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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 11, 2017 9:43:06 GMT -6
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 11, 2017 9:53:31 GMT -6
Not a bad concept, but I think they're falling into the trap most leagues make of putting the cart way before the horse. The model for junior football exists and it's fairly successful. Doing it with more cash, facilities, staff would be the next step, and then small amounts of money, growing it over years. Until the brand becomes accepted they just have to deal with the fact that it'll be JUCO dropouts.
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Post by coolhandluke on Jan 11, 2017 10:01:06 GMT -6
Yes, I have thought it is only a matter of time before you see American sports morph into something more akin to the European club model. The NCAA model is on its way out, and if I had a son who had the talent to play at the pro level in a sport such as basketball, for instance, I would want him to go overseas and get paid to play instead of playing in college. If his career does not work out, he still has the money to be able to go to college after basketball is over. Moreover, he would be a more mature adult when attending college and be able to really choose what he wants to major in, instead of being shoe-horned into a major that does not interfere with athletics. Here is my other question: what does academic prowess have to do with being able to earn a living playing sports? Do you think Barcelona gives a rip how well Leonel Messi can analyze a sonnet? |
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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 11, 2017 10:17:20 GMT -6
Not a bad concept, but I think they're falling into the trap most leagues make of putting the cart way before the horse. The model for junior football exists and it's fairly successful. Doing it with more cash, facilities, staff would be the next step, and then small amounts of money, growing it over years. Until the brand becomes accepted they just have to deal with the fact that it'll be JUCO dropouts. Not sure it would be JUCO dropouts...How many kids would take the 50K now plus any "side" jobs they could get. |
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Post by wingtol on Jan 11, 2017 10:38:26 GMT -6
Seems like a decent second option for guys who want to go that route but in reality can it survive? To be a true other step to the NFL I would think they need to pull in some pretty good talent right off the bat, are you really gonna get top tier pro potential talent to buy into it? Say an 18 year old kids signs with a team, league folds in a year or two now what happens to that kid? Can't play in college cause he took money so they just wait around till they are draft eligible while other guys compete at a high level for scouts? Seems like a huge risk for a true top talent to take with a start up league.
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jeremiahd86
Freshmen Member
Poise Gentlemen... Champs Dont Choke
Posts: 40
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Post by jeremiahd86 on Jan 11, 2017 10:38:40 GMT -6
I think it has its place. Supplemental draft kind of guys is who I think would make a good fit. Im not sure if it would be good for guys to go there straight out of high school but i think there is a place for it if they have good coaching.
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Post by fantom on Jan 11, 2017 10:42:24 GMT -6
They're going to pay for college on what's left over from $50,000 a year? |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 11, 2017 10:50:40 GMT -6
Well, it's either this or the NFL starts drafting kids straight out of high school the way other sports do. That's basically what this is and it could turn into a great farm-league system for the NFL.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 11, 2017 10:59:47 GMT -6
Not a bad concept, but I think they're falling into the trap most leagues make of putting the cart way before the horse. The model for junior football exists and it's fairly successful. Doing it with more cash, facilities, staff would be the next step, and then small amounts of money, growing it over years. Until the brand becomes accepted they just have to deal with the fact that it'll be JUCO dropouts. Not sure it would be JUCO dropouts...How many kids would take the 50K now plus any "side" jobs they could get. Because I don't believe they'll be able to pay kids $50,000 a year off the bat, considering startup costs on infrastructure and facilities and with no expectations of revenues the first year. |
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Post by fantom on Jan 11, 2017 11:09:08 GMT -6
Not sure it would be JUCO dropouts...How many kids would take the 50K now plus any "side" jobs they could get. Because I don't believe they'll be able to pay kids $50,000 a year off the bat, considering startup costs on infrastructure and facilities and with no expectations of revenues the first year. Is $50,000 really $50,000 or are they taking that figure, dividing it into what that figure would be per week and paying a weekly salary per game? |
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Post by mnike23 on Jan 11, 2017 11:09:13 GMT -6
read it this morning on the scoop.
here is a question.
how long can the players play in the league?
so its for guys around college ages. 3 years or so.
some guys, and why wouldnt you,
lets play july august for 50k for 20yrs, have a side gig, and thats what i do. and dont tell me you wouldnt take your teaching salary of roughly 50k and work 2 months a year. straight faced liar.
you can live on 50k, most of us do anyways.
