the unflashiest. Why does he do this? Why doesn't he go for it and run bootlegs and passes and things like that? Because he's crunched the numbers and he knows what he is doing. He's focused on the hidden yardage, the return game, the field position, etc. He's run the ball a predominant amount of the time to avoid turnovers and he's thrown the ball over and over to get chunks of yardage and explosive plays. His teams finish in the red zone. They avoid turnovers. The defense is not as good this year but they still create turnovers. So the fact that you can't pick out what they are doing right is exactly part of the plan. The NFL has gotten tough, the BIG IDEAS aren't there anymore with the internet and digital scouting and computers, etc. As Bill Parcells says, if the other guy is using computers and you're using legal pads, no matter how much time you put in, you're going to be outcoached and lose. It's similar in college. Who really thinks you gain some huge unforeseen advantage in college now by being "spread" when even Ohio St and Penn St have run the spread and the zone read and whatnot. Let me put it another way. In 1988 how many HS coaches were sitting around studying 6 or 7 of Bill Walsh's playbooks? Now how many of you have various NE playbooks? I know I do. You can't sustain the advantage with those big ideas anymore. As a final illustration, think of it like the stock market. In 1950 or whatnot you could make money and make smart moves in the stock market by ordering some financial statements and calling up your broker. Now you have thousands of people on the internet sitting at computers all day with huge research teams from big banks you've got to compete with. I'm pretty sure checking quotes in the newspaper or in the morning before work won't fly. So how do those people make money? They have to be creative and work on things at the margins, the ones others aren't thinking of. (I realize that my stock market explanation ignores the long-term investor, but think of that like working on blocking and tackling.) I hope that makes sense but to me, this is the lesson of Bill Belichick. If you're losing to him, and you don't know why, it's because he's thought of things you haven't.
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Post by phantom on Nov 20, 2007 11:20:15 GMT -6
airraider has a point.....to a point Now Dallas was more of a talent-dominanted squad, but San Fran (& Bill Walsh) kind of experienced the same thing. They created a business model of organization geared toward excellence from the top to the bottom. Different Coordinators (heck even different Head Coaches!!), different QBs, different receivers, different defenses.................they kept churning out dominant performances. However, I see that as no slight on New England. I think it is remarkable that they are able to do what they are doing given the circumstances of the parity-driven NFL (CBA/Cap/Player Character) and what they are doing is so RARE these days (anti-hype). I think what I appreciate the most about NE is their lack of loud-mouthed jabberjaws from the skill positions. Just guys that are focussed not on the NOW but more on their legacy toward the GAME (=professionalism) Now, by the time Sunday rolls around, I am usually not in th emood to watch prima-donna performances and pomp-laden commercial-driven dogma from the NFL, (in other words, I'm not a 'fan') but I do appreciate their methodical quick-passing game. I think I am just anti-NFL more than anything. And to see people praising them over how great their coaching is.. well.. pay me millions of dollars to do what I do.. and I am sure I would put every drop of blood, sweat, and tears into it too.. If you're not doing that now at whatever level your coaching, for whatever you're getting paid, you probably should quit.
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Post by airraider on Nov 20, 2007 11:27:40 GMT -6
I think I am just anti-NFL more than anything. And to see people praising them over how great their coaching is.. well.. pay me millions of dollars to do what I do.. and I am sure I would put every drop of blood, sweat, and tears into it too.. If you're not doing that now at whatever level your coaching, for whatever you're getting paid, you probably should quit. And here's to more words of wisdom from the "great" phantom! Thank you sir.. thank you..
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Post by phantom on Nov 20, 2007 11:47:13 GMT -6
Opinions vary.
I'm no Belichek or Pats fan but when I watched the second half I couldn't believe how easily they moved the ball. It was like a pro team playing a college.
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Post by wingt74 on Nov 20, 2007 11:51:09 GMT -6
Opinions vary. I'm no Belichek or Pats fan but when I watched the second half I couldn't believe how easily they moved the ball. It was like a pro team playing a college. It was like that in the first half too. First 6 possessions...6 TDs.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 20, 2007 12:17:56 GMT -6
He's focused on the hidden yardage, the return game, the field position, etc. He's run the ball a predominant amount of the time to avoid turnovers and he's thrown the ball over and over to get chunks of yardage and explosive plays. His teams finish in the red zone. They avoid turnovers. The defense is not as good this year but they still create turnovers. Chris: THANK YOU!!! Belichick has brought the "Moneyball" approach to the NFL...and we remember the subtitle of "Moneyball", right? [glow=red,2,300]The Art of Winning an Unfair Game[/glow]I'll bet you something else: that Belichick (or as I like to translate his name from Serbo-American slang, "White Girl") has read the paper that this Atlantic article is based on: www.theatlantic.com/doc/200605/football-sidebar
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Post by brophy on Nov 22, 2007 13:49:51 GMT -6
So much for the nice guy demeanor. When it's time to play football, Pats quarterback Tom Brady's intention is not to beat his opponent. He wants to destroy them.
Said Brady this week on WEEI radio in Boston: "We're not trying to win 42-28, we're trying to kill people, we're trying to blow them out if we can. You want to build momentum for each week, you don't want to be up, 42-7 or 35-7, and all of a sudden you look up and it's 35-21. We don't want to be part of that, you don't want to go into next week realizing that for the last 18 minutes of the game your team didn't play well, or didn't play up to its capabilities. You gave other teams momentum for the next time they play you, or you gave another team a reason not to be intimidated."
Meanwhile, New England cornerback Randall Gay recently sounded off regarding the perception that the team is running up the score.
"It kind of makes me mad when you hear somebody from the other team's defense going, 'They shouldn't have done that; that's disrespect.' Do we think it's disrespect when they went and picked up their checks for letting a team score 50 points on them? That should be disrespect; that you went to your owner and said, 'All right, pay me for that game I just played.'"
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