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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 21:14:54 GMT -6
When taking over a new program that's been a doormat and has a lot of cultural problems to straighten out, how important do you feel it is to win early in order to get buy in?
Basically, is the first year at a major rebuilding project a "grace period" year where winning isn't as important as laying the foundation, or is it important for a new HC to be flexible in what he wants in order to win more games that first year so he can get that buy-in to lay the foundation?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 15, 2017 21:17:45 GMT -6
@coacharnold I don't think there is a broad answer to that. Each place will have different factors that influence the answer
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 21:30:16 GMT -6
@coacharnold I don't think there is a broad answer to that. Each place will have different factors that influence the answer That's what I was thinking. I mostly just want to get a discussion started on what peoples' thoughts are and what their rationale is, as well as experiences that people have had.
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Post by brophy on Jan 15, 2017 22:41:20 GMT -6
if you could "win" in the first year, why didn't the last guy do that?
I assume, this is why you got the job in the first place.
If you're thinking you're going to turn a losing team into a winner in 2 months simply by calling different plays, I'm not sure you're talking about "program building" (i.e. building not a single season team, but a feeder-to-varsity PROGRAM).
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Post by aceback76 on Jan 15, 2017 22:43:06 GMT -6
When taking over a new program that's been a doormat and has a lot of cultural problems to straighten out, how important do you feel it is to win early in order to get buy in? Basically, is the first year at a major rebuilding project a "grace period" year where winning isn't as important as laying the foundation, or is it important for a new HC to be flexible in what he wants in order to win more games that first year so he can get that buy-in to lay the foundation? Read "Bear" Bryant's "Building A Championship Football Team". He says being realistic it takes 5 years to build a program properly! Of course - you want to win as quickly as possible but that isn't always "realisdtic"!
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Post by s73 on Jan 15, 2017 23:06:49 GMT -6
IMO,
"winning" is defined differently for different places. My 1st HC position we won 1 game and it was a big deal bc they hadn't won in almost 3 years. The next year we won 2, then 4 and then 7.
The general impression I got from that time was that the community was pretty happy with how things progressed. But...that school NEVER had a good FB tradition.
On the other hand, if you take over a program that used to win and hasn't recently, then I think people tend to be less patient.
That's my perspective anyway.
The reality is the only one who REALLY knows what realistic expectations are will be the HC and his staff and IMO that should eb the real focus. I think the best thing a new HC can do is shut out the "noise" and get to work.
JMO>
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Post by blb on Jan 16, 2017 5:43:43 GMT -6
There are no more "Five year plans."
Guys are getting fired after three now.
arnold, the key word in your question is "major" (rebuilding project).
I think it's vital you show improvement and that you demonstrate a vision, a plan for how to make the program successful.
If it's a major rebuild, it may not be possible to win first year. In fact you may take a step back in record while laying your foundation.
