|
Post by jg78 on Dec 21, 2016 11:01:47 GMT -6
Wow..coach, never thought I would see you of all people saying "a coach didn't get it done" and that games are meaningless if a team is not making the playoffs.... "Meaningless" is a subjective term, of course. With that being said, if I was a HFC and was sitting at 2-5 Week 7 and I had 2 stud wrestlers on the team come up to me and say, "hey coach...I'm sorry but wrestling season starts in 3 weeks and I don't want to get hurt and I want to get ready for wrestling", who am I to argue? Seriously...what should I tell those guys? As HFC, my season is over. I get a week or so off before the weight room starts up but I am home every Friday night and I don't have anything seriously competitive for another 9 months. Those two kids, on the other hand, are going to be on the mat (without any teammates to help them, BTW) in less than a month. In that case, who is truly being "selfish"? I know I would rather go 5-5 than 2-7 and win every game I possibly can if for no other reason than the sake of job security. Five years ago I was the HC of a team that was 2-7 heading into our last game against a team with a comparable record. Even though we were out of playoff contention, I am not sure I would have survived to the next year if we had lost that game. But we won and (with a lot of guys coming back) went 10-3 the next year. Every game matters in coaching, including college. Let a college coach who's starting to feel a little pressure get his ass torn up in a bowl game in the coming days and I can tell you this: it won't help him and could be another nail in his coffin.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 21, 2016 11:03:49 GMT -6
Have you coached at the same school for your entire career? If not, did you quit on your players by taking a new job? I am not a teacher. I coach club (travel) ball in Canada and in the past two years have been able to make my schedule work to coach high school. I have coached with the same club here the past 6 years. 3 years before that I was in another city coaching but moved back where I am now I be closer to family with health care needs. I've had plenty of opportunities to quit this club for greener pastures as the organization itself has been pretty dysfunctional but I am not quitting on kids for greener pastures. I coach because I'd be dead or in jail if it wasn't for coaches volunteering their time when I was growing up. I also don't make a dime from HS or club coaching. I'm not entirely sure what your point is with your question? Who said anything about quitting? I said I coach players to play for their brothers, not their coaches. You aren't arguing that McCaffrey and Fournette are quitting on their teammates by not playing in the bowl games?
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 21, 2016 11:05:45 GMT -6
"Meaningless" is a subjective term, of course. With that being said, if I was a HFC and was sitting at 2-5 Week 7 and I had 2 stud wrestlers on the team come up to me and say, "hey coach...I'm sorry but wrestling season starts in 3 weeks and I don't want to get hurt and I want to get ready for wrestling", who am I to argue? Seriously...what should I tell those guys? As HFC, my season is over. I get a week or so off before the weight room starts up but I am home every Friday night and I don't have anything seriously competitive for another 9 months. Those two kids, on the other hand, are going to be on the mat (without any teammates to help them, BTW) in less than a month. In that case, who is truly being "selfish"? I know I would rather go 5-5 than 2-7 and win every game I possibly can if for no other reason than the sake of job security. Five years ago I was the HC of a team that was 2-7 heading into our last game against a team with a comparable record. Even though we were out of playoff contention, I am not sure I would have survived to the next year if we had lost that game. But we won and (with a lot of guys coming back) went 10-3 the next year. Every game matters in coaching, including college. Let a college coach who's starting to feel a little pressure get his ass torn up in a bowl game in the coming days and I can tell you this: it won't help him and could be another nail in his coffin. From the perception of the COACH, you are right. Every game matters. But that is not true when taking into account the perception of the PLAYER.
|
|
|
Post by natenator on Dec 21, 2016 11:06:08 GMT -6
I am not a teacher. I coach club (travel) ball in Canada and in the past two years have been able to make my schedule work to coach high school. I have coached with the same club here the past 6 years. 3 years before that I was in another city coaching but moved back where I am now I be closer to family with health care needs. I've had plenty of opportunities to quit this club for greener pastures as the organization itself has been pretty dysfunctional but I am not quitting on kids for greener pastures. I coach because I'd be dead or in jail if it wasn't for coaches volunteering their time when I was growing up. I also don't make a dime from HS or club coaching. I'm not entirely sure what your point is with your question? Who said anything about quitting? I said I coach players to play for their brothers, not their coaches. You aren't arguing that McCaffrey and Fournette are quitting on their teammates by not playing in the bowl games? I simply posted the thread to see what coaches thought of their actions and get some discussion going. I haven't made any judgments on whether I personally feel what they did was right or wrong.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 21, 2016 11:14:09 GMT -6
You aren't arguing that McCaffrey and Fournette are quitting on their teammates by not playing in the bowl games? I simply posted the thread to see what coaches thought of their actions and get some discussion going. I haven't made any judgments on whether I personally feel what they did was right or wrong. In that case, my apologies!
