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Post by touchdowng on Apr 5, 2007 16:45:49 GMT -6
Fall baseball is becoming more popular in our area and some potential FB players are being told "the only way you'll make our select team, get a scholarship, or get to the bigs is if you play year around."
These coaches are not affiliated with the school system and we don't have much control over all of them. Our district AD has confronted some of them and told them they will not be able to use our fields if they continue this message with kids, but some are not in our district boundary and our AD has no influence on them.
Does anyone else have a good plan for taking care of these types of coaches who continually manipulate kids? I want to begin mobilizing now before these self-serving coaches begin dishing it up to kids and their parents again.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 5, 2007 18:39:36 GMT -6
SHOW THE PARENTS THAT THE "BASEBALL SCHOLARSHIP" DOES NOT EXIST. Baseball is an equivalency sport. The teams get the equivalent of 11.5 scholarships MAXIMUM to field a team. Do the math. The very best hardballers that go to college are not on full scholly. They are on work study, with a small grant and aid, and some leadership type money as well maybe.
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 5, 2007 19:13:20 GMT -6
CoachD is exctly correct- no one gets a full ride at best it's a partial. Ask them to produce a list of all the baseball players who've played in their program and are now at colleges or in the "bigs" - my guess is it's a very short list.
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Post by Coach Bruce on Apr 5, 2007 20:17:40 GMT -6
Same here in Hope mills..Hope Mills won the Dixie Youth World Series and now parents are pumping their boys to skip football and play FALL BALL....they all suck! and FalL BALL SUCKS ALSO!
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Post by coach79 on Apr 5, 2007 22:07:29 GMT -6
Fall Ball = Football! Don't know any other type of fall ball, there is a reason football and fall begin with the same letter.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 6, 2007 5:33:15 GMT -6
I do think you have to avoid becoming adversarial. As you mentioned, some try to manipulate the kids, and being completely adversarial could only lead to more manipulation. Having a "football is king, baseball sucks" attitude won't solve your problem. It will simply make you look like you are in it for YOUR interest, and not the kids. This is not what you want the parents to think.
Simply sit down with the parents/kids and find out what they want. If they are LOOKING for a baseball scholarship, be armed with the info (get it from NCAA.ORG) you need to show them that they simply aren't making a wise time investment. Not playing football will not give them the monetary reward (scholarship) they are looking for. Now you are showing that you are concerned about the kid, and his life, not your football program.
Maybe research some past two sport athletes in the area. Note all the top athletes who were multi sports athletes.
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Post by dubber on Apr 6, 2007 10:39:06 GMT -6
We had a similar problem. We had a basketball coach come in tell all his basketball players to forget football, he only lasted one year..........however, we are two years later still feeling the pinch
(our junior and senior class were 8th graders and 9th graders when this guy got into their ears.......a lot of good football kids aren't playing fb and are riding the pine in basketball).
Be honest with the kids.....encourage them to play other sports, the guys that try to "steal" or "horde" athletes will be shown for the jerks they are.........or you can slash their tires.........
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Post by jhanawa on Apr 6, 2007 10:54:52 GMT -6
"football is king, baseball sucks" attitude But it is, and it does...LOL  As others said, encourage kids to be 3 sport athletes, Football in Fall, Bball or Wrestling in winter then Track or Baseball in the spring. Basketball, Wrestling and Track are good conditioning and Skill workouts for football players! Not sure that baseball is good for anything other than killing grass from non movement, BORING, but thats just my sarcastic opinion. 
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Post by sls on Apr 6, 2007 14:59:29 GMT -6
" Not sure that baseball is good for anything other than killing grass from non movement, BORING, but thats just my sarcastic opinion. I really dislike baseball, I do not think it does anything to help my football players. They don't get as strong and they stand around. I would love to see everyone of them run track. I HATE baseball. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 6, 2007 15:53:08 GMT -6
I realize the previous two posts are somewhat sarcastic (one being self admittedly so). However, they do bring out part of the issue here....both posts are made from the point of view that football has some type of privledged right to athletes first...and that the athletes are FOOTBALL players, who might play other sports. This is the exact same attitude that the "hording" coaches have, and do not serve our cause well at all.
