mikeyg
Sophomore Member
Posts: 154
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Post by mikeyg on Oct 6, 2017 21:22:40 GMT -6
So I was watching a local high school game last night. Never in my life have I seen or heard of this. The OLB in question is a smaller guy, 5'11ish about 140 in full pads soaking wet. Well the way he tackles is like a lot of smaller guys, he hits guys in the thighs right above the knee. Now to the call... Simple QB Read play, they have ran it all night. They run the play, OLB shoots in on a blitz, he is the read key and has been burned several time. Coach tells him previously to hit the RB and let the CB get the QB. The QB reads the LB, LB drills the RB in the thighs and takes him down, flag goes flying. QB gets tackled abd the play is over shortly after. Call on the field, CUT BLOCK ON THE DEFENSE. Can someone explain this one to me???
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 6, 2017 23:07:37 GMT -6
So I was watching a local high school game last night. Never in my life have I seen or heard of this. The OLB in question is a smaller guy, 5'11ish about 140 in full pads soaking wet. Well the way he tackles is like a lot of smaller guys, he hits guys in the thighs right above the knee. Now to the call... Simple QB Read play, they have ran it all night. They run the play, OLB shoots in on a blitz, he is the read key and has been burned several time. Coach tells him previously to hit the RB and let the CB get the QB. The QB reads the LB, LB drills the RB in the thighs and takes him down, flag goes flying. QB gets tackled abd the play is over shortly after. Call on the field, CUT BLOCK ON THE DEFENSE. Can someone explain this one to me??? A couple of things : 1) Potentially, the penalty was not even called on the OLB you saw, and a different defender made the illegal block below the waist. 2) In the judgement of the official, the RB clearly was not a ball carrier, and therefore the OLB's contact against him violated the blocking below the waist rule.
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mikeyg
Sophomore Member
Posts: 154
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Post by mikeyg on Oct 7, 2017 0:14:36 GMT -6
It was on him I know that for sure. Blocking below the waist, #1 of the Defense. 10 yard penalty. 1st down. The RB wasn't helpless and was a part of the play so it wasn't like a random cheap shot or anything. I was sitting up in the stands pretty shocked at the call.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 7, 2017 6:44:05 GMT -6
It was on him I know that for sure. Blocking below the waist, #1 of the Defense. 10 yard penalty. 1st down. The RB wasn't helpless and was a part of the play so it wasn't like a random cheap shot or anything. I was sitting up in the stands pretty shocked at the call. I don't recall seeing officials announce the player who committed the penalty to those in the stands in HS ball. It isn't about being helpless. I am no official, but it sounds like in the official's opinion, the RB clearly was not a ball carrier. It is illegal for anyone to block below the waist under federation rules unless the players involved meet the free blocking zone exception. A RB, and a LB would not on the play you describe.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 7, 2017 7:43:25 GMT -6
This is not what was called but it does relate.
Can you tackle a potential ball carrier who does not have the ball yet i.e. the pitchman? I understand you could hit that guy, but I think it could be called holding if you hold or tackle him.
I understand if you fake to him, or fake pitch to him, or he is just about to get the pitch that would probably be fine to tackle him.
Even if he is just a blocker, you can’t go and hold or tackle an offensive guy.
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Post by newt21 on Oct 7, 2017 7:44:37 GMT -6
It was on him I know that for sure. Blocking below the waist, #1 of the Defense. 10 yard penalty. 1st down. The RB wasn't helpless and was a part of the play so it wasn't like a random cheap shot or anything. I was sitting up in the stands pretty shocked at the call. I don't recall seeing officials announce the player who committed the penalty to those in the stands in HS ball. It isn't about being helpless. I am no official, but it sounds like in the official's opinion, the RB clearly was not a ball carrier. It is illegal for anyone to block below the waist under federation rules unless the players involved meet the free blocking zone exception. A RB, and a LB would not on the play you describe. True, but if he was carrying out a fake he can still be tackled, same as any ball carrier. Just depends on how long after the fake the hit occurred.