|
|
|
Post by tiger46 on Dec 21, 2016 17:09:02 GMT -6
I've seen some dumb phucking arguments. And, this thread has to rank as a top contender for a blue ribbon in the 'Dumbest Phucking Argument Ever' category on this board. ROFLMAO! Why? I could go into a lot of 'what ifs'. But, none of that matters. Who wouldn't want to be doing what they're doing?! Just google their college majors (McCaffery & Fournette). And, then google worse college degrees in terms of return on investment. I think both of their degrees show up. If not, still wouldn't matter. What job could either get,using their degrees, that pays the type of money that the NFL could afford? What other type of job, period...Hollywood actor, tech company mogul? The NCAA is owed absolutely nothing, either. There is absolutely, positively no sane argument to say to someone to make that person want to not make top dollar for his skills in his chosen field of work that he loves! And, yes, it's his life's work if he's made it all the way to an elite D1 athlete. You would be an unmitigated failure as any kind of positive influence in their lives. That's almost the antithesis of what a positive role model should be doing. Has no one else ever heard of the saying, 'HAPPIER THAN A PIG IN SH*T!!'
|
|
|
Post by mrjvi on Dec 21, 2016 17:33:10 GMT -6
Do they owe anything to the college that totally paid for their education? Just a question attack dogs.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Dec 21, 2016 17:48:52 GMT -6
Do they owe anything to the college that totally paid for their education? Just a question attack dogs.
You mean besides what they've already done, including the money they brought in with their performances that helped their teams win enough to go to bowls where schools will get further pay outs whether they play or not?
BTW I believe McCaffrey has already earned his diploma, don't know about Fournette.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 21, 2016 18:19:39 GMT -6
Do they owe anything to the college that totally paid for their education? Just a question attack dogs. If anything, the colleges owe them. Both of those guys have more than earned whatever value their education was worth.
|
|
|
Post by tabs52 on Dec 21, 2016 19:12:46 GMT -6
What about the money made on selling their jerseys and other items with them on it. Yes the young men get a great opportunity with education paid for but in life college is about preparing them for the life's work. I just can't fault a guy who would want to protect himself for his future. Are they letting their teammates down, that is between them and their teammates.
|
|
|
Post by mrjvi on Dec 21, 2016 20:23:13 GMT -6
IF they were on a team in a 16 game playoff, would you still feel the same?
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 21, 2016 20:31:36 GMT -6
IF they were on a team in a 16 game playoff, would you still feel the same? The question is, would McCaffrey and Fournette feel the same? I would imagine that if Stanford and LSU were in the playoffs, those kids would be playing. But, the perception is (from these two kids) that both teams are playing in a glorified exhibition game and the risk/reward just isn't worth it. So yes...I do agree with you that there would be substantially much more to lose for these two kids if LSU and Stanford were in contention for a NC.