This line of thinking will undoubtedly have baseball coaches and parents saying "crashing into other people doesn't help baseball players. Fall ball helps baseball players"
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Post by sls on Apr 6, 2007 16:25:17 GMT -6
I am in a school of 625, so multi-sports kids are essential. I push all of my kids to play other sports, I really do.
I am not sarcastic, I really don't like it. If there is a kid who loves baseball, I don't mess with him, if there is a kid that just plays baseball because his friends do, I push him to track. Here is my problem our kids are not allowed to lift on the day of a game, so I have 10 baseball players that will not lift all of April and may, and maybe 2 weeks of June. Our BB program is undisciplined and lazy, that with a stand around sport, and our football, basketball players, and wrestlers are not getting any better. I would rather have kids play golf in the spring, because they will at least lift.
I have runs in with youth league BB parents/organizers because in the summer I will not excuse FB players for youth league. Thankfully most of parents realize that Indiana produces fewer BB players than FB players and that the Basketball program and football player fund baseball, so no "getting you fired" problems.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 6, 2007 17:15:56 GMT -6
We had the same problem around here; Legion baseball coaches coersing the kids into playing in the fall league. They used to same lines of bs about scholarships.
They've actually become quite unpopular around here; the kids and parents are tired of the used car salesman lines. They haven't sent anyone off to a major college baseball program (1-2 kids a year to NAIA, DII or DIII) and the kids are seeing that.
Just be the good coach and tell them to play multiple sports, the kids and parents will notice after awhile.
Plus, if the kid is torn between fall baseball and football, then he probably doesn't have awhole lot of passion for football. We have lost some athletes to fall baseball, but they tended to be prima donnas with pain-in-the-a$$ parents.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 6, 2007 17:37:20 GMT -6
cb-- That is the best thing to do. Something else of merit might be to get some of those parents whose kids DID just do fall ball (and regret it of course) talk to some of the current years parents...and kids talk to the kids. Why not learn from other's mistakes.
I do think the best weapon is educating the parents about the mythical baseball scholarship. This serves two purposes...one it disarms the fall ball coaches of a tool, and TWO, once it gets public in your community that the baseball scholarship doesn't exist, it will temper some of those parents who do it for ego purposes. If everyone knows that little johnny isn't on a "full scholarship" to Big Time U to play baseall, then that might keep little johnny's parents from pitching the idea to others too, to make them seem more bigtime.
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coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
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Post by coachf on Apr 6, 2007 21:18:37 GMT -6
Sucky situation. I have never dealt with it that severely, but we do have a little bit of it with baseball here. It stinks but eventually those coaches get what they deserve. Case in point, I know a "school  " that had 2 players quit last week. Apparently, it came down to an insane dad being a jerk. But, I know part of the matter (and part of the reason that Dad was so mad), was the 2 players only played baseball. They spent the whole season training for it and were not getting the playing time they felt an "all season" training deserved. If you ask for exclusiveness, be prepared for all that comes with it. |
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Post by biggroff on Apr 7, 2007 11:27:48 GMT -6
At our school we knew we would have problems with Baseball and wresting wanting kids to focus on thier programs exclusively.
The way we countered the issue is to use our overwhelming number of coaches and we made a comitment to coach at least one other spoprt so we would have an influence in eac of the other programs. Within 3 years the following has happened....
Basketball - Football coaches now make up 3 or the 5 assistants
Wrestling - Football coaches now make up 2 or the 4 assistants
Baseball - Football coaches now make up 4 of the 6 coaches including the head coach.
Track - Football now makes up 3 or the 6 spots including head coach.
Kids in the school see football coaches in every sport and we have influence on them every season they are out for a sport. Also we can have a major influence in how the kids lift (kids actually lift during baseball season!) in each sport, and Football has the major influence in the school BUT we are also promoting the other sports and becoming better coaches due do the extra commitment to the kids outside of football.
Also the other head coaches don't have the ability to "Horde" the other kids and get in their ear about playing one sport.
