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Post by John Knight on Jan 8, 2017 9:27:08 GMT -6
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Post by John Knight on Jan 8, 2017 9:44:59 GMT -6
Reinvinted!
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 8, 2017 9:47:13 GMT -6
Oh good. I thought we had the second coming of Al Gore! |
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Post by spreadattack on Jan 8, 2017 10:10:46 GMT -6
I liked Mumme's line in the video: "I liken us to Nabisco. Nabisco didn't invent cookies but they packaged them up real well so everybody liked them." Then he said they didn't invent what they do but they just packaged it up well and it was so simple that a lot of people found it easy to use. I think that sums it up pretty well.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 8, 2017 10:31:10 GMT -6
Some would argue ruined.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 8, 2017 11:01:46 GMT -6
larrymoe, I get what you are saying but saved may be a better word. With the concussion scare in America today, basketball on the gridiron is a way to preserve the sport in some peoples eyes.
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Post by blb on Jan 8, 2017 14:36:34 GMT -6
If Hal Mumme would have coached Defense too, he might still be in D-I.
He didn't invent Football, and to his detriment - he neglected the most important side of the ball.
But, it seems he may have made a lot of $ doing what he's done.
He, and his acolytes.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 8, 2017 15:04:41 GMT -6
larrymoe, I get what you are saying but saved may be a better word. With the concussion scare in America today, basketball on the gridiron is a way to preserve the sport in some peoples eyes. Perhaps the space and increased speed is contributing to the problem. |
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Post by wolverine55 on Jan 8, 2017 21:25:57 GMT -6
As someone who is in Mt. Pleasant Iowa visiting friends almost every weekend, the fact that these guys landed there at all is mindblowing to me. Just proves that you have to get your start somewhere!!
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Post by 33coach on Jan 8, 2017 21:40:00 GMT -6
larrymoe, I get what you are saying but saved may be a better word. With the concussion scare in America today, basketball on the gridiron is a way to preserve the sport in some peoples eyes. Perhaps the space and increased speed is contributing to the problem. I'd love to do a study in HS football. Spread vs not spread. See what the concussion stats are. Cuz I bet you are right to some degree |
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Post by John Knight on Jan 9, 2017 5:41:20 GMT -6
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 9, 2017 7:56:02 GMT -6
That doesn't even make any sense.
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Post by bignose on Jan 9, 2017 8:23:19 GMT -6
larrymoe, I get what you are saying but saved may be a better word. With the concussion scare in America today, basketball on the gridiron is a way to preserve the sport in some peoples eyes. Interesting aside: a couple of weeks ago, I was having dinner with a former head coach, who has won over 300 games, and the Head Official from a local district, and that subject came up. One of the results they have observed was that with the advent of Spread formations, the violence of collisions has actually increased due to the speed at which they are happening. A defensive back, closing on a receiver is going to have much more force at the impact than what would be produced in a tackle from a mass type of formation, where both the tackler and ball carrier are not at full speed. So it may be that gang tackles might just be less damaging than the hits that occur in "wide open" football. Just something to think about. |
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Post by John Knight on Jan 9, 2017 9:17:32 GMT -6
I think there are more kids playing that are basketball types or baseball types now that football is fun and not so so boring, don't you larrymoe? Once the game becomes faster and more like basketball on grass you get more of those fragile kids trying to play a real man's game. I heard a guy say this once while he was trying to sell a new offense.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 9, 2017 10:59:21 GMT -6
I think there are more kids playing that are basketball types or baseball types now that football is fun and not so so boring, don't you larrymoe? Once the game becomes faster and more like basketball on grass you get more of those fragile kids trying to play a real man's game. I heard a guy say this once while he was trying to sell a new offense. No I don't. Numbers are dwindling rapidly for football. If there's more basketball and baseball types, that must mean football types are nearly extinct. My point is, there isn't anyone that is more "prone to concussions". |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 11:02:22 GMT -6
larrymoe, I get what you are saying but saved may be a better word. With the concussion scare in America today, basketball on the gridiron is a way to preserve the sport in some peoples eyes. There was a study that I saw once that said the NFL teams who threw the ball the most also had the most concussions. |
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Post by John Knight on Jan 9, 2017 11:22:58 GMT -6
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Post by tanavea on Jan 10, 2017 9:01:41 GMT -6
So if Hal Mumme invented the Air Raid, what was LaVell Edwards running a decade before him? The article talks a lot about the QBs that were developed but LaVells QBs are just as impressive, maybe even more impressive than any Hal Mumme or Mike Leach QB. Jim McMahon, Steve Young, Ty Detmer.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 10, 2017 9:51:17 GMT -6
Kinda like the guy Nabisco stole the oreo from!