|
|
|
Post by mrjvi on Dec 21, 2016 20:33:39 GMT -6
Fair enough. I have to agree.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 21, 2016 21:02:07 GMT -6
The question is, would McCaffrey and Fournette feel the same? And this is why I think this is a very interesting discussion. Some may say I crying the sky is falling, but I think this may very well be the start of trend (see, taking a knee during anthem) where anything that is not "a championship" is now considered meaningless. Team won't make the playoffs..quit and start playing round ball. Team can't compete for a title, don't go out for it. An interesting side note, about 4 1/2 years ago (when the CFP was first announced) I wrote into Beano Cook and Ivan Maisel's College football show asking them if they thought that having an "official" playoff tied with the bowls would lead to a diminished interest in any bowl game not involved in the playoff that year because the had been "officially" labeled meaningless. I wonder if that time has come.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 21, 2016 21:19:23 GMT -6
The question is, would McCaffrey and Fournette feel the same? And this is why I think this is a very interesting discussion. Some may say I crying the sky is falling, but I think this may very well be the start of trend (see, taking a knee during anthem) where anything that is not "a championship" is now considered meaningless. Team won't make the playoffs..quit and start playing round ball. Team can't compete for a title, don't go out for it. An interesting side note, about 4 1/2 years ago (when the CFP was first announced) I wrote into Beano Cook and Ivan Maisel's College football show asking them if they thought that having an "official" playoff tied with the bowls would lead to a diminished interest in any bowl game not involved in the playoff that year because the had been "officially" labeled meaningless. I wonder if that time has come. Well, I think you can make the argument that we are already there. Let's face it...once a team gets 1 loss, they are on the bubble. 2 losses? Forget it. Heck...a team can win their conference championship but if they have 2 losses, they aren't getting in to a 4-team playoff. So yes...I agree. I do think that there is a consensus that the 4-team NC playoff is really all that matters and that all the other bowl games aren't really important. That's probably why there will be a big push to expand the playoffs. If you are a Top 10 team that had a terrific season but got left out of the NC playoff, your season is going to be largely forgettable. I'm sure that teams like Michigan and Penn State, for example, would be big proponents of a 6-team or 8-team playoff.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 21, 2016 21:26:42 GMT -6
And this is why I think this is a very interesting discussion. Some may say I crying the sky is falling, but I think this may very well be the start of trend (see, taking a knee during anthem) where anything that is not "a championship" is now considered meaningless. Team won't make the playoffs..quit and start playing round ball. Team can't compete for a title, don't go out for it. An interesting side note, about 4 1/2 years ago (when the CFP was first announced) I wrote into Beano Cook and Ivan Maisel's College football show asking them if they thought that having an "official" playoff tied with the bowls would lead to a diminished interest in any bowl game not involved in the playoff that year because the had been "officially" labeled meaningless. I wonder if that time has come. Well, I think you can make the argument that we are already there. Let's face it...once a team gets 1 loss, they are on the bubble. 2 losses? Forget it. Heck...a team can win their conference championship but if they have 2 losses, they aren't getting in to a 4-team playoff. So yes...I agree. I do think that there is a consensus that the 4-team NC playoff is really all that matters and that all the other bowl games aren't really important. That's probably why there will be a big push to expand the playoffs. If you are a Top 10 team that had a terrific season but got left out of the NC playoff, your season is going to be largely forgettable. I'm sure that teams like Michigan and Penn State, for example, would be big proponents of a 6-team or 8-team playoff. Actually, I remember hearing both Harbaugh and Franklin saying they would not want the CFP changed. I think the change has to be with the MINDSET. Competition is NEVER meaningless...it is a very deep rooted part of the animal condition.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 21, 2016 21:54:22 GMT -6
Well, I think you can make the argument that we are already there. Let's face it...once a team gets 1 loss, they are on the bubble. 2 losses? Forget it. Heck...a team can win their conference championship but if they have 2 losses, they aren't getting in to a 4-team playoff. So yes...I agree. I do think that there is a consensus that the 4-team NC playoff is really all that matters and that all the other bowl games aren't really important. That's probably why there will be a big push to expand the playoffs. If you are a Top 10 team that had a terrific season but got left out of the NC playoff, your season is going to be largely forgettable. I'm sure that teams like Michigan and Penn State, for example, would be big proponents of a 6-team or 8-team playoff. Actually, I remember hearing both Harbaugh and Franklin saying they would not want the CFP changed. I think the change has to be with the MINDSET. Competition is NEVER meaningless...it is a very deep rooted part of the animal condition. That's a good point. What have the coaching staffs at LSU and Stanford said about these two guys? Are they generally supportive of them not playing? Have the schools issued any public comments at all?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 22:32:24 GMT -6
I grew up dirt poor, no dad, the whole deal so I completely understand why a kid would want to do everything he can to assure that he goes into the draft as healthy as possible. I quit playing football in college after my second year because I didn't want to risk an injury that could delay me graduating and earning a living - and I had NO prospect of even sniffing the pros. Without football, most of these kids don't have a future and I imagine they're carrying the weight of their entire family.
Somebody said, "They're making 20 year old kid decisions." I disagree, I think they're making 50 year old man decisions. A 20 year old kid thinks he's invincible and he'll play a game because it's FUN, a chance for a stadium full of people to ballwash him. A 50 year old man, looking at the underfunded retirement train coming down the tracks at him is going to say, "Screw that, I gotta take care of ME on this one."
I don't like it but i understand it.
|
|
|
Post by carookie on Dec 21, 2016 23:11:04 GMT -6
I will add this, outside of staving off any potential injury, I don't think this will have any noticeable impact on either's draft stock. Of course, the media will completely attach any unexpected combine results to them doing this.