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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 11, 2017 11:23:47 GMT -6
Because I don't believe they'll be able to pay kids $50,000 a year off the bat, considering startup costs on infrastructure and facilities and with no expectations of revenues the first year. Is $50,000 really $50,000 or are they taking that figure, dividing it into what that figure would be per week and paying a weekly salary per game? thats a good question..I am assuming the league would just have one owner and manage all the teams. you would think they would be able to get an espn contract. I would assume they would draw better than college basketball pre march madness. each team have 40 players x 50000 equal 2 million another 1 million for expenses times 6 teams equall 18 million, say 20 million to be safe..I think it is doable |
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Post by tiger46 on Jan 11, 2017 11:28:37 GMT -6
50k a year, straight out of high school? If I didn't have enough skill to be in the NFL but, enough to make a decent living playing sports, I'd certainly take that job. Not to mention that there's probably quite a lot of D1 2nd & 3rd stringers with crappy degree plans that realize that they're not destined to go to the NFL. Why not leave school and try something different that may hone your skills through another venue while getting paid?
I really hope it works out for them. I would love for there to be an organization that may, eventually, help break some of the power of the NCAA. I'd imagine that D3 & D2 schools would start to feel the pinch before the D1 powers would, however.
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Post by coolhandluke on Jan 11, 2017 11:31:15 GMT -6
They're going to pay for college on what's left over from $50,000 a year? The season lasts for 2 months in the summer and he gets 50K for it? You could absolutely use whatever is left over for 2 months living costs to pay for college. Average tuition, room/meals, and books at an in-state public school will be $24,600/year. I would tell my son to take this deal in a heartbeat. What if traditional college is not for him? He can take that money and instead attend a trade school that may be more suited to his ability/passion. I do not believe that the only pathway to success is a 4 year degree, as evidenced by the shortage of skilled workers we have here in the US. By playing in a league like this as opposed to going the NCAA route, it gives one more choice in selecting a career field. |
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Post by M4 on Jan 11, 2017 11:33:47 GMT -6
I read on USA Today that the league will have year round activities similar to the NFL (off season OTA's etc).
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Post by chi5hi on Jan 11, 2017 11:35:13 GMT -6
I'm thinking that the former WFL, semi-pro leagues, Arena football, etc. have tried to fill this niche. IDK...the popularity of football and its venues have already settled in, I think, from Pop Warner to Professional.
Although...I did like WFL games where the cheerleaders were up in the stands giving lap-dances...maybe we could just bring that back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 11:45:38 GMT -6
My question is how they expect this league to be economically viable. Football is a very expensive sport already and if $50k a year is truly the average salary, then they're going to struggle just to sign the paychecks. The NFL has little incentive in paying for this when the NCAA already operates as their farm system for free. They may gripe about how players "aren't prepared" for pro football, but it's on them to teach them the "pro football way."
Setting it in the summer so it won't have to compete with the NFL, College, or even HS football for an audience is smart, but they'll still run into the issue of having to sell this "minor league" to fans to support teams they don't care about which are full of young players they've never heard of. There's just no way around this being perceived as an inferior product compared to what the NCAA or NFL puts on. It's not even guys who've been cut--it's guys who've never done anything, running the same cookie cutter stuff that makes the NFL so boring to watch.
Many college programs with extensive alumni networks, corporate sponsorships, and thousands of students operate on a loss and they don't spend an average of $50k per player. The Arena League has actually managed to build something of a brand with a fraction of the overhead this league will have and even they struggle to stay afloat.
I also suspect that it won't be that easy for them to recruit players to it. Making $50k a year at 18 or 19 is nice, but it would be in obscurity in a league that pro scouts are sure to look at as inferior to the Power 5 or even FCS. Compare that to the prestigue and exposure even a marginal student athlete (who could eek by academically a with a lot of help) would get from playing at FSU or Alabama. Sure, there'll be some big time washouts who can't hack it in school and would be interested in this league, but is it enough to fill multiple teams? I doubt that very much.
