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Post by airraider on May 2, 2007 10:26:34 GMT -6
I just ran upon this on aol video. After watching the video I think the coach should have done more. The coach was wrong in getting in his face, but a fact that was not mentioned on the video or in the story was the umpire more or less head butted the coach in the face with his mask. Then the coach more or less hit him. Kind of a push slap across the face mask. I think they both should be suspended, but the Umpire should not go unpunished. video.aol.com/video/caught-on-tape-coach-strikes-umpire/1899222 |
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Post by coachcoyote on May 2, 2007 20:46:33 GMT -6
Did you miss the push from behind by the coach as the umpire moved away from the confrontation, before the face action? Not correct by the umpire, but might have been tempted to do the same thing if he got in my face, and chances are, spit on him while arguing.
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Post by fbdoc on May 2, 2007 20:54:23 GMT -6
Complete stupidity. Can you say, Career Suicide?
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Post by coachmoore42 on May 2, 2007 21:49:58 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure it'll be hard for him to coach again, but it was pretty mild for him to lose his career over. The umpire head-butted him pretty solidly. He seemed to react out of self-defense and tried to push away what had hurt him. The one thing that may bury him is the fact that he touched the umpire first, right after he got tossed.
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Post by airraider on May 2, 2007 21:53:24 GMT -6
Did you miss the push from behind by the coach as the umpire moved away from the confrontation, before the face action? Not correct by the umpire, but might have been tempted to do the same thing if he got in my face, and chances are, spit on him while arguing. Im not condoning what the coach did at all, I am simply saying that the reff might as well bumped the end of a bat into his face. He more or less in my mind used it as a weapon. |
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Post by jhanawa on May 2, 2007 22:09:06 GMT -6
He should have kicked dirt on his plate, that alway's gets'em...  The sad thing is, it was just a heated moment that got a little out of control, not a lot. I don't think he pushed him so much as touched him to get his attention, and it looks like the ump intentionally struck the coach with his face mask. Bad deal on both guys, the sad part about today's world is that OJ can walk free and write a book about it, but this guy is crucified over little more than a bump. If this happened in the 50's both of them would go their seperate ways and nothing more would have been done about it. Our society is too quick to sue, too quick to judge and too quick to condemn common people and too quick to let the famous walk free. Yeah, the coach was wrong but not nearly so much as the "year of the bull deal", people lose context of what is really bad behaviour and just bad judgement in a spur of the moment situation. The coach has probably spent 20+ years helping kids and people and is going to get the shaft for 10 seconds of a heated conversation gone bad without the benefit of a trial. |
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Post by saintrad on May 2, 2007 22:23:09 GMT -6
Complete stupidity. Can you say, Career Suicide? nope, not career suicide...they just come to New Mexico and become state level representatives |
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Post by oguru on May 3, 2007 9:48:13 GMT -6
Being an umpire and then watching the video. I would say the first thing the umpire should have doen is take off his mask.When I throw people out I always take my amsk off. As well as whenever someone comes out to talk to me.
The coach was wron for hitting the umpire first. When the umpire hit him with the mask we was just getting in his face. Like I said he should have taken off the mask.
I dont have a problem with coaches questioning calls. But anyone who touches me is gone, and has to elave the park ASAP.Or there team forfeits,and I have had to force a team to forfeitbecause a fan refused to leave the premises. It's a elague rule the league I umpire in that they must elave the premises, which means get in their car and not return.
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Post by fbdoc on May 3, 2007 10:41:46 GMT -6
It might not be career suicide, but do any of you want to be that coach and have to explain the incident in your interview?
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Post by coachjim on May 4, 2007 0:04:33 GMT -6
I teach the use of force, identifying threats and what you can and can't do in those situations. The push from behind was criminal, you simply cannot just reach out and touch someone like that, legally. Furthermore, his demeanor and the coach's approach when he get's in the umpire's face (personal space and reactionary zone) was also justifiable cause for the umpire to defend himself as if being attacked. In my opinion, I would have had the coach arrested and the result of the court preceding would have been anger management classes.
It's a disgusting video and a good example of how to get yourself arrested or sued, or fired.
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Post by airraider on May 4, 2007 8:01:07 GMT -6
I teach the use of force, identifying threats and what you can and can't do in those situations. The push from behind was criminal, you simply cannot just reach out and touch someone like that, legally. Furthermore, his demeanor and the coach's approach when he get's in the umpire's face (personal space and reactionary zone) was also justifiable cause for the umpire to defend himself as if being attacked. In my opinion, I would have had the coach arrested and the result of the court preceding would have been anger management classes. It's a disgusting video and a good example of how to get yourself arrested or sued, or fired. I will call horse crap on all of that. He didnt push the umpire from behind. He merely touched him. Your response sounds like the mindset of a nation that has become pussa-fide and lawsuit happy. His "push" really looked like if you are standing in line for something and you get pushed and you try to avoid running into the person in front of you. I hardly call it a push. Now, hitting the guy in the face with your face mask, thats assault no matter how you cut it. |
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Post by airraider on May 4, 2007 8:03:22 GMT -6
And after watching it again, its not like he just got in his face with the mask and it happened to push into his face. He rared his head back and butted him in the face with it. I would have jumped all over him and I would have been in jail that night without a doubt because I would have beaten him severly.
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Post by lsrood on May 4, 2007 8:22:35 GMT -6
I saw the video as well and both the Umpire and the Coach were out of line. Two fine examples of how not to act for our student/athletes to see. It is okay to argue calls and for umpires/referees to answer/defend their decisions but touching on either side is out of bounds.
IMO both the coach and the umpire should be relieved of their duties. Since the coach already resigned I would hope the governing body for the umpire would take a similar action.