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Post by murdr on Oct 7, 2017 8:39:12 GMT -6
As I understand it, that's why guys are starting to love the power read toss. The read is so quick that any hit on the QB after tossing is a penalty.
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Post by Chris Clement on Oct 7, 2017 8:53:18 GMT -6
No you can't tackle a potential future ball carrier. However there is a weird loophole. A few years ago our league went gaga over shovel stuff. And it was a real bear to defend so it came to be a popular base play. But then defenses got smart and when you ran it on 1st and 10 they would just tackle the RB. Spot foul at the LOS and an automatic first down.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 7, 2017 9:05:49 GMT -6
This is not what was called but it does relate. Can you tackle a potential ball carrier who does not have the ball yet i.e. the pitchman? I understand you could hit that guy, but I think it could be called holding if you hold or tackle him. I understand if you fake to him, or fake pitch to him, or he is just about to get the pitch that would probably be fine to tackle him. Even if he is just a blocker, you can’t go and hold or tackle an offensive guy. I would like to hear an official's response to this, so maybe norcalmike or fbump could chime in. I think it would be a judgement call from the official as to whether there is any reasonable chance that a defender would think a player was a ball carrier, not just the fact that a player was faked to. There would be more latitude given to mesh type fakes obviously, as those generally would be more deceptive than long distance fakes (pitches). I mean, you would probably get called for holding if you tackled (grabbed) a wide out who faked a hitch route.
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mikeyg
Sophomore Member
Posts: 154
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Post by mikeyg on Oct 7, 2017 10:45:03 GMT -6
The coach asked the official who the foul was on and that was when he told the coach. There weren't that many people there so it was easy to hear. I could see it if the LB would have just hit the RB when he was nowhere near the play. But he him during the mesh during the read. I guess it would just come down to a judgement call by the official.
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Post by norcalmike on Oct 11, 2017 22:42:25 GMT -6
You can tackle a running back who is faking like he has the ball. Sounds like the running back was lead blocking and not faking then he cannot be blocked below the waist. Only players on the line of scrimmage and in the free blocking zone may block and be blocked below the waist. This was a good call by the official. Many officials will miss this type of block because they don't pay attention to who is on the line of scrimmage and who isn't.
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jbutch17
Freshmen Member
[F4:@JButch17]
Posts: 95
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Post by jbutch17 on Oct 31, 2017 8:58:22 GMT -6
They've also begun to call all numbers on all penalties this year or last.
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Post by RuningOutOfOptions on Nov 1, 2017 6:25:15 GMT -6
You can tackle a running back who is faking like he has the ball. Sounds like the running back was lead blocking and not faking then he cannot be blocked below the waist. Only players on the line of scrimmage and in the free blocking zone may block and be blocked below the waist. This was a good call by the official. Many officials will miss this type of block because they don't pay attention to who is on the line of scrimmage and who isn't. So by mechanics it has to been thrown by either the ump or the white cap. In that situation it should be a tough call for either to throw the flag on since unless it's a sweep going to the outside deep in the backfield, because there should not be a good angle to make that judgement call. So in this case it most have been a VERY good call by a VERY good official with exceptional eyesight in perfect position, or with x-ray vision. What I mean to say it that it's sounds a lot like it could have been one of the calls that were not the best, because that seems to be the most likely situation. Odd to call it a good call without knowing who threw the flag and where they were positioned, it can be compared to the QB throwing into coverage with the receiver ending up with the ball somehow. Might be the right result, but for the wrong reason. I've had sideline officials throwing flags for holding in the back field, umpire throwing flags for late hit out of bounds and even a white cap throw pass interference about 20 yards down field (beautiful throw with the flag though) this season, where the officials during the play left their assignment and thereby leaving part of the playing field unsupervised, which is a problem.