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Post by mnike23 on Jan 11, 2017 11:48:40 GMT -6
50k a year, straight out of high school? If I didn't have enough skill to be in the NFL but, enough to make a decent living playing sports, I'd certainly take that job. Not to mention that there's probably quite a lot of D1 2nd & 3rd stringers with crappy degree plans that realize that they're not destined to go to the NFL. Why not leave school and try something different that may hone your skills through another venue while getting paid? I really hope it works out for them. I would love for there to be an organization that may, eventually, help break some of the power of the NCAA. I'd imagine that D3 & D2 schools would start to feel the pinch before the D1 powers would, however. and by the sounds of it, its only july august. probably start camp in june ish |
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Post by fantom on Jan 11, 2017 12:05:58 GMT -6
50k a year, straight out of high school? If I didn't have enough skill to be in the NFL but, enough to make a decent living playing sports, I'd certainly take that job. Not to mention that there's probably quite a lot of D1 2nd & 3rd stringers with crappy degree plans that realize that they're not destined to go to the NFL. Why not leave school and try something different that may hone your skills through another venue while getting paid? I really hope it works out for them. I would love for there to be an organization that may, eventually, help break some of the power of the NCAA. I'd imagine that D3 & D2 schools would start to feel the pinch before the D1 powers would, however. That's not the kind of guy that they want. It's a developmental league. They're looking for guys with NFL potential who don't want to go to college. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 11, 2017 12:07:46 GMT -6
Is $50,000 really $50,000 or are they taking that figure, dividing it into what that figure would be per week and paying a weekly salary per game? thats a good question..I am assuming the league would just have one owner and manage all the teams. you would think they would be able to get an espn contract. I would assume they would draw better than college basketball pre march madness. each team have 40 players x 50000 equal 2 million another 1 million for expenses times 6 teams equall 18 million, say 20 million to be safe..I think it is doable That's player costs yes, but then there are staff costs. If you want ex-NFL names as coaches they don't come cheap. Easy million a year there per team. Front office costs could run another million. Overhead becomes a big cost, they'll have to rent out a decent stadium even if they don't fill it, just to solidify their brand. It seems like they want to base out of LA, nothing will be cheap. Most of the stadia are grass and probably won't be interested in hosting two football games a week all summer. The biggest cost is going to be facilities. To compete with major programs they'll need to at least give the illusion that they offer a better TCP. So the "salary" covers, in principle, the cost of the education (it's a bad way to value education but it's acceptable here) and is a better deal for kids who don't want the education in the first place. But most of the top players have visions of NFL millions, so this league needs to give the impression that they are going to properly prepare you for the NFL, as much or better than Oregon or Alabama or... That means multimillion dollar gyms, and multimillion dollar per year performance staffs (doctors, trainers, physiology, strength folk, etc.) and multimillion dollar treatment centres. While I realize you put some slop into your calculations, you can't just say 40 players. The supply of players dries up so you have to go into a season fully prepared for all your injuries and all your "redshirt" guys. You'd probably want to carry 85-ish guys, that's my experience there. If you really want to go all in with a big opening splash, the salaries, the whole NFL bit, the best way to do it might be to have a unitary structure, so there's on company, one league, and the four teams are just divisions within it. So you have one gym, one training staff (albeit a large one), one marketing staff, and the central office would have the ability to move a player to shore up a team riddled with injuries. This means carrying fewer players per team as well. I WANT this league to work, but I've seen enough of these leagues (at smaller scales) come and go to see where the pitfalls are and the red flags. |
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Post by fantom on Jan 11, 2017 12:15:41 GMT -6
thats a good question..I am assuming the league would just have one owner and manage all the teams. you would think they would be able to get an espn contract. I would assume they would draw better than college basketball pre march madness. each team have 40 players x 50000 equal 2 million another 1 million for expenses times 6 teams equall 18 million, say 20 million to be safe..I think it is doable That's player costs yes, but then there are staff costs. If you want ex-NFL names as coaches they don't come cheap. Easy million a year there per team. Front office costs could run another million. Overhead becomes a big cost, they'll have to rent out a decent stadium even if they don't fill it, just to solidify their brand. It seems like they want to base out of LA, nothing will be cheap. Most of the stadia are grass and probably won't be interested in hosting two football games a week all summer. The biggest cost is going to be facilities. To compete with major programs they'll need to at least give the illusion that they offer a better TCP. So the "salary" covers, in principle, the cost of the education (it's a bad way to value education but it's acceptable here) and is a better deal for kids who don't want the education in the first place. But most of the top players have visions of NFL millions, so this league needs to give the impression that they