If Fournette runs a 4.3 you better believe everyone will claim it was because he left the team to prep for the draft (even though it may or may not be). Conversely, if he looks rough in the more skill related aspects (catching passes) then the talking heads may claim that he should have stayed and practiced.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 22, 2016 7:11:47 GMT -6
Actually, I remember hearing both Harbaugh and Franklin saying they would not want the CFP changed. I think the change has to be with the MINDSET. Competition is NEVER meaningless...it is a very deep rooted part of the animal condition. That's a good point. What have the coaching staffs at LSU and Stanford said about these two guys? Are they generally supportive of them not playing? Have the schools issued any public comments at all? I don't know about Stanford, but with LSU, the decision was actually one that Coach O and Leonard made together. So I would say that is supportive. I think Nick Saban's comments on this sum up things pretty well.
|
|
|
Post by natenator on Dec 22, 2016 7:25:30 GMT -6
Do they owe anything to the college that totally paid for their education? Just a question attack dogs. If anything, the colleges owe them. Both of those guys have more than earned whatever value their education was worth. One could argue that the value of their "education" is about to be defined by their earning potential in the NFL, not what some college gave them in scholarships to play FOOTBALL (calling them a student is laughable). By that context I say they owe their college money for without the college opportunity they wouldn't be worth 1/16th of earning potential.
|
|
|
Post by mrjvi on Dec 22, 2016 7:31:16 GMT -6
Saban has great points. How can the importance be "saved"?
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 22, 2016 7:34:13 GMT -6
If anything, the colleges owe them. Both of those guys have more than earned whatever value their education was worth. One could argue that the value of their "education" is about to be defined by their earning potential in the NFL, not what some college gave them in scholarships to play FOOTBALL (calling them a student is laughable). By that context I say they owe their college money for without the college opportunity they wouldn't be worth 1/16th of earning potential. Chicken or egg. The point is, both guys were (I'm assuming) viewed as valuable commodities coming out of high school. I would imagine that there was intense competition for their services. LSU and Stanford offered scholarships to them in the hope that both players would perform at a high level. Both players did just that. So, Stanford and LSU got their money's worth out of both players. Neither player owes the schools anything. That debt has been paid in spades.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 22, 2016 7:37:33 GMT -6
That's a good point. What have the coaching staffs at LSU and Stanford said about these two guys? Are they generally supportive of them not playing? Have the schools issued any public comments at all? I don't know about Stanford, but with LSU, the decision was actually one that Coach O and Leonard made together. So I would say that is supportive. I think Nick Saban's comments on this sum up things pretty well. Wow. Thanks for posting that. I think Saban hit it out of the park.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 22, 2016 7:39:14 GMT -6
Saban has great points. How can the importance be "saved"? Pandora's Box...probably can't be.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 22, 2016 7:42:21 GMT -6
Saban has great points. How can the importance be "saved"? Not sure it can be... You can't put the toothpaste back in. Importance is an subjective concept, money is involved, and we are a copy cat society.
|
|
|
Post by spos21ram on Dec 22, 2016 7:53:18 GMT -6
The question is, would McCaffrey and Fournette feel the same? And this is why I think this is a very interesting discussion. Some may say I crying the sky is falling, but I think this may very well be the start of trend (see, taking a knee during anthem) where anything that is not "a championship" is now considered meaningless. Team won't make the playoffs..quit and start playing round ball. Team can't compete for a title, don't go out for it. An interesting side note, about 4 1/2 years ago (when the CFP was first announced) I wrote into Beano Cook and Ivan Maisel's College football show asking them if they thought that having an "official" playoff tied with the bowls would lead to a diminished interest in any bowl game not involved in the playoff that year because the had been "officially" labeled meaningless. I wonder if that time has come. It's all relative depending on the player. To those that are guaranteed to be an early to mid first round pick, unless they get hurt, a non playoff game is meaningless when you look big picture from their eyes. To those that are low end 1st rounders and down, they look at this bowl game as an opportunity to improve their stock. To those who don't have a shot at the NFL are putting all they have into this game even if it's the Beef O Brady bowl because it's the last time they'll ever play. There's no doubt in my mind that if the both these guys were in the CFB playoff, they'd be playing. About the playoff system making other bowls meaningless....besides the big 6 bowls, those other bowls have always been pretty meaningless.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Dec 22, 2016 8:10:14 GMT -6
To Saban's point:
I have a book entitled BOWL GAMES: College Football's Greatest Tradition by Robert M. Ours published in 2004.