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 1, 2017 10:04:46 GMT -6
This is simple, the Ref messed up (assuming the OPs info is correct).
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Post by silkyice on Nov 1, 2017 11:57:54 GMT -6
You can tackle a running back who is faking like he has the ball. Sounds like the running back was lead blocking and not faking then he cannot be blocked below the waist. Only players on the line of scrimmage and in the free blocking zone may block and be blocked below the waist. This was a good call by the official. Many officials will miss this type of block because they don't pay attention to who is on the line of scrimmage and who isn't. I think you almost have it. I don't think the OP was saying the RB was lead blocking, but the pitchman. Here is the real question, can you illegally restrain a POTENTIAL ball carrier? I believe the answer is no, but I do not know that 100%. You can tackle someone who faked. That makes sense. He is faking. So you can wrap him up (hold) and/or hit him below the waist. The only players you can do that to is the ball carrier or someone faking like they have the ball. But, a potential ball carrier has the same protections as a non-ball carrier which does make sense. He would be looking inside for the pitch. He couldn't protect himself from a low cut. Therefore, it looks like the ref might have gotten this right. If the kid would have tackled him, the call would have probably been illegal holding. But he wasn't tackled, he was hit below the waist. You should be able to hit the potential ball carrier or block him, because you can do that to anyone. But you can't hold someone or hit below the waist unless they have the ball or act like they have the ball. Now, we can argue whether that is a good rule or not, but I do believe that is the rule.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 1, 2017 14:14:59 GMT -6
It was on him I know that for sure. Blocking below the waist, #1 of the Defense. 10 yard penalty. 1st down. The RB wasn't helpless and was a part of the play so it wasn't like a random cheap shot or anything. I was sitting up in the stands pretty shocked at the call. I don't recall seeing officials announce the player who committed the penalty to those in the stands in HS ball. It isn't about being helpless. I am no official, but it sounds like in the official's opinion, the RB clearly was not a ball carrier. It is illegal for anyone to block below the waist under federation rules unless the players involved meet the free blocking zone exception. A RB, and a LB would not on the play you describe. Week 9 we played at a place that had the refs miked up and they announced numbers.
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Post by coachkeating33 on Nov 1, 2017 14:48:11 GMT -6
So I was watching a local high school game last night. Never in my life have I seen or heard of this. The OLB in question is a smaller guy, 5'11ish about 140 in full pads soaking wet. Well the way he tackles is like a lot of smaller guys, he hits guys in the thighs right above the knee. Now to the call... Simple QB Read play, they have ran it all night. They run the play, OLB shoots in on a blitz, he is the read key and has been burned several time. Coach tells him previously to hit the RB and let the CB get the QB. The QB reads the LB, LB drills the RB in the thighs and takes him down, flag goes flying. QB gets tackled abd the play is over shortly after. Call on the field, CUT BLOCK ON THE DEFENSE. Can someone explain this one to me??? imo the refereee doesnt know what he is doing....he saw the low tackle and doesnt know the rule...if the rb got the ball faked to him he is free game...plain and simple....the ref is a typical guy who doesnt knowm the rules....imo
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Post by silkyice on Nov 1, 2017 17:08:47 GMT -6
So I was watching a local high school game last night. Never in my life have I seen or heard of this. The OLB in question is a smaller guy, 5'11ish about 140 in full pads soaking wet. Well the way he tackles is like a lot of smaller guys, he hits guys in the thighs right above the knee. Now to the call... Simple QB Read play, they have ran it all night. They run the play, OLB shoots in on a blitz, he is the read key and has been burned several time. Coach tells him previously to hit the RB and let the CB get the QB. The QB reads the LB, LB drills the RB in the thighs and takes him down, flag goes flying. QB gets tackled abd the play is over shortly after. Call on the field, CUT BLOCK ON THE DEFENSE. Can someone explain this one to me??? I need clarification. Was the ball faked to the RB or was he just a potential ball carrier?