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CoachLickert
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Post by CoachLickert on Jan 16, 2017 6:19:46 GMT -6
When taking over a new program that's been a doormat and has a lot of cultural problems to straighten out, how important do you feel it is to win early in order to get buy in? Basically, is the first year at a major rebuilding project a "grace period" year where winning isn't as important as laying the foundation, or is it important for a new HC to be flexible in what he wants in order to win more games that first year so he can get that buy-in to lay the foundation? In my experiences, a coach needs to set the foundation for future success with the cores of the program and setting high expectations with policies and procedures. My philosophy is "it's easy to loosen up, but it is difficult to tighten up." If you suspend a kid for missing practice, the kids will learn they have to be at practice and stop missing. If you let a kid who missed practice play in the game, the kids will learn it is okay to miss practice and continue to miss. It is that simple. Build the foundation for success in the future. The program will not grow from cutting corners just to win games in year 1 because it will set the bar lower if you are sacrificing high expectations. From a winning standpoint, the goal should be to improve on the previous year among other goals. When I took over a program that had 9 wins the previous 5 years with a 1 and 9 record the year prior, I focused on improving aspects that lead to winning. For example, we set a goal to double the points scored and decrease the points allowed by 30. They had only scored 55 points the year before and gave up 331. We nearly tripled the points scored in year 1, cut the points allowed by 13 and won 3 games. So we tripled the win total and tripled the points scored. Our kids were bought in to the program because we were also more competitive. The kids and community saw more success and started to believe. This made it easy to tell them they improved without doing much work in the off-season, and convince them of how much better they could get if they dedicated to the off season program. We lost more games in years 1 and 2 then we would have with lower expectations, but all the sudden we won a game with a bunch of subs because 5 kids were suspended for missing practice and the light bulb went off... "I better get to work because they don't need me." Year 3 we won 6 games and made the playoffs for the first time in 10 or so years. The year after I left for a new job, they won 8 games. I still regret that leaving that job before we could truly reap the benefits of the hard work we put in. In the end, winning games is not as important in year 1 or 2 as building the foundation for success. Achieving little victories that may not be in the win loss column, but show improvement is all you need to gain buy-in early on.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 16, 2017 7:48:32 GMT -6
We won one game my first year, two my second. Then we won six and went on a good run for a few years. The key is growth.
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Post by joelee on Jan 16, 2017 8:29:57 GMT -6
When taking over a new program that's been a doormat and has a lot of cultural problems to straighten out, how important do you feel it is to win early in order to get buy in? Basically, is the first year at a major rebuilding project a "grace period" year where winning isn't as important as laying the foundation, or is it important for a new HC to be flexible in what he wants in order to win more games that first year so he can get that buy-in to lay the foundation? Coach the team you have, not the team you wish you had. I'm not saying not to try to raise accountability or get excited about young kids or anything like that, BUT. A. Coach the seniors you have. Put effort into learning about them and earning their trust. You may be wasting your time with some or most but they are on the team and deserve your best. B. Maybe you want to sit in base defense, play technique and destroy blocks, but you have a weak team right now with poor fundamentals. Maybe try to make up for some of that by being more aggressive than you want to get them moving to get them going downhill to get the occasional big play. I don't think you are some kind of traitor. Keep teaching fundamentals, keep lifting weights. C. Maybe you want to be downhill and smash mouth on offense but you are small and weak. Use more misdirection and lateral movement and conflict concepts. I don't think you are some kind of traitor. Keep preaching physicality and keep lifting weights. D. Maybe you know to be a regional or state competitor in the future you will have to platoon to do that. On this team you have low numbers and only 2 assistants you trust. This team deserves to be coached up now in a functional way while you keep what you want to evolve to in mind for later. BUT coach the team you have not the team you wish you had. They deserve your best.
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Post by murdr on Jan 16, 2017 8:45:39 GMT -6
I'd say that you may have unrelenting administrators who don't know that rebuilding takes more than 0 years.
They don't understand that major program overhauls can take some time.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 16, 2017 9:01:30 GMT -6
Showing signs of improvement is most important in year one. At the end of the season you want to be saying we are headed in the right direction.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 16, 2017 9:30:40 GMT -6
I also think a critical aspect is "what"needs to be overhauled. From my personal playing experience on a 2-8,2-8,2-8, 1-9 team (where the first 2-8 team was actually an OK team that just got worn down in games, and the 1-9 team had 9 out of the 11 teams on the schedule making the playoffs) had someone simply gotten a year round lifting program installed we would probably have been around .500. That said, one major issue preventing that was that all the coaches were coaching 3-4 sports.