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Post by coachcb on Jan 10, 2017 10:22:53 GMT -6
So if Hal Mumme invented the Air Raid, what was LaVell Edwards running a decade before him? The article talks a lot about the QBs that were developed but LaVells QBs are just as impressive, maybe even more impressive than any Hal Mumme or Mike Leach QB. Jim McMahon, Steve Young, Ty Detmer. Exactly. The base Air Raid concepts and route packages came from the ol' school WCO. Mumme just ran them out of 4-5 WR sets, versus 20-21 personnel sets with splitbacks. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 11:25:55 GMT -6
The forgotten cog in that wheel was Doug Scovil, who brought Sid Gilmans pass principles to Provo.
Scovil gets little credit for his contribution.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 11:34:53 GMT -6
So if Hal Mumme invented the Air Raid, what was LaVell Edwards running a decade before him? The article talks a lot about the QBs that were developed but LaVells QBs are just as impressive, maybe even more impressive than any Hal Mumme or Mike Leach QB. Jim McMahon, Steve Young, Ty Detmer. Exactly. The base Air Raid concepts and route packages came from the ol' school WCO. Mumme just ran them out of 4-5 WR sets, versus 20-21 personnel sets with splitbacks. Mumme started out running them from 20-21 personnel sets and was doing that when he got to Kentucky. Mumme's biggest change was philosophical: he went all in on the passing game and rejected the idea that there even needed to be something like a decent rushing attack to balance things out, whereas the WCO had been about using the pass to set up the run and having the two feed off each other. Everything Mumme did became focused on throwing the football, throwing it well, and throwing it often. Depending on who you listen to, it got to the point at Kentucky where he didn't even care about wins and losses as much as he did about passing stats. His next big change was basing out of the shotgun at a time when few teams used it much. BYU had always felt that the shotgun was a tool that you didn't want to overdo because it weakened the running game and led to sloppy footwork and timing from the QB. Mumme didn't care about running the ball, so that wasn't as big a deal for him. Some other tweaks (a lot of which were actually Mike Leach's ideas) were simplifying the reads, making the offense exclusively right handed, and locking the routes by position, so that if X ran a corner on this play, he'd keep running a corner route in a different set. This allowed them to show different pass plays just by moving the receivers around. They also really emphasized the screen game, now that running the ball was something they only did about 20-25% of the time with maybe 2 or 3 run plays in the book. The 4 wide stuff didn't really become the focal point of the offense until about 1998 or 1999 when they added Shallow and 4 Verts as mainstays of the offense. Those were also Leach innovations. Mike Leach, a BYU alum, deserves at least as much credit for developing the Air Raid as Mumme. It's telling that when Leach left as his right hand man, Mumme's career went into a downward spiral that it never recovered from while Leach went on to win a NC as OC at Oklahoma and has been successful at Texas Tech and now Washington St. After all that stuff, it kind of became its own animal. To say it's the same thing is like saying that the Emory Bellard deserves credit for the Flexbone. |
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Post by spreadattack on Jan 10, 2017 14:08:19 GMT -6
If you read the book this article is based on, Perfect Pass, it grounds the whole thing in what LaVell was doing and shows how Mumme -- at first from afar -- tried to figure out and ape what Edwards was doing and eventually got closer to the staff and then took concepts verbatim. It also appropriately credits Doug Scovil, who as said above was really the guy who brought the BYU offense to BYU from the NFL (though obviously Edwards had the vision).
Interestingly Mumme kind of went full circle on the personnel thing. He tried to run the run and shoot for a year or so as a high school coach and the result was somewhat disastrous; that's when he went all in on the BYU 20/21 personnel approach. It was really Leach who was determined to transform the offense into a 10 personnel offense first at Oklahoma and then at Texas Tech.
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Post by spreadattack on Jan 10, 2017 14:09:33 GMT -6
Also just for clarification Leach left the year before Oklahoma won the national championship, though they won with the offense he installed.