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Post by norcalmike on Nov 1, 2017 18:12:44 GMT -6
You can tackle a running back who is faking like he has the ball. Sounds like the running back was lead blocking and not faking then he cannot be blocked below the waist. Only players on the line of scrimmage and in the free blocking zone may block and be blocked below the waist. This was a good call by the official. Many officials will miss this type of block because they don't pay attention to who is on the line of scrimmage and who isn't. I think you almost have it. I don't think the OP was saying the RB was lead blocking, but the pitchman. Here is the real question, can you illegally restrain a POTENTIAL ball carrier? I believe the answer is no, but I do not know that 100%. You can tackle someone who faked. That makes sense. He is faking. So you can wrap him up (hold) and/or hit him below the waist. The only players you can do that to is the ball carrier or someone faking like they have the ball. But, a potential ball carrier has the same protections as a non-ball carrier which does make sense. He would be looking inside for the pitch. He couldn't protect himself from a low cut. Therefore, it looks like the ref might have gotten this right. If the kid would have tackled him, the call would have probably been illegal holding. But he wasn't tackled, he was hit below the waist. You should be able to hit the potential ball carrier or block him, because you can do that to anyone. But you can't hold someone or hit below the waist unless they have the ball or act like they have the ball. Now, we can argue whether that is a good rule or not, but I do believe that is the rule. You cannot restrain a potential ball carrier. This would be considered holding. If you hit the potential ball carrier below the waist, it is a personal foul, illegal block below the waist. So you can block a potential ball carrier as long as the technique is legal.
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Post by norcalmike on Nov 1, 2017 18:18:52 GMT -6
So I was watching a local high school game last night. Never in my life have I seen or heard of this. The OLB in question is a smaller guy, 5'11ish about 140 in full pads soaking wet. Well the way he tackles is like a lot of smaller guys, he hits guys in the thighs right above the knee. Now to the call... Simple QB Read play, they have ran it all night. They run the play, OLB shoots in on a blitz, he is the read key and has been burned several time. Coach tells him previously to hit the RB and let the CB get the QB. The QB reads the LB, LB drills the RB in the thighs and takes him down, flag goes flying. QB gets tackled abd the play is over shortly after. Call on the field, CUT BLOCK ON THE DEFENSE. Can someone explain this one to me??? imo the refereee doesnt know what he is doing....he saw the low tackle and doesnt know the rule...if the rb got the ball faked to him he is free game...plain and simple....the ref is a typical guy who doesnt knowm the rules....imo Really, the ref doesn't know the rules? That's like me saying you, as a coach, doesn't know how to call an offense. The OP doesn't state that there is a fake to the RB, therefore, the ref properly identified a foul for an illegal block below the waist. With the information contained in the OP, this is the correct call.
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Post by norcalmike on Nov 1, 2017 18:20:28 GMT -6
I don't recall seeing officials announce the player who committed the penalty to those in the stands in HS ball. It isn't about being helpless. I am no official, but it sounds like in the official's opinion, the RB clearly was not a ball carrier. It is illegal for anyone to block below the waist under federation rules unless the players involved meet the free blocking zone exception. A RB, and a LB would not on the play you describe. Week 9 we played at a place that had the refs miked up and they announced numbers. The rule changed last year to allow the number to be announced. Usually only happens when the white hat is mic'ed up.
