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Post by nltdiego on May 1, 2017 18:51:11 GMT -6
Guys,
Trying to completely change around the culture of our program. Have the best athletes not buying in, while the high character kids (not very good athletically) are totally bought in and busting their behinds off.
Question; can you win with high character kids?
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Post by fantom on May 1, 2017 19:07:54 GMT -6
Guys, Trying to completely change around the culture of our program. Have the best athletes not buying in, while the high character kids (not very good athletically) are totally bought in and busting their behinds off. Question; can you win with high character kids? Sure. Can you win with high character kids with no talent? No. If you're trying to establish a program you may need to do that, though.
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Post by huddlehut on May 1, 2017 19:27:56 GMT -6
Yes...if you tailor what you do offensively and defensively to make the most of the talent you have available. One things for certain, your stress level during the season will be a lot less with high character guys - even if they have no talent. One of my favorite years was mediocre record-wise...but very enjoyable because we had some great kids!
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Post by newhope on May 2, 2017 9:04:19 GMT -6
I'm not sure you can win WITHOUT high character kids. And even if you can, I don't want to be in a place that doesn't have them. LIfe's too short. In my experience, you need a handful of athletes with at least some degree of character and hopefully some of those with high character, and surround them with the high character kids, and you're going to be very good.
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Post by carookie on May 2, 2017 9:14:17 GMT -6
Fantom nailed it 100%.
I will add that your question seems to presuppose that being high character and a good athlete are mutually exclusive; they are not. Some of the hardest working, highest moral fiber players I have also coached were also great athletes.
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Post by coachcb on May 2, 2017 9:36:15 GMT -6
We would sink those low-character athletes to the bottom of the depth chart, tell them why and make them earn their way back to the top. Those that choose to do so will have developed some character and showed work ethic. Drop them back down if they stop being coachable and/or revert to their old ways. Many of the entitled athletes won't even stick around once they lose their starting spot and that solves a lot of problems.
But, you will never change the culture of a program if you play the lazy athletes over the hard-working, less talented kids. It's pretty hard to get one of those kids to buy into the system if they bust hump but have sloths with bad attitudes getting the playing time.
I'd rather lose with winners than win with losers.
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Post by aceback76 on May 2, 2017 9:42:10 GMT -6
Guys, Trying to completely change around the culture of our program. Have the best athletes not buying in, while the high character kids (not very good athletically) are totally bought in and busting their behinds off. Question; can you win with high character kids? John Wooden Quotes. Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are. It sure HELPS to have players WITH it!!!
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Post by groundchuck on May 2, 2017 9:45:09 GMT -6
When your hardest working highest character players are also your best players, that's when you'll win big time.
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Post by coachmonkey on May 2, 2017 9:56:27 GMT -6
Yes you can. You see talented teams get beat quite a bit by less talented teams with kids that are willing to do what the talent won't.
Are you talking about they just won't workout hard? I know as coaches we want them all to, but the reality is that's life. Some people are just flat out better than others at things without working as hard.
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Post by fantom on May 2, 2017 10:25:47 GMT -6
A lot of this depends on how you define "character".
I was talking with a guy once who had coached at The University of Tampa back when they had football. They had every bandit in Florida on the team, including "The Tooz", John Matuszak. Coaches would pick up guys at their apartments, drive them to the door of their class, and the kid would skip right out of the back door.
But they loved football. He said that he'd be working in his office two hours before practice, hear a noise and look out of the window and see guys hitting a sled.
I've coached some great football players on some great teams.Some had to be reminded that it's "Yes, Coach", not "Yeah, Man". Not all of them were avid students. There were always a few (WR's and QB's, mostly. Never linemen) who did not enjoy the weight room. They didn't cause trouble at school, though, and they stayed eligible. They studied film and practiced and played hard. Tht's all that we could ask for.
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Post by wolfden12 on May 2, 2017 10:27:53 GMT -6
Sometimes the wins take care of themselves when you have high character guys. Invest into those who are investing in you. Build and develop the character and then develop the skills and fundamentals. Kids will see the culture change and want to be apart of something special. Those who are not "falling in line" or "buying in" will feel like an outsider and leave or be forced to leave. Trust the process!
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Post by 3rdandlong on May 2, 2017 12:58:23 GMT -6
Is this a new program for you? I ask this because in my experience good athletes are almost always resistant to change.
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Post by 19delta on May 2, 2017 14:14:31 GMT -6
High character, low character...it doesn't matter if you don't have some talent. You aren't going to win much in that case.
What is the standard against which the kids are being measured? In other words, what makes some of the kids "high character" and other kids not? Or, what do the other kids need to do to be considered "high character"?
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Post by blb on May 2, 2017 14:59:19 GMT -6
As fantom posted - define "character." There a lot of kids with great character in most schools who don't play football. There are also a lot of kids with great character that do play football but don't do everything we'd like them to do as part of the program. And there were some kids that did play for me who I wouldn't necessarily want to have seen at my front door to pick up one of our daughters for a date, but did everything we asked as far as football was concerned and were good to great players.