In the end all we wanted as a football staff is for the kids to have access to the wieghtroom all year long and for the weight room to be stressed all season. We did not care if kids wanted to play another sport...in fact we want kids to play more than one sport (As most football coahes want). But now we know that kids will lift and we will have no probelms with being told that you need to focus on one sport.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 7, 2007 11:48:14 GMT -6
At our school we knew we would have problems with Baseball and wresting wanting kids to focus on thier programs exclusively. The way we countered the issue is to use our overwhelming number of coaches and we made a comitment to coach at least one other spoprt so we would have an influence in eac of the other programs. Within 3 years the following has happened.... Basketball - Football coaches now make up 3 or the 5 assistants Wrestling - Football coaches now make up 2 or the 4 assistants Baseball - Football coaches now make up 4 of the 6 coaches including the head coach. Track - Football now makes up 3 or the 6 spots including head coach. Kids in the school see football coaches in every sport and we have influence on them every season they are out for a sport. Also we can have a major influence in how the kids lift (kids actually lift during baseball season!) in each sport, and Football has the major influence in the school BUT we are also promoting the other sports and becoming better coaches due do the extra commitment to the kids outside of football. Also the other head coaches don't have the ability to "Horde" the other kids and get in their ear about playing one sport. In the end all we wanted as a football staff is for the kids to have access to the wieghtroom all year long and for the weight room to be stressed all season. We did not care if kids wanted to play another sport...in fact we want kids to play more than one sport (As most football coahes want). But now we know that kids will lift and we will have no probelms with being told that you need to focus on one sport. That's a great point; permeate the coaching ranks and keep the kids out. One thing to remember too; you gotta give some kids a reason to play football. That usually comes down to winning games; or at least more games than the baseball program wins. Several of the kids we lost to fall baseball were upset that we expected them to lift in the offseason. They wanted to spend their summer in the baseball dug-outs, eating sunflower seeds and screwing off. We planned around their baseball schedule, but I guess the 2-3 days a week for an hour were too much for them. |
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Post by dubber on Apr 7, 2007 13:24:09 GMT -6
At our school we knew we would have problems with Baseball and wresting wanting kids to focus on thier programs exclusively. The way we countered the issue is to use our overwhelming number of coaches and we made a comitment to coach at least one other spoprt so we would have an influence in eac of the other programs. Within 3 years the following has happened.... Basketball - Football coaches now make up 3 or the 5 assistants Wrestling - Football coaches now make up 2 or the 4 assistants Baseball - Football coaches now make up 4 of the 6 coaches including the head coach. Track - Football now makes up 3 or the 6 spots including head coach. Kids in the school see football coaches in every sport and we have influence on them every season they are out for a sport. Also we can have a major influence in how the kids lift (kids actually lift during baseball season!) in each sport, and Football has the major influence in the school BUT we are also promoting the other sports and becoming better coaches due do the extra commitment to the kids outside of football. Also the other head coaches don't have the ability to "Horde" the other kids and get in their ear about playing one sport. In the end all we wanted as a football staff is for the kids to have access to the wieghtroom all year long and for the weight room to be stressed all season. We did not care if kids wanted to play another sport...in fact we want kids to play more than one sport (As most football coahes want). But now we know that kids will lift and we will have no probelms with being told that you need to focus on one sport. I agree, this is a great idea We're going to have two football coaches (including myself) taking over the track program next year. Lots of speed training and lazy linemen can't hide over around the throwing ring anymore. After a brisk 45 min. to 1 hour practice, get your butt in the weightroom. Gonna love it. |
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 7, 2007 14:35:18 GMT -6
Thanks for all of the great insights and remarks - sarcastic or otherwise.
Our high school coaches are awesome to work with and our HS baseball players lift during their season (and are in 1st place) and our track team does their core lifting with the off-season FB guys before going to track turnout 3 days a week. This was the Track coaches idea!