I was a HS softball head coach for 20 years and I know how frustrating it can be at times in regards to officiating, I only got tossed 3 times in 20 years and all 3 were my fault. It didn't help the team and I learned from the experiences. I tried then and try now to keep my arguments to the point and civil. I have found that if you treat the officials with respect, they will do the same to you.
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Post by coachjim on May 5, 2007 5:01:38 GMT -6
Airraider:
I agree with you on several points, especially considering where this country is going. Never-the-less, you cannot touch someone without their consent. While it seems harmless, you can be charged with assault. That's a fact, and you can be sued for anything. Doesn't mean that you will win or lose the case, but it will cost you thousands in fees, regardless.
I also agree that in review the touch isn't very persuading, regarding assault charges, but like you said, in this day and age, and what we have become, you just can't go around doing that anymore. I teach the classes, perhaps in your state, the laws are different.
It's funny, like in hockey when they beat the crap out of each other, it's tolerated and legal (usually.) I don't think either will be charged with anything, because it's sports. Just don't go doing that to anyone in the real world though. They will punch you back, but in the wallet. And no one likes getting hit there, that's where it hurts.
In my line of work, I had to scrap a few nights ago with a guy who said he was into "ultimate fighting." He threw the first punch. Now, he's trying to punch his way out of a cell. Good luck to him with that. I'm no puss, just paranoid, I guess. You won't see me pushing anyone from behind. Even in sports. If it's not a crime it's definately cowardly. IMHO, coach.
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Post by timtheenchanter on May 10, 2007 13:45:24 GMT -6
One of the reasons I got into martial arts was because of overactive parents around the football field. I haven't ever looked for a fight, but there are some unstable people that have wierd views of what is appropriate at a sporting event. I have never understood why spectators feel the obligation or entitlement to assault (verbally or physically) coaches, players, or officials.
I watched the video and see two individuals who are far more concerned with being shown up that with acting like adults. I don't see anything by either person that warrants charges of assault.
This is a part of the baseball culture and is one of the reasons I don't work anymore baseball.
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Post by wingt74 on May 11, 2007 6:55:50 GMT -6
Being an umpire and then watching the video. I would say the first thing the umpire should have doen is take off his mask.. Really? You're not afraid of a crazy coach throwing a punch? |
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Post by coachmathis on May 11, 2007 7:19:24 GMT -6
Cardinal rule of coaching or participating in athletics, NEVER PUT YOUR HANDS ON AN OFFICIAL!! This case is kind of that simple. The coach initiated the physical contact with what appeared to be a slight push from behind. Now when the umpire head butts the coach then all beats are off, IMO, the coach should be allowed to react how he felt he should best handle the situation
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Post by timtheenchanter on May 11, 2007 8:43:39 GMT -6
Both of them should have walked away. There is never a situation when all bets are off. All that happens is the tempers escalate and degenerate into a potentially dangerous situation. The coach got dumped. He should have left the field. The umpire should have walked away and let his partner handle the situation and not have let his emotions get the best of him.
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Post by oguru on May 11, 2007 11:45:11 GMT -6
If a coach throws a punch he is going to get the4 {censored} sued out of him,as well as get thrown in jail.
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Post by Coach Goodnight on May 11, 2007 12:08:28 GMT -6
I agree that the coach should not have grabbed, pushed, pulled or whatever you may call it, but for a baseball offical to turn and put the face mask in the coaches face and then headbutt him, wsa also uncalled for. I think as one of the other ssaid, they both should be relieved of their positions.
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Post by oguru on May 13, 2007 16:45:32 GMT -6
I umpired a game yesterday and told the coach that he had just amde his second visit to the mound and had one left the rest of the game.
Between the next inning he came out to me and put his arm on me. I quickly moved away and immediately restricted him to the bench he was irate as I told him he had no right to touch myself or my partner. He then continued to kick dirt and I threw him out of the game. He should have known better then to put his hands on me or any other umpire.
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Post by airraider on May 13, 2007 18:24:51 GMT -6
please explain put his arm on you more.
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Post by fbairattack on May 13, 2007 20:46:59 GMT -6
i think it matters how the exchange is going. if the coach came out and was not upset he was just putting his arm on you then i dont see the big deal..if there had been any tension prior to that exchange then coach was out of line and should have known better...
As far as the coach in the video..
he shouldnt have touched the ump and the ump shouldnt have head butted him...its a sad sad example of how a bad situation can get out of control in a hurry
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Post by oguru on May 17, 2007 13:26:05 GMT -6
it clearly states in all NFHS rule books that AT NO TIME SHALL ANY COACH PUT THEIR HANDS ON ANY PART OF THE OFFICIALS/UMPIRES.This is a rule I follow very strictly as a coach,and expect the same when I umpire. I ahve to kicked one guy out in football because of it,and know one out in baseball because of it.
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Post by timtheenchanter on May 17, 2007 15:00:16 GMT -6
guru, I guess things here in Texas are a touch different. The NCAA has a rule that prohibits contacting an official. The actual reference is:
Contacting an Official
ARTICLE 4. Intentionally contacting a game official physically during the
game by persons subject to the rules is a foul.
(9.2.4)
Technically, that would include any contact. The spirit of the rule, however, is to prevent coaches and players acting agressively toward officials. If I take a literal/legalistic approach, I can dump a coach for putting his hand on my shoulder to get my attention. That isn't the intent. It depends on the type of contact. I am there to call a game, not to prove any superiority. If no malice is intended, none should be extended. In otherwords, just because I CAN call a foul/enforce a rule, doesn't mean that I SHOULD.
Make sense?
I have never been a coach, just a player and an official, but I don't see any reason for tossing a coach for "any" contact. That isn't the intent of the rule.
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