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Post by blb on May 2, 2017 15:12:35 GMT -6
Guys, Trying to completely change around the culture of our program. Have the best athletes not buying in, while the high character kids (not very good athletically) are totally bought in and busting their behinds off. Question; can you win with high character kids? John Wooden Quotes. Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are. It sure HELPS to have players WITH it!!!
A more relevant John Wooden quote is:
"Athletics don't TEACH character, they REVEAL it."
We could all win with kids who came to us with "high character" and also had talent.
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Post by mariner42 on May 2, 2017 16:01:58 GMT -6
I'd rather lose with winners than win with losers. Basically you have to come to terms with this. If you can sleep well after your high character kids lose to a bunch of sh!theads with a sh!thead coach because you know they played as hard as they could and you prepared them as well as you could, then you're all set. But if that L is going to keep you awake at night, then maybe character isn't as important to you as you said it was.
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Post by aceback76 on May 2, 2017 16:38:27 GMT -6
This is in our QB Manual:
CHARACTER:
"Character is what you do when nobody is watching"
1. You (QB) are held to a higher responsibility to do right than anyone else.
2. Are you coachable?
3. Do you have honesty and integrity to do the right thing, always, regardless of the outcome (be willing to be wrong)?
4. Do you have Faith?
---It puts things into perspective.
"Even the best leaders need someone to lead them. Someone who they can tap into as their power source, sense of strength and direction"
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Post by huddlehut on May 2, 2017 17:15:04 GMT -6
Average athletes with great attitudes are to be desired more than great athletes with average attitudes.
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Post by huddlehut on May 2, 2017 17:15:36 GMT -6
Average athletes with great attitudes are to be desired more than great athletes with average attitudes.
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Post by fantom on May 2, 2017 17:25:59 GMT -6
Average athletes with great attitudes are to be desired more than great athletes with average attitudes. I'll bet on the latter one every time.
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Post by PSS on May 2, 2017 19:08:46 GMT -6
When you're able to get the one's that are great athletes but questionable character to rise to the same level in character as your average athletes with great character then you get something special.
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Post by 19delta on May 2, 2017 21:50:05 GMT -6
Average athletes with great attitudes are to be desired more than great athletes with average attitudes. That probably looks great on a t-shirt but what does it really mean? And what's the difference between an average attitude and a great attitude? How do you quantify something like attitude? For me, a kid with a "great" attitude is one who: - Works hard in the weightroom and/or plays multiple sports
- Is liked by teammates and coaches
- Plays at the position he is needed, not necessarily at the position he wants
- Shows up on time and doesn't miss practice
- Doesn't flirt with the margins of the eligibility every week
- Doesn't make you think about him every time you hear police sirens
And if the kid can play a little, that is obviously a huge bonus!
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Post by blb on May 3, 2017 5:31:53 GMT -6
The problem is even if you have a team full of Honor Roll members and Eagle Scouts and you lose consistently, you will still get fired.
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Post by Defcord on May 3, 2017 6:10:20 GMT -6
I am at a point in my career where I am not coaching pure asssholes and bad teammates.
If you can't work to improve yourself and contribute to the team's goals then you aren't playing. I understand teenagers make mistakes and I can live with that, but kids (coaches for that matter as well) that consistently fuel failure with poor attitudes would have no place in a program that I was in charge of.
I may not be able to win with the choir, but I refuse to lose with people that bring misery to the program.
If I were to get fired because of this, well it's kind of like that scene in Shawshank Redemption when Morgan Freeman's character is up for parole and he ends the discussion with something like "quite frankly sonny, I don't give a shittt."
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Post by 19delta on May 3, 2017 7:41:21 GMT -6
I am at a point in my career where I am not coaching pure asssholes and bad teammates. If you can't work to improve yourself and contribute to the team's goals then you aren't playing. I understand teenagers make mistakes and I can live with that, but kids (coaches for that matter as well) that consistently fuel failure with poor attitudes would have no place in a program that I was in charge of. I may not be able to win with the choir, but I refuse to lose with people that bring misery to the program. If I were to get fired because of this, well it's kind of like that scene in Shawshank Redemption when Morgan Freeman's character is up for parole and he ends the discussion with something like "quite frankly sonny, I don't give a shittt." It's easy to spot a cancer. Those guys are obvious. If a kid is a cancer and isn't any good, that makes the coach's decision about whether or not to play him simple. On the other hand, if the kid can play, some coaches are going to be willing to put up with a lot. But I don't think that is what is being discussed here. I'm still waiting for a definition of "average attitude". I don't know what that means. If a kid meets the description I posted up the thread, that is a "great attitude", as far as I am concerned. And, like many others have stated, a kid can have a "great attitude" yet be a terrible football player. After all, Rudy had a great attitude and was a terrific teammate. He was also a really lousy football player!
