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Post by hoptions on Feb 28, 2007 19:13:05 GMT -6
I am an O-Line coach and I can not believe I am asking these questions since I have always been a “hit the crap out of each other” guy during practice. I feel that his has worn on us as the season moves on and would like to do more bag work this season, when not focusing only on the fundamentals. For instance in group work when my o linemen are trying to pretend to be d linemen or in "rap and tap" team. I am thinking of using arm shield type bags so that the D can still run around and do their thing.
There are two philosophies:
Hit so much in practice that when you get to the game the hitting is the easy part.
Or…
Go light in practice so that when the game comes you are dieing to hit someone.
Which do you believe in?
If you like bag work…
1) Do you like the arm shield bags on the LOS or the big heavy dummies?
2) What is the proper technique for holding a bag, both arm shield and heavies?
So what do you all think?
Hoptions
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Post by phantom on Feb 28, 2007 19:32:59 GMT -6
I don't believe in bags. I think that they get in the way of the aiming point and don't give a real feel for a block. I know that there are a lot of good coaches that like bags and that's fine. This is the way that we do it.
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Post by tog on Feb 28, 2007 19:39:46 GMT -6
I don't believe in bags. I think that they get in the way of the aiming point and don't give a real feel for a block. I know that there are a lot of good coaches that like bags and that's fine. This is the way that we do it. I agree also bags are unnatural and lead to more injuries as the defenders don't go full speed with bags when people don't go full speed, feet are planted, when feet are planted, knees and ankles get jacked up |
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Post by los on Mar 1, 2007 5:47:43 GMT -6
Philosophy wise hop, guess i'd have to choose the first pick and then Herschel Walkers quote there, lol! We worked all the linemen together since we had so few, and used the small bags for daily agilities and the larger stand up ones for daily board drill and tackling warm up. Any other kinda stuff was real "bodies"or the sled. I usually held the bag for the chute and board drill, and the players held the 2 for the tackling drill but stood off to the side a bit. I agree with the other guys, bags can be so awkward at times, you can get hurt worse with them. We actually did lose our best lineman to a freak knee injury during a live contact drill a few seasons back, the boss got a little mad at me, made us cut back on the contact the following year, we lost 4 guys to injury during games that year! So what do you do?
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Post by stackattack on Mar 1, 2007 5:49:00 GMT -6
Did this my very first year in coaching...result was not pretty!  It definately reinforced the philosophy of "you play like you practice". |
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Post by playfast on Mar 1, 2007 6:23:20 GMT -6
We are discussing the same problems. I have always believed go live to develop timing since we are option and also it seems like when you give a kid a bag it is time to go half speed and nothing get acomplished excpet the staff getting upset about effort.
We have been very good the past couple of years but this year for the first time I thought I saw us wear down because of the everyday grind of hitting. Some of this I believed is because we did not have a great weight room program last off season and the kids just were not in excellent physical condition to withstand all the hitting.
On the other side as coaches maybe we have to work EVEN HARDER to get the effort and timing we want when just using bags to preserve our players. It's like a catch twenty two!!
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Mar 1, 2007 6:39:53 GMT -6
I think there is a time and place for both. I like bags for about 3/4 of all drills (chutes, punch drill, LB fits, etc...) but feel that you must go w/out bags (not necessarily live) in the rest of the drills.
Example: Chutes/boards- 10 min period= defenders start with hand shields for most reps. Last 3 minutes- drop the bags and stuff the other guy in the chute.
Normal live drills: Inside (9 on 7), Blitz pickup, Half line run game, King of the boards, Combo drills...
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Post by zoneblitz on Mar 2, 2007 5:37:32 GMT -6
Early in the year we use bags when we are not allowed to be in full pads. Throughout most of the regular season we work against live bodies. Near the playoffs and throughout the playoffs we go back to bags. It is my philosophy that by the 9th-15th game of the season it is not neccessary to bang on live people up front.
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Post by ajreaper on Mar 2, 2007 12:15:04 GMT -6
I think you can get as much out of bags as you can live bodies as far as effort goes- it amounts to what you ask from your players. Young players will often see practicing in "shells" as being a 3/4 speed day but as coaches we'll get the effort we demand and nothing more- so bag work does not need to = less then 100% effort. I've coached freshman the past 6 years and we use bags a great deal in Indy and some group work and never during inside 7 or team work. If they cannot have excellent technique against a bag how can we ever expect them to have it live? In some things we say show me excellent technique and in others (live) make the dang play. Much of what we do is essentially muscle memory- if they do it enough, right during technique drills it'll start showing up in live work, IMO.
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Post by CVBears on Mar 2, 2007 15:00:40 GMT -6
As others have eluded to, it depends on the drill and the tempo. Form tackling, rip, swim, hands fit and bail tech, etc. we always want to use bags because we want to increase the reps.
That said, I would have a hard time only using bags, especially if my kids are undersized/inexperienced. I have seen that it is easier to go from getting proper form on a human then using bags later in the season rather than bags then humans.