are going to properly prepare you for the NFL, as much or better than Oregon or Alabama or... That means multimillion dollar gyms, and multimillion dollar per year performance staffs (doctors, trainers, physiology, strength folk, etc.) and multimillion dollar treatment centres. While I realize you put some slop into your calculations, you can't just say 40 players. The supply of players dries up so you have to go into a season fully prepared for all your injuries and all your "redshirt" guys. You'd probably want to carry 85-ish guys, that's my experience there. If you really want to go all in with a big opening splash, the salaries, the whole NFL bit, the best way to do it might be to have a unitary structure, so there's on company, one league, and the four teams are just divisions within it. So you have one gym, one training staff (albeit a large one), one marketing staff, and the central office would have the ability to move a player to shore up a team riddled with injuries. This means carrying fewer players per team as well. I WANT this league to work, but I've seen enough of these leagues (at smaller scales) come and go to see where the pitfalls are and the red flags. I'd also like it to work but I'm skeptical. Where's the money going to come from? TV? Do they televise winter baseball games? |
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Post by fantom on Jan 11, 2017 12:24:33 GMT -6
They're going to pay for college on what's left over from $50,000 a year? The season lasts for 2 months in the summer and he gets 50K for it? You could absolutely use whatever is left over for 2 months living costs to pay for college. Average tuition, room/meals, and books at an in-state public school will be $24,600/year. I would tell my son to take this deal in a heartbeat. What if traditional college is not for him? He can take that money and instead attend a trade school that may be more suited to his ability/passion. I do not believe that the only pathway to success is a 4 year degree, as evidenced by the shortage of skilled workers we have here in the US. By playing in a league like this as opposed to going the NCAA route, it gives one more choice in selecting a career field. First of all, as I mentioned earlier, I do not believe that they're paying $50,000 for two months work. Even if they did, you have to deduct taxes and agent fees (They're professionals now). Maybe there's enough left to pay for college, maybe not. Even if there is, that takes care of one year. Think they're keeping a lot of guys around for four years. I think you're doing some wishful thinking. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 12:46:50 GMT -6
The season lasts for 2 months in the summer and he gets 50K for it? You could absolutely use whatever is left over for 2 months living costs to pay for college. Average tuition, room/meals, and books at an in-state public school will be $24,600/year. I would tell my son to take this deal in a heartbeat. What if traditional college is not for him? He can take that money and instead attend a trade school that may be more suited to his ability/passion. I do not believe that the only pathway to success is a 4 year degree, as evidenced by the shortage of skilled workers we have here in the US. By playing in a league like this as opposed to going the NCAA route, it gives one more choice in selecting a career field. First of all, as I mentioned earlier, I do not believe that they're paying $50,000 for two months work. Even if they did, you have to deduct taxes and agent fees (They're professionals now). Maybe there's enough left to pay for college, maybe not. Even if there is, that takes care of one year. Think they're keeping a lot of guys around for four years. I think you're doing some wishful thinking. The article says that the league would pay for Community College courses for players who are interested in school, but I'm with you--I just don't see this working. That's also $50K "average" in California, which is on par with a teacher's salary, but with much higher insurance rates. Presumably a lot of players would make below $50k and if they pay that out the first few years, I'd be surprised. Even if they cut corners and do this with 25 players on each team and have some guys go both ways for 6-8 games, I don't see it as being any more than just another failed barnstorming professional league. The money's just not going to be there without a sizeable TV deal and I can't see ESPN or even a regional syndicated sports network putting up that kind of cash. If this thing makes it 3 years, I'll be shocked. That possibility for the whole league to go bust has to weigh on some of the kids they want to get, too, because if you sign with this league, you lose your NCAA eligibility in football forever even if the whole things under before you play a down. I could see the players who benefit the most from a league like this being your players who can't qualify academically, get booted off for academic or legal issues, or are underclassmen who declare early and don't get drafted, but most of those guys would be better off going the JUCO route or even heading up north and signing with the CFL. Where they might have potential as a farm system would be for them to serve as a developmental squad for small numbers of athletic players the NFL teams see panning out down the road but want to get some more seasoning in the meantime--2nd and 3rd round QBs who are riding the pine, athletic DL who they want to switch to OL, basketball players with no football experience who've been signed to play TE, and things like that. The NFL could pay those players salaries (at a reduced amount) and then pay the league a small amount to develop each one. That's not allowed under the current CBA, though. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Jan 11, 2017 12:55:21 GMT -6
I haven't read through all responses yet but my understanding is that it is only for guys that are not academically eligible to play college ball, but still have the talent to go pro.