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Post by shotgunfivewide55 on Jan 16, 2017 11:49:04 GMT -6
1. Promise nothing, work on getting numbers up and making the team more competitive, grades, attendance and discipline in your program and in school 2. Build relationships with ad, principals and superintendent if possible, times get rough you need allies 3. Don't make promises , I cannot say that enough! 4. Manage expectations, under play your team but be positive, it is better to be the surprise team rather than the one that promises to much 5. Be seen out in the community, b seen at jv games, freshmen games, middle school games and pee wee on saturday, not coaching but getting to know the other coaches and kids, wear your teams gear
Ps - all of these lessons have been learned the hard way, good luck
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Post by mariner42 on Jan 16, 2017 12:14:44 GMT -6
Showing signs of improvement is most important in year one. At the end of the season you want to be saying we are headed in the right direction. Agreed. My boss inherited a program that went 5-4-1 and was 4th in league. The next year we went 6-4, 2nd in league, and then lost in the first round of playoffs. Record-wise we barely improved, but the difference in the program was night and day. Shoot, even just looking at the kids' bodies there was an unbelievable improvement in what they looked like.
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Post by sweep26 on Jan 16, 2017 12:26:40 GMT -6
My first suggestion would be to have a realistic, definitive plan going in and make sure that your Administrators are on-board with this plan...if not don't take the job. This plan does not have to be a pie in the sky type of a plan that requires a bunch of new this or new that...you just have to have a plan that can demonstrate measurable improvements.
Then, if you have good people skills and you are a good coach from an X's & O's standpoint...I am pretty certain that you will be able to demonstrate measurable improvements in the program at the end of the first year. These improvements may, or may not show up in the win-loss column but I am guessing that, more often than not, they will. Some of the obvious areas of measurable improvement might be GPA's, Attendance, Attitudes/Citizenship/Discipline Referrals, improved participation #'s and better retention, fewer complaints from parents, etc. I am sure that there are many more that might be extremely pertinent to specific situations...if they are important, identify them and if these problems are controllable from your position, make a concerted effort to remedy them.
Plan your work, and work your plan!!
Rebuilding can be very gratifying, but it is not for everyone. If you are thinking primarily about your career won-loss record or that this is a golden opportunity for career advancement, don't do it.
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Post by shocktroop34 on Jan 16, 2017 12:29:05 GMT -6
I believe the biggest factor is support. Specifically, ones administration, and boosters (if the boosters are an influential group).
Nothing else really matters, IMO. Whether you are inheriting a good or bad program, if you don't have the support from the right people, it will all come crumbling down anyway.
My first job, I took over a team that won two games in three years. In the three years I was there, I went 2-7, 4-5, 4-5. During my tenure, I never felt like my job was in jeopardy, and I received support when the situation called for it.
As others have stated, you need time to build. That said time is only afforded by a certain group of people. If you don't get it, you'll know sooner than later.
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Post by coachdawhip on Jan 16, 2017 13:09:20 GMT -6
I have been a HC now for 4 years.
The previous HC went 6-4 6-4 5-6, lost 1st round of the playoffs.
I came in and went 5-6, lost 1st round of the playoffs my 1st year (I did not win in my 1st year more than the guy before, I just did the best I could and laid my foundation for my vision of the program) That's all you can do!
Since then we have been 7-4 (third round of the playoffs 1st time in school history) 9-3 (1st region championship in 27 years) 6-4-1 this year.
Winning the 1st year means what? If I were to GOD forbid get fired or if I left.
I would hope the next guy does it his way and doesn't say if I don't win 7 next year, I ain't being successful.
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Post by **** on Jan 16, 2017 13:33:22 GMT -6
Winning is #1. Have to get buy in and kids to come out in the following years.
As much as people say scheme won't win you games it can. Can being the key word. When I first got to my current school and watched their games of the previous year it was shocking how unsound they were on defense. The offense they ran did not fit the kids/athletes they had and were unsuccessful at almost everything they did. Putting in a sound defense and the UBSW gave us an opportunity to win games and go 6-4 that first year.
It takes a year in a good S&C program to start chugging out some athletes. The second year we went 9-2 and third year went 10-2. Athletes will win you championships, but a good scheme can win you games vs roughly equal competition.