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Post by champ93 on Mar 2, 2007 17:18:13 GMT -6
Both, but primarily bags in individual work and live contact in group (usually) and in team
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Post by Coach Huey on Mar 2, 2007 17:24:35 GMT -6
find a good middle ground. use common sense in determing how "hard" players need to be working during the week, as the season moves on.
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Post by dubber on Mar 2, 2007 17:53:54 GMT -6
Heard a coach say before the next to last game of the season: "If you don't have it by now, you're not going to get it."
On smaller teams, it usually doesn't do you any good to go against your SCOUT team---really it is a time when you see that sadistic senior lay out little Timmy over and over and over again. I think contact between equals in Individual drills is good, but come Team time, it might be a good idea to do bags and hand shields.
On another note, I am a fan of going fullpads only on Tuesdays, as I think it give the kids fresher legs on Fridays---it definitely is a sliding scale once the season winds down. The closer you get to the end, the less physical you need to be in practice.
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Post by coachseven on Mar 2, 2007 18:57:41 GMT -6
I have seen both sides of it. As a coach and a player. As a player I played for a coach that hit everyday by the time game day came I was beat up and it was a pain to take on those linemen when they pulled around. Another coach I played for we never hit. By the time game time came it was like the first day of pads except it was every Saturday we couldn't hit enough.
This year we hit hard most days. It was good early but became a grind for the kids towards the end of the season. It was work to get the JV kids to come to practice and even the Varsity got tired of laying them out towards the end of the season. Sometimes I thought an empty jersey would have given us a better look. But that was our philosphy and we had a very successful season.
Last year at a different school we hit hard during the pre-season but beginning the week of the first game until the end of the season we rarely (very rarely) hit and usually didn't go in anything but Helmets and shorts we only put pads on to drive the sled and for receivers and quarterbacks to be used to catching and throwing in pads. If you do this you really have to plan practice and sell the kids that just because we aren't in full pads that you still need to go hard. We actually got a lot more done than when we hit. Usually the first sereis of the game we were a little rusty but after that you better hold on. The year before we went from 4-6 hit everyday then last year we went 9-3 never hit. It worked for our kids. We also kept a lot more kids out because they weren't afraid of getting killed.
The one thing I would do different is I would full-pad the JV and let them hit each other at least a couple days a week.
We also had our Jr. High Hitting what would be condidered a normal amount.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by phantom on Mar 2, 2007 19:15:39 GMT -6
What some call a grind others consider being "battle-hardened". The season's always a grind whether you hit in practice or not. I believe in live work. That doesn't mean that the other guys are wrong because a lot of successful coaches do it differently. You have to decide how you want to do it.
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Post by coachjim on Mar 3, 2007 5:48:18 GMT -6
At youth level we did both, however, the bags are a clear distraction and we only used them because we couldn't afford any injuries. The kids don't really take the bags seriously and it always led to them goofing off and trying to wrestle around with them. They seem to take "live" more seriously so I will be leaning toward that this season if possible. Again, this is for youth level in case that applies in your case.
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Post by warrior53 on Mar 3, 2007 8:21:49 GMT -6
I think I have to go with 52 here. You can get a lot out of bags, but there has to be some hitting involved in practice for the big guys, you just can't get a feel of what is going to happen all the time with bags. We usually have at least one live drill a day - and that may just be inside depending on depth.
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Post by tfbcoach on Mar 4, 2007 7:34:32 GMT -6
I always liked to have contact during the week, with or without bags. I liked the idea of the players getting used to hitting and being hit.
However, I went to a clinic recently and heard three coaches talk about very limited hitting, but talk it up like crazy. The thinking behind that is they will be hungry for the contact come game time.
I am now toying with the idea and reflecting on the past. Does having a few of your hard hitters hitting the less talented players really help either? Are you just banging eachother up with the possibility of injury if you pair up the hard hitters?
I am leaning toward talking up the hitting, but restricting it in practice.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 4, 2007 15:34:56 GMT -6
I turn our kids loose on each other every day except for our pregame Thursday or Friday. I am going to coach them in as specific a manner a possible. The game is full speed with hard contact and so are our practices. All of our drills are full tempo; it develops aggressiveness in our kids. During scrimmages, we go thud on the backs, but we're still emphasizing proper tackling form; just no take down.
We limit injuries by just making sure we don't have mismatches during drills. Our heavy-hitters are always together in any drill. We're never going to have our smaller guys going up against the heavy hitters in smaller drills. It'll happen sometimes in the limiting scrimmaging we do, but that's also contained.
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Post by jhanawa on Mar 6, 2007 19:18:24 GMT -6
We use bags for skill specific drills, such as our RB lean and mean drill or our Burma Road conditioning drill at the end of practice. I don't like them for team time or Oline time, these are live times.
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It definately reinforced the philosophy of "you play like you practice".