Maybe I am mistaken though.
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Post by brophy on Jan 11, 2017 13:30:12 GMT -6
The money's just not going to be there without a sizeable TV deal and I can't see ESPN or even a regional syndicated sports network putting up that kind of cash. If they played it smart, they would set up the league with television in mind (Hard Knocks / All or Nothing / etc) to gain advertising dollars and effective branding, but also tax advantage of the state tax credits that can be very lucrative depending on where they film. Most Networks waste more for less (just look at what the History channel turned into). Its not like you're paying these coaches/players as 'actors'. www.filmproductioncapital.com/taxincentive.htmlIf it is done in the summer they scratch an itch that many have anticipating college/NFL seasons. The World League / NFLE was the real league that did it right, but didn't have a market in Europe to sustain viewership. The USFL and XFL failed because they attempted to grow too fast and/or compete with the NFL. As far as kids getting chewed up and spit out....when has that ever mattered? The logistics will be the most interesting issue. While this is geared towards the Cinderella story of a kid that doesn't go to college, what is the likelihood that much of the roster is NFL retreads and never-was(es)? The positives would be NO PLAYER UNION....without those restrictions, there is no telling what you could accomplish, particularly if you are paying these guys a living wage. What defines a living wage, though? $50k in coastal Cali can't buy you much. Are the organizations providing housing or a training table? What about workout facilities? If it is a developmental league, I would hope they provide those (I doubt it). If its about winning (meaningless) games and selling tickets, then I doubt they make the investment and this becomes a shitshow no one will care about. |
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Post by brophy on Jan 11, 2017 13:52:29 GMT -6
more comprehensive article www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18449983/new-pacific-pro-football-league-debut-summer-2018If it starts this summer, but not played until next year....sounds like they could have it set up for something for the long-haul. - FOUR teams in 2018
- 50 player roster ($10M roster salary for the league)
- 8 games / season
- Initial player employment offers are projected for Winter 2017 and will also include one year paid tuition and books at local community colleges
- Every team will have a counselor to help players develop their interests academically and/or vocationally,
- and assist with coordinating meaningful internships in their fields of interest
- Pac Pro will also be a development ground for coaches, officials, and executives and a 'football lab' for new technologies, smart apparel, and content distributors
If you look at what a Netflix, Amazon, Turner,FOX (whatever) shells out for budgets of television series, it isn't that crazy www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/expensive-netflix-original-tv-shows.html/?a=viewallNo one knows the gross earnings of Mississippi JUCO / All or Nothing sereis, but look at the investment they made there....practically nothing. Just a film crew who just was there. No script (that's done later in the Editing booth)...just a bunch of stock footage that they cranked out into 8 or 12 hour-long episodes they can sell for $2 a pop, then package and sell again for syndication You leave those cameras on when you get the players, go through training camp...then when the season hits you air crap like this....  audiences will eat it up and pay attention to their story interests every week = $$$ |
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 11, 2017 16:06:59 GMT -6
Once more. People who don't understand the CFL don't get to comment.
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Post by wingtol on Jan 11, 2017 20:23:53 GMT -6
Once more. People who don't understand the CFL don't get to comment. One less down One more player Bigger field Motion as many guys as you want Any average American player can just show up and get signed Not too hard I understand it....  |
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 11, 2017 20:24:45 GMT -6
Forgot about the rouge
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Post by wingtol on Jan 11, 2017 20:25:35 GMT -6
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