I think slashing tires of the YOUTH baseball coaches will work best. No sarcasm meant.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 7, 2007 16:17:04 GMT -6
TDG----i would be interested to see how you do if you do indeed point out to the parents/kids that the baseball scholarship is non existant
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 7, 2007 21:53:41 GMT -6
I don't think I'd take that path. We have three of our baseball players who are getting D1 scholarships next year. One is at 80% and the others are at 40% and 25% respectively. So, baseball scholarships do exist. I don't want to get into that argument. For many parents they just want to say, "my son was offered a scholarship." They don't quantify it by a percentage.
Only one of those 3 kids played football but sat out his senior season last fall because he didn't want to hurt himself for baseball. He did come back and asked to play after we'd played 3 games. However, I turned him down and said he should have started with the rest of the kids. Too bad, because he gained over 1,000 yards his junior year. I think he got bored with Fall ball.
I wanted to send a message that if you are going to be part of a football team, at least my team, you need to be here when our season starts in mid-August.
I'm not opposed to kids wanting to do the fall baseball thing as long as it is THEIR thing and they aren't being persuaded by overzealous adults in their lives - unfortunately, the majority of them are. Our school has a nice balance amongst our coaches. I need to find a way to communicate to those middle school age kids (and parents) who play the youth select baseball that making the decision to put their hopes all on one sport will only work out for about 1-3% of them, if that.
If they looked at college rosters and read the bios of many of the D1 baseball players, they would notice immediately how many of them played football and basketball.
As with anything, it's education and how to do this without being intrusive (or looking like we're slamming another sport) is the big key. I plan to work with our community rec department and with our district AD and I know they are both proponents of the multi-sport philosophy.
We won't get all of the kids but we can give the parents something to think about.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 8, 2007 6:05:17 GMT -6
TDG---I can understand where you are coming from. But, 80% (which i strongly doubt, obviously not saying you are lying, just saying i don't think you weren't told all the facts) 40% and 25%...are these $$$ values worth not playing H.S. football. That is the key.
You are trying to change behavior, and social learning theory centers around two key tenents. First is the self-efficacy of the person involved, and second is that the person involved must have personal incentive to change the behavior.
Right now, the youth ball coaches have their kids believing each kid/parent is scholarship material, AND the parents with limited knowledge (thinking college tuition problem will be solved) have the incentive to do so.
I bet on an indivdual basis each parent would willingly acknowledge that putting the hopes into one sport would only work out for 1-3 percent. HOWEVER, EACH PARENT FEELS THEIR KID IS IN THAT 1-3% So trying to logically appeal to them on their odds might not give you the results you want. Opening their eyes to the fact that the incentive isn't really their for them, might give you better results. Again, just my opinion based on some study of behavioral change and social learning theory.
I do agree with you that the idea ISN'T to stamp out fall ball, or even recruit kids from fall ball. The idea is to keep other coaches and adults from trying to brainwash the kids OUT of playing football.
I just think the best avenue to fight this is to say "is playing one sport in hopes of getting something so SMALL (partial scholly) worth giving up the experience of playing high school football.
I also think you are doing right by the kids and parents to make sure they have all the info out there. Precious few understand the concept of equivalency. --A neat little side benefit for you and the program is that as You said, many PARENTS just want to be able to say "my boy got a scholarship". Educating the public on the nature of baseball grant-in-aids might cut into this, as it takes away the golden sheen, and now everyone knows what really is going on.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 9, 2007 8:58:19 GMT -6
We've had several kids ditch football to play fall baseball, get burned out on it and decide to come back. A lot of the kids that play fall baseball are solid athletes, but aren't very emotionally or physically tough. They like the fact that they don't have to lift, come to camp, or show up for 2-a-days. If they don't enjoy football enough to skip playing baseball year round, then it's generally not a big loss to us.
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Post by phantom on Apr 21, 2007 12:59:02 GMT -6
Tape a copy of the segment of HBO's Real Sports that I just saw. It was about the number of young kids who are needing Tommy John surgery and blamed it, in part, on year-round play.
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" that had 2 players quit last week. Apparently, it came down to an insane dad being a jerk. But, I know part of the matter (and part of the reason that Dad was so mad), was the 2 players only played baseball. They spent the whole season training for it and were not getting the playing time they felt an "all season" training deserved. 