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Post by joelee on Jan 10, 2017 14:24:10 GMT -6
The main thing I didn't like about the book was that the author or Mumme i'm not sure which, tried to take credit for some qb's who aren't air raid qb's. Aslo the hurry up no huddle deal, the book says he started at Wesleyan but I lived in Kentucky when he was at UK and I don't remember HUNH actually happening.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 9:39:25 GMT -6
Also just for clarification Leach left the year before Oklahoma won the national championship, though they won with the offense he installed. My mistake. I remember when Bob Stoops got the Oklahoma job, it was after he'd served as DC at Florida under Spurrier and faced Mumme's Kentucky team. At the time he told the media that he planned to bring Spurrier's "Florida Offense" with him to Oklahoma, but instead he made a point of hiring Leach to install the UK/Air Raid offense when much of the rest of the football world looked at it as a silly gimmick. It worked well for them. Either way, it never ceases to amaze me how influential Mumme has been on the game, even though his career record kind of sucks and he only had one big time job for a short time, a significant portion of which he was the laughingstock of the SEC. I wonder if Mumme would be the legend he is today if, ironically enough, it wasn't for Tony Franklin packaging his offense and selling it as TFS. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 14:47:39 GMT -6
If you read the book this article is based on, Perfect Pass, it grounds the whole thing in what LaVell was doing and shows how Mumme -- at first from afar -- tried to figure out and ape what Edwards was doing and eventually got closer to the staff and then took concepts verbatim. It also appropriately credits Doug Scovil, who as said above was really the guy who brought the BYU offense to BYU from the NFL (though obviously Edwards had the vision). Interestingly Mumme kind of went full circle on the personnel thing. He tried to run the run and shoot for a year or so as a high school coach and the result was somewhat disastrous; that's when he went all in on the BYU 20/21 personnel approach. It was really Leach who was determined to transform the offense into a 10 personnel offense first at Oklahoma and then at Texas Tech. I just started reading this book last night and I'm about 40% of the way through. It's a great read and it really does credit Edwards and the BYU guys for everything. The backstory of Mumme and the offense reads like a "Who's Who" of the history of passing, with Mumme visiting Bill Walsh's camps, going to Provo annually and getting so close to the Edwards staff they'd let him hole up in the film room and study cut ups, and having long conversations with Mouse Davis. It was very interesting to me to see the evolution of Mumme from being a young OC of a ground and pound Pro I team who was fascinated by throwing the ball but had no clue how the passing game worked, so he studied BYU games on TV and tried to figure out what the heck was going on until one day his mediocre team actually upset BYU by running the same stuff at them that he'd copped from them on his own. The Run and Shoot influence on the Air Raid and modern passing offenses gets its due. There's a whole chapter on Tiger Ellison's book and how it influenced Mumme. Even Dutch Meyer, Red Faught, Scovil, Jack Elway, Jack Neumeier(sp?), and Dennis Erickson are mentioned and credited. Mumme's experience as a Run and Shoot coach wasn't "somewhat disastrous," though, according to the book. In his first year as a HS Head Coach, Mumme tried to run the Run and Shoot with some BYU plays mixed in (Mesh, Y-Cross, and Y-Stick) and went 5-5, which were the most wins at that school in forever and, IIRC, the most successful year he had as a HS coach. He went to the BYU 2 back stuff because he didn't feel like the 4 wide set offered adequate protection for the QB, though, and he thought the Run and Shoot was too complicated. One thing that is relevant, though... for all the emphasis the book puts on how Mumme revolutionized the HS game, it's worth noting that he wasn't super successful as a HS coach running the Air Raid. At one point it mentioned that in his first 13 years as a coach, he only had 3 winning seasons. It wasn't until he got to college and could recruit his players (which were, admittedly, mostly guys other schools didn't want--like his former HS QB from his run and shoot season) that he really got to put the Air Raid into full force and start throwing 50+ times a game. Thanks for recommending this book, Chris. |
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Jan 14, 2017 20:22:35 GMT -6
larrymoe, I get what you are saying but saved may be a better word. With the concussion scare in America today, basketball on the gridiron is a way to preserve the sport in some peoples eyes. You know, there is a pretty good argument that "spread" is what has caused the rise in concussions. Because of wide outs being left out to dry, blind sides on qbs. Not to mention The defensive players applying the hits |
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Post by natenator on Jan 14, 2017 21:33:12 GMT -6
larrymoe, I get what you are saying but saved may be a better word. With the concussion scare in America today, basketball on the gridiron is a way to preserve the sport in some peoples eyes. You know, there is a pretty good argument that "spread" is what has caused the rise in concussions. Because of wide outs being left out to dry, blind sides on qbs. Not to mention The defensive players applying the hits What led to all the dead football players with CTE? Was that the spread offense as well? |
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 15, 2017 0:48:19 GMT -6
You know, there is a pretty good argument that "spread" is what has caused the rise in concussions. Because of wide outs being left out to dry, blind sides on qbs. Not to mention The defensive players applying the hits What led to all the dead football players with CTE? Was that the spread offense as well? Perhaps all the PEDs they used, but for some reason that anglee is being totally left out for all concussions all the time. Heck, even the kid fresh out high school that killed himself had used roids. |
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