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Post by norcalmike on Nov 1, 2017 18:36:58 GMT -6
You can tackle a running back who is faking like he has the ball. Sounds like the running back was lead blocking and not faking then he cannot be blocked below the waist. Only players on the line of scrimmage and in the free blocking zone may block and be blocked below the waist. This was a good call by the official. Many officials will miss this type of block because they don't pay attention to who is on the line of scrimmage and who isn't. So by mechanics it has to been thrown by either the ump or the white cap. In that situation it should be a tough call for either to throw the flag on since unless it's a sweep going to the outside deep in the backfield, because there should not be a good angle to make that judgement call. So in this case it most have been a VERY good call by a VERY good official with exceptional eyesight in perfect position, or with x-ray vision. What I mean to say it that it's sounds a lot like it could have been one of the calls that were not the best, because that seems to be the most likely situation. Odd to call it a good call without knowing who threw the flag and where they were positioned, it can be compared to the QB throwing into coverage with the receiver ending up with the ball somehow. Might be the right result, but for the wrong reason. I've had sideline officials throwing flags for holding in the back field, umpire throwing flags for late hit out of bounds and even a white cap throw pass interference about 20 yards down field (beautiful throw with the flag though) this season, where the officials during the play left their assignment and thereby leaving part of the playing field unsupervised, which is a problem. Based on the OP this call would likely be made by the Umpire or the white hat. As an umpire, I try to keep track of my linebacker's numbers. I do this to see if they are cut blocked at by a lineman or if they block low on a RB. The white hat does the same with the RBs. As far a who should call what fouls on a field there is a general mechanic of "not fishing in someone else's pond." This usually means that we are not going to throw a flag for a foul for something that is not in our zone. However, there are some things that we will throw flags outside our zone. Usually this related to a safety foul. For example, you mention an umpire throwing a flag for a late hit out of bounds. As an umpire on a play going out of bounds I will be heading towards that area to help retrieve the ball and to clean up while the flank official is getting the spot and moving the players back onto the field. As I am moving towards the sideline I may have a much better view of the foul. Also since this is a safety foul, I am going to throw it. A flank may throw a flag on a holding call because their responsibility on a running play is to watch the blocks occurring in front of the point of attack while the R is watching the ball carrier. As for the R throwing a flag of DPI, I can't explain that.
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Post by coachkeating33 on Nov 2, 2017 5:29:57 GMT -6
imo the refereee doesnt know what he is doing....he saw the low tackle and doesnt know the rule...if the rb got the ball faked to him he is free game...plain and simple....the ref is a typical guy who doesnt knowm the rules....imo Really, the ref doesn't know the rules? That's like me saying you, as a coach, doesn't know how to call an offense. The OP doesn't state that there is a fake to the RB, therefore, the ref properly identified a foul for an illegal block below the waist. With the information contained in the OP, this is the correct call. he said it is a "qb READ PLAY"........does that not mean the qb "rode" the rb and read.......ref didnt know the rules or just made the wrong call....its amazing how many refs do not know all the rules.....
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Post by silkyice on Nov 2, 2017 6:16:55 GMT -6
Really, the ref doesn't know the rules? That's like me saying you, as a coach, doesn't know how to call an offense. The OP doesn't state that there is a fake to the RB, therefore, the ref properly identified a foul for an illegal block below the waist. With the information contained in the OP, this is the correct call. he said it is a "qb READ PLAY"........does that not mean the qb "rode" the rb and read.......ref didnt know the rules or just made the wrong call....its amazing how many refs do not know all the rules..... Not necessarily, especially when the OLB took the RB and the CB (cornerback) took the QB. OP said the OLB was the read key. Usually the DE is the read key in zone read. That certainly implies to me that the RB was the pitchman and a potential ball carrier instead of someone who was faked to like on zone read. I am taking the word “read” to be “option” here. Sometimes terminology is different for people. I could be wrong. That is why I asked for clarification.
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 2, 2017 6:23:59 GMT -6
imo the refereee doesnt know what he is doing....he saw the low tackle and doesnt know the rule...if the rb got the ball faked to him he is free game...plain and simple....the ref is a typical guy who doesnt knowm the rules....imo Really, the ref doesn't know the rules? That's like me saying you, as a coach, doesn't know how to call an offense. The OP doesn't state that there is a fake to the RB, therefore, the ref properly identified a foul for an illegal block below the waist. With the information contained in the OP, this is the correct call. There's a lot of rules or interpretations that refs mess up on. Your analogy doesn't really apply. There's bad coaches who don't know how to coach just like there's incompetent refs out there.