First year you don't necessarily want to just play for the future. In the grand scheme of things it's too late for the seniors but odds are they provide you the best opportunity to win, and winning now is most important.
Low numbers can be an issue in every aspect of the program, have to do the best you can with that.
Discipline wise you have to be firm and fair but not super demanding like you can after you start winning.
In the end... winning cures everything.
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Post by blb on Jan 17, 2017 6:56:40 GMT -6
@coacharnold , Bottom line - I would not be "flexible" in order to try to win an extra game or two in first year.
Took over one school that was 1-17 previous two years. Won our first six, went 7-2, 8-1.
At another they had been 6-22 previous three years. We went 6-4, 9-3, 9-2, with first district championship in school history and first conference championship in over 30 years. That first year we beat one rival for first time in 18 years and our archrival for first time in 21 years.
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Jan 17, 2017 8:28:33 GMT -6
I'll try to attempt to say what hasn't been said...
1.) Build a good relationship with the seniors. They are the voice of your team. Even if they aren't your future, building a good relationship with them creates positive vibes and envy for some people to want to play all four years. I've seen situations turn sour because the HC couldn't set a positive relationship with his 1st class of seniors.
2.) Recruit every male in the building. Chances are, you don't have great numbers. My senior season of HS, we had won 3 games in two seasons before hiring a coach. I was one of 6 seniors to play for him in his 1st season. Now he's got almost 20, despite having to compete with a perennial soccer program in a school of 500 kids. As the years go by, you may have the luxury of not having to recruit every male. But for now, selling your brand to the school is really important.
3.) Scheme does matter. I'd say about half of the time you walk into a truly AWFUL situation, they were probably running unsound offenses and defenses. Run what you like, fit it to your personnel, and make everything include a rhyme and a reason.
4.) Form a system of discipline and accountability. Start with the senior class. If they start slacking, it carries on. Unexcused absences are a sin. Everyone lifts, everyone practices, everyone watches film. Dress sharp on gameday, don't fool around in class, sit in the front row(s).
5.) Make football fun. This is IMO the hardest part of creating a good culture. You want to have systems of accountability, discipline, etc. but you need to make sure your kids love it too. I get the saying "winning cures all", but that's likely not happening your first two years. You have to balance it out. If you make it too military-like, kids will begin to dislike you and dread coming to practice. If you're too loosely-run, kids will lose focus and start to see you as more of a peer than leader. Of course, do what fits your personality the best, but I prefer to keep things mostly business-like and add in a little bit of fun to lighten the mood.
6.) Create new traditions. Do whatever you can to let everyone know that this is a new era of your program. Get the sour taste of seasons past out of the players mouths. This can be anything from what music you play in the weight room (country music Thursday here) to weekly post-practice meetings with your team that have nothing to do with football (we eat at one of the seniors houses after practice on Thursday nights).
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Post by cwaltsmith on Jan 17, 2017 8:41:36 GMT -6
I think it is hugely important to have "SOME" success in year 1. Its not always possible, & building a good program can happpen without doing it. In todays landscape, you dont have long to prove your the right fit. Early success helps bring excitement and buy in to what you are trying to do. I do agree with BLB tho... dont sell you core beliefs out to keep a kid that might help you win a game or 2 that first year, bc it will cost you down the road. Set examples early, but winning early does help IMHO.
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Post by mnike23 on Jan 17, 2017 9:00:56 GMT -6
if you can, then do so. DC this past year on a brand new staff taking over a 1-9,2-8, 3-7 previous 3 years.
we come in, again 100% brand new to school. 1 holdover was a volunteer for 1 season. everyone else is new. went 6-4 made playoffs for 2nd time in schools 15 yr history. we won on discipline, organization, a great plan so to speak, alot of hard work.