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Post by coachcb on May 3, 2017 9:25:14 GMT -6
I'd rather lose with winners than win with losers. Basically you have to come to terms with this. If you can sleep well after your high character kids lose to a bunch of sh!theads with a sh!thead coach because you know they played as hard as they could and you prepared them as well as you could, then you're all set. But if that L is going to keep you awake at night, then maybe character isn't as important to you as you said it was. I had my worst year in coaching because I didn't adhere to this philosophy. We had a junior high team filled with talent and we played kids with terrible attitudes over our hard-workers every game. Our Rudy kids still got playing time but we started the athletic sloths over them. We went undefeated and won the league title but I was continually frustrated with myself and the team because of we played lazy football and won games. But, I kept telling myself it was worth it because we were winning games. I would have been a happier coach had I benched the lazy a--es and played the rest of them all season. We may not have won a game a single game if I had done so but at least I could have watched some kids play hard.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 3, 2017 9:35:44 GMT -6
I'm still waiting for a definition of "average attitude". I don't know what that means. Currently for me the definition of what good/average/bad attitude is, what the HC tells me I have to put up with.
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Post by Coach Vint on May 3, 2017 13:07:00 GMT -6
Character does two things... On teams with great character, the level of talent is magnified. That doesn't guarantee winning, but it usually means you will be consistent and play above your talent. Teams lacking character reduce their talent. They underachieve and often are inconsistent. They lose to teams they should beat.
As a coach we set expectations, we develop our players to be accountable to their teammates and themselves, and to be better today than they were yesterday. If they consistently can't meet the expectations we set, and they negatively affect others, they need to go somewhere else.
Great programs that consistently win have some talent. But what they really have is a high degree of character, leadership, and mental toughness. This helps them to play at an even higher level than their talent would have them play. Other teams have talented players, but they don't have a high degree of character. They lose games they should win, and lose to teams with less pure "talent."
As coaches I believe we can develop character, leadership, accountability, and mental toughness. However, there may be some kids that refuse to develop. They have to go. Sometimes the greatest thing we can do for a kid and our program is to let them go.
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Post by huddlehut on May 3, 2017 13:35:59 GMT -6
Average athletes with great attitudes are to be desired more than great athletes with average attitudes. That probably looks great on a t-shirt but what does it really mean? And what's the difference between an average attitude and a great attitude? How do you quantify something like attitude? For me, a kid with a "great" attitude is one who: - Works hard in the weightroom and/or plays multiple sports
- Is liked by teammates and coaches
- Plays at the position he is needed, not necessarily at the position he wants
- Shows up on time and doesn't miss practice
- Doesn't flirt with the margins of the eligibility every week
- Doesn't make you think about him every time you hear police sirens
And if the kid can play a little, that is obviously a huge bonus!
Wonder why so much space on this forum is devoted to character and culture if all we're talking is t-shirt slogans. Apparently, a lot of coaches are wasting a lot of time trying to teach character... Should just look to develop athletic skills, I suppose. Is it necessary to quantify attitude? Don't you just know a good one or a bad one when you see it?
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Post by 19delta on May 3, 2017 18:02:50 GMT -6
That probably looks great on a t-shirt but what does it really mean? And what's the difference between an average attitude and a great attitude? How do you quantify something like attitude? For me, a kid with a "great" attitude is one who: - Works hard in the weightroom and/or plays multiple sports
- Is liked by teammates and coaches
- Plays at the position he is needed, not necessarily at the position he wants
- Shows up on time and doesn't miss practice
- Doesn't flirt with the margins of the eligibility every week
- Doesn't make you think about him every time you hear police sirens
And if the kid can play a little, that is obviously a huge bonus!
Wonder why so much space on this forum is devoted to character and culture if all we're talking is t-shirt slogans. Apparently, a lot of coaches are wasting a lot of time trying to teach character... Should just look to develop athletic skills, I suppose. Is it necessary to quantify attitude? Don't you just know a good one or a bad one when you see it?I have already described what I feel is "great attitude". A kid who shows up on time, is reliable, works hard, and doesn't cause headaches has a great attitude as far as I am concerned. The problem is, for a lot of coaches, that is simply not enough. Unless a kid completely buys in 100% and drinks the coach's Kool-Aid, that kid runs the risk of getting labeled as having a "bad attitude". Kid can't make all the football summer activities because he is also playing baseball or basketball? That kid has a bad attitude. Kid can't make it to a weekend passing tournament because his parents had the audacity to schedule a vacation? That kid has a bad attitude. Kid is tired and sluggish on Wednesday after a 3.5-hour, Week 7 practice on a Tuesday night? That kid has a bad attitude. So, this discussion isn't really about "attitude". Instead, it is about an expectation communicated by many coaches that sends the message that if football isn't as important to the kid as it is to the coach, then that kid obviously has a "bad attitude".
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