baraboo99
Sophomore Member
[F4:ryan.andersen33]
Posts: 205
|
Post by baraboo99 on Mar 2, 2006 5:55:11 GMT -6
One question has been bugging me for 2 years now on your offense. But first a little background. 2 years ago when I left to go coach in Austria, I was replaced by an old american coach who was a defensive genius and a DWer for 30 years. I don't think we had the players to run this offense to be honest, but it was effective none the less (check www.mustangs.se/stats_season.asp for our stats). In our last game of the year we played our crosstown rival for the division title. They came out passing and scored quickly. Our run game also looked good but two good drives were killed by fumbles. While they could score quickly, we were just grinding the ball. When we needed a big pass, they knew it was coming. The game ended up 26-8 because we just couldnt get a big play. My question is this... with running such a ball control offense, what could they have done to open it up a little bit and get some quick scores? Can you run the DW with a not so good defense? |
|
|
|
Post by superpower on Mar 2, 2006 6:55:08 GMT -6
We often get quick scores on our counters, and I also like the big plays that we have gotten from our passing game, including our screen package. The problem that you discussed was calling pass plays when the opponent (and everyone in the stadium) knew what was coming. You must throw it when they don't expect it. I don't call a pass play on third and long because I would be setting my kids up to fail. In third and long we are likely to run a trap, and if we don't get the first but do gain positive yards, we may go for it on 4th down. As with any offense, much of the success is calling the right play at the right time.
|
|
baraboo99
Sophomore Member
[F4:ryan.andersen33]
Posts: 205
|
Post by baraboo99 on Mar 2, 2006 7:03:47 GMT -6
I was at that game, and he did try running a lot in short yardage situations, but in the 2nd half they were really playing great on the run game so it really limited their options.... www.mustangs.se/film_game1.asp click here for a highlights of one of our earlier games...with our guys what would you have done? (warning this is a flash file and it takes a long time to load) |
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Mar 2, 2006 8:51:26 GMT -6
not so good defense is the REASON why some guys run a ball control offense. you can score quickly with the dw, in fact we averaged more than a point a minute with it for the last couple of years. play action passing at the right time can score big time in a hurry and of course calling plays well will make counters and traps and the wedge xx hurt a defense in a hurry too. not all dws are created equal though. if you think passing is the way to go when your outmanned your in for a surprise because you turn the ball over 3 and out and ran no time off the clock...then what? but the dw keeps you in teh game because you limit the other guys posessions. simple really.
|
|
baraboo99
Sophomore Member
[F4:ryan.andersen33]
Posts: 205
|
Post by baraboo99 on Mar 2, 2006 8:58:43 GMT -6
DW guys I mean no disrespect by this I was just curious! I figured it was a problem with the coach and not the system. To be honest with the guys we had he shouldnt have ran the DW anyways...we didnt have the right personell. I think the success we had was very misleading. I think if he would have went with double splits instead of double tights they would have had much much more success.
|
|
|
|
Post by bulldogoption on Mar 2, 2006 9:15:27 GMT -6
What is the right personel for the DW? I came from a school where the coach switched from option to DW because he knew his lineman would be inferior to the ones he had in