Bowl games - with the accompanying parades, floats, pageantry - played around the holiday season and the fact that there was no D-IA playoff were what helped make Major College Football different or special.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 22, 2016 8:32:07 GMT -6
And this is why I think this is a very interesting discussion. Some may say I crying the sky is falling, but I think this may very well be the start of trend (see, taking a knee during anthem) where anything that is not "a championship" is now considered meaningless. Team won't make the playoffs..quit and start playing round ball. Team can't compete for a title, don't go out for it. An interesting side note, about 4 1/2 years ago (when the CFP was first announced) I wrote into Beano Cook and Ivan Maisel's College football show asking them if they thought that having an "official" playoff tied with the bowls would lead to a diminished interest in any bowl game not involved in the playoff that year because the had been "officially" labeled meaningless. I wonder if that time has come. It's all relative depending on the player. To those that are guaranteed to be an early to mid first round pick, unless they get hurt, a non playoff game is meaningless when you look big picture from their eyes. To those that are low end 1st rounders and down, they look at this bowl game as an opportunity to improve their stock. To those who don't have a shot at the NFL are putting all they have into this game even if it's the Beef O Brady bowl because it's the last time they'll ever play. There's no doubt in my mind that if the both these guys were in the CFB playoff, they'd be playing. About the playoff system making other bowls meaningless....besides the big 6 bowls, those other bowls have always been pretty meaningless. First..I find it interesting for people to say the "big 6 bowls"... because those of us who are a bit longer in tooth will remember when really there were 4 major bowls. Also interesting of note, the two bowls being skipped have a longer tradition than the Peach or Fiesta bowls. So essentially, a bowl can seemingly be made to be "important". I don't know if I would say they have always been meaningless. Prior to the outback bowl in 1986 (which started the addition of about 30 bowl games in the last 30 years) there were only about 12 bowl games. They were great week long rewards in warm (relative) locations for teams. The fact that 2/3 of those new bowls have been since the turn of the century definitely dilutes the reward concept. Also when discussing bowl games, I do think people need to recognize that they are much more than the 3 hour contest for the players as blb mentions above. That was one of my biggest issues with the CFP, or any expansion. I know the impact of the Sugar Bowl as a New Years bowl event as opposed to a part of a playoff could grow to be very different, especially if the CPF expands.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 8:42:08 GMT -6
The question is, would McCaffrey and Fournette feel the same? And this is why I think this is a very interesting discussion. Some may say I crying the sky is falling, but I think this may very well be the start of trend (see, taking a knee during anthem) where anything that is not "a championship" is now considered meaningless. Team won't make the playoffs..quit and start playing round ball. Team can't compete for a title, don't go out for it. An interesting side note, about 4 1/2 years ago (when the CFP was first announced) I wrote into Beano Cook and Ivan Maisel's College football show asking them if they thought that having an "official" playoff tied with the bowls would lead to a diminished interest in any bowl game not involved in the playoff that year because the had been "officially" labeled meaningless. I wonder if that time has come. I would agree with Saban and say that it has. That's clearly the message here, and even the message that people were communicating on this thread. You already see stuff like this happening at the HS level. "Team eliminated from playoffs? Welp, I gotta go to open gym, coach..." I understand McCaffrey and Fournette's decisions here. With a lot of money at stake, they don't want to get hurt. It makes sense. But where do you draw the line between "meaningful" and "meaningless" and how can you keep a team together when all the different individuals on it may disagree about where that line is drawn? What's to stop the guy who's a starter, but not looking at an NFL future OR a good job after college from deciding "Well, this game's meaningless and I might get hurt. I'm going to "opt out" so I can spend the holidays with my family and play video games." My prediction is that you see this attitude spread and grow to the point where HS and college regular season games become classified as "meaningless" and more HS teams who are struggling with low numbers wind up forfeiting the last few games of their season because of mass quitting. IMO, a man finishes what he starts. If you make a commitment, you stick around and follow through as long as you're able. That's one of the most fundamental lessons of team sports. You learn to follow through on a big commitment and sacrifice your own self-interest for the good of the team. I understand all the money at stake with these two men, but this sort of decision rips that ideal to shreds and it will filter down to other players and lower levels.
|
|