my previous stop as a HC. took a doormat school(75 wins in 25 years doormat). previous guy went 1-9 in his only season, guy before him was there 6 yrs as HC and 8/9 as asst. his best record was 5-5. 3 yr run of 4-6,5-5,4-6 was best run in since early 80s. if you can believe that. we went 2-8 and won our exhib game (for a 3rd) to start season. you would have thought we won the superbowl that game. kids dancing on the 50, the whole 9. more about organization, getting buy in, foundational things. create your structure. create your building blocks of the program. what are you going to be about. wins will come at some point. went 3-7 the next fall, and had 3 super kids who would return for senior and junior yrs the next season and I thought for sure we would win 5,6 games. fell apart, coaching issues more than likely, underperformed(although we had a fantastic january to august off season, qb who is a stud at a juco, had 450 yds of offense in spring game good) went 1-9, some serious on field issues, you know when the mind falls behind the heart and they care so much and want to fight after every game because they all knew how hard we worked for 3 years type things. new principal retired ad 5 year plan was out the door, right along with me.
if you get 5yrs, you better make the most of years 3-5. that will be about all you get if not. win all you can! anytime you can!
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Post by coachcb on Jan 17, 2017 9:09:45 GMT -6
I took over a program that hadn't won a game in five years. We didn't win a game that first year but we played several tight, competitive games and that breathed some life into the program. Our numbers were up the next year. We won two games the next year and played a few more tight games. So, as brophy pointed out, it's all relative to the program. The bottom line is you need to be better than you were before, however you define that.
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Post by aceback76 on Jan 17, 2017 9:39:57 GMT -6
There are no more "Five year plans." Guys are getting fired after three now. arnold, the key word in your question is "major" (rebuilding project). I think it's vital you show improvement and that you demonstrate a vision, a plan for how to make the program successful. If it's a major rebuild, it may not be possible to win first year. In fact you may take a step back in record while laying your foundation. There are a hell of a lot of coaches out there today with "5 Year Contracts". They may get fired after 3 years, but they will get paid for 5!!!
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Post by blb on Jan 17, 2017 9:46:52 GMT -6
There are a hell of a lot of coaches out there today with "5 Year Contracts". They may get fired after 3 years, but they will get paid for 5!!!
Maybe where you coach, but I have never heard of a coach in our state who was not on a one-year or "year-to-year" contract, that had a multi-year agreement.
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Post by mnike23 on Jan 17, 2017 10:05:50 GMT -6
There are no more "Five year plans." Guys are getting fired after three now. arnold, the key word in your question is "major" (rebuilding project). I think it's vital you show improvement and that you demonstrate a vision, a plan for how to make the program successful. If it's a major rebuild, it may not be possible to win first year. In fact you may take a step back in record while laying your foundation. There are a hell of a lot of coaches out there today with "5 Year Contracts". They may get fired after 3 years, but they will get paid for 5!!! in high school? where is that! i want that gig, no dam doubt about that. in florida, if you got grandfathered in, you still can have a professional services contract(continuing contract). if you change counties or came in after 2012 i think, you are an annual employee and will never be able to get a continuing contract again. every administrator/county admin will tell you that your teaching job and your coaching job are not tied together. BS....
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Post by aceback76 on Jan 17, 2017 10:14:22 GMT -6
There are a hell of a lot of coaches out there today with "5 Year Contracts". They may get fired after 3 years, but they will get paid for 5!!! in high school? where is that! i want that gig, no dam doubt about that. in florida, if you got grandfathered in, you still can have a professional services contract(continuing contract). if you change counties or came in after 2012 i think, you are an annual employee and will never be able to get a continuing contract again. every administrator/county admin will tell you that your teaching job and your coaching job are not tied together. BS.... Nobody said High School. There are College Coaches on here as well. In College you need 5 years to recruit the "right" kind of player. In Virginia HS football, Private Schools may issue multiple-year contracts if they choose (I HAD one). Public Schools don't! In either event - you take a position with an Administration that is "realistic" enough to realize that you must build from a "sound foundation", and that it MAY take time (if they pressure you to win the first year - don't consider the position)! I took over six losing programs = in 4 we won the first year (including one State Championship), and in one we broke even in the first year, and in the other we started a long winning streak midway thru the second year. Been there & done that!