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Post by gdoggwr on Nov 2, 2017 8:23:23 GMT -6
If its a mesh type play; power read, or dive option, or zone read (could be any of those based on the OP description), then it sounds like a bad call to me. The OP makes it sound like a bang/bang type of situation, and the RB would be appearing to have the ball. However, if its a speed option look then it sounds like its the right call. Although like ANY discussion on here about rules, nobody will agree on anything without video to see.
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mikeyg
Sophomore Member
Posts: 154
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Post by mikeyg on Nov 2, 2017 8:30:42 GMT -6
he said it is a "qb READ PLAY"........does that not mean the qb "rode" the rb and read.......ref didnt know the rules or just made the wrong call....its amazing how many refs do not know all the rules..... Not necessarily, especially when the OLB took the RB and the CB (cornerback) took the QB. OP said the OLB was the read key. Usually the DE is the read key in zone read. That certainly implies to me that the RB was the pitchman and a potential ball carrier instead of someone who was faked to like on zone read. I am taking the word “read” to be “option” here. Sometimes terminology is different for people. I could be wrong. That is why I asked for clarification. What I call a read is the RB was running to the left and aiming for the outside. It was Zone Read. The Defense shwed their cards and the DE lined up inside so the T picked him up and next man outside was the OLB who was up on the line waiting to shoot in. The RB crossed the QB's face and the QB took 2 quick steps left and rode him out until the OLB tackled the RB. QB pulled the ball just before and scampered right for a gain of 6.
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pistola
Sophomore Member
Posts: 193
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Post by pistola on Nov 2, 2017 9:27:10 GMT -6
Really, the ref doesn't know the rules? That's like me saying you, as a coach, doesn't know how to call an offense. The OP doesn't state that there is a fake to the RB, therefore, the ref properly identified a foul for an illegal block below the waist. With the information contained in the OP, this is the correct call. There's a lot of rules or interpretations that refs mess up on. Your analogy doesn't really apply. There's bad coaches who don't know how to coach just like there's incompetent refs out there. no.. I think it fits perfectly... keating is going all the way to make the assumption that this ref in the situation doesn't know the rules.. and he is just a typical guy who doesn't know the rules.. based on one play that may or may not be right (no real way to tell with out watching) very similar to assuming a coach is an idiot based on one play call
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 2, 2017 9:33:07 GMT -6
There's a lot of rules or interpretations that refs mess up on. Your analogy doesn't really apply. There's bad coaches who don't know how to coach just like there's incompetent refs out there. no.. I think it fits perfectly... keating is going all the way to make the assumption that this ref in the situation doesn't know the rules.. and he is just a typical guy who doesn't know the rules.. based on one play that may or may not be right (no real way to tell with out watching) very similar to assuming a coach is an idiot based on one play call I don't think he's necessarily saying he doesn't know the rule. I see it as the ref making a poor judgment call. Unless his explanation was "you can't tackle a guy without the ball". Then I'd question if he knew the rule.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 2, 2017 9:45:15 GMT -6
Not necessarily, especially when the OLB took the RB and the CB (cornerback) took the QB. OP said the OLB was the read key. Usually the DE is the read key in zone read. That certainly implies to me that the RB was the pitchman and a potential ball carrier instead of someone who was faked to like on zone read. I am taking the word “read” to be “option” here. Sometimes terminology is different for people. I could be wrong. That is why I asked for clarification. What I call a read is the RB was running to the left and aiming for the outside. It was Zone Read. The Defense shwed their cards and the DE lined up inside so the T picked him up and next man outside was the OLB who was up on the line waiting to shoot in. The RB crossed the QB's face and the QB took 2 quick steps left and rode him out until the OLB tackled the RB. QB pulled the ball just before and scampered right for a gain of 6. Thank you for the clarification. That sounds like an awful call then.
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