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Post by mnike23 on Jan 17, 2017 10:28:30 GMT -6
in high school? where is that! i want that gig, no dam doubt about that. in florida, if you got grandfathered in, you still can have a professional services contract(continuing contract). if you change counties or came in after 2012 i think, you are an annual employee and will never be able to get a continuing contract again. every administrator/county admin will tell you that your teaching job and your coaching job are not tied together. BS.... Nobody said High School. There are College Coaches on here as well. In College you need 5 years to recruit the "right" kind of player. In Virginia HS football, Private Schools may issue multiple-year contracts if they choose (I HAD one). Public Schools don't! In either event - you take a position with an Administration that is "realistic" enough to realize that you must build from a "sound foundation", and that it MAY take time (if they pressure you to win the first year - don't consider the position)! I took over six losing programs = in 4 we won the first year (including one State Championship), and in one we broke even in the first year, and in the other we went on a long winning streak midway thru the second year. Been there & done that! yep. took over a 125 yr old school, perinnial winner. ol red, the principal didnt hire me first applied, hired another dude. i stayed on as his OC. good guy, would coach for him any day he called me, in any part of the country and we only worked together 1 year. he got fired and she appointed me head coach. said if she knew how much passion, etc i would have gotten job. she left in june, I was fired in october by a new regime. fast forward 5 years took over a door mat as HC principal moved to new school in july of that year next guy was awesome, he was too good for our school 2 years later he is a supt of another county new principal and....new AD fire me after 3 seasons. high school ball is turning into college mentality. win at all costs, regardless. win and keep job, to hell with getting kids to school or teaching young men about being an adult. would die to have what my coach had,,,,,35 yrs at 1 school, losing record in that span(dont want that part(only by like 10 wins or so)), win games everyones happy, winning season even better, lose games-get em next time coach, losing seasons--have a good offseason and recharge and get better. where are those jobs at?
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Post by aceback76 on Jan 17, 2017 10:36:50 GMT -6
Nobody said High School. There are College Coaches on here as well. In College you need 5 years to recruit the "right" kind of player. In Virginia HS football, Private Schools may issue multiple-year contracts if they choose (I HAD one). Public Schools don't! In either event - you take a position with an Administration that is "realistic" enough to realize that you must build from a "sound foundation", and that it MAY take time (if they pressure you to win the first year - don't consider the position)! I took over six losing programs = in 4 we won the first year (including one State Championship), and in one we broke even in the first year, and in the other we went on a long winning streak midway thru the second year. Been there & done that! yep. took over a 125 yr old school, perinnial winner. ol red, the principal didnt hire me first applied, hired another dude. i stayed on as his OC. good guy, would coach for him any day he called me, in any part of the country and we only worked together 1 year. he got fired and she appointed me head coach. said if she knew how much passion, etc i would have gotten job. she left in june, I was fired in october by a new regime. fast forward 5 years took over a door mat as HC principal moved to new school in july of that year next guy was awesome, he was too good for our school 2 years later he is a supt of another county new principal and....new AD fire me after 3 seasons. high school ball is turning into college mentality. win at all costs, regardless. win and keep job, to hell with getting kids to school or teaching young men about being an adult. would die to have what my coach had,,,,,35 yrs at 1 school, losing record in that span(dont want that part(only by like 10 wins or so)), win games everyones happy, winning season even better, lose games-get em next time coach, losing seasons--have a good offseason and recharge and get better. where are those jobs at? There are good & bad High School coaching jobs everywhere. In most of the South (ACC & SEC territory) High School Football is a 'way of life". Facts of "Good" High School "Coaching situations": 1. The better the "situations" are = the more competition you will have for the position (& the more "credentials you will have to "bring to the table"). 2. The higher you go up the coaching ladder (to bigger & better positions) = the less security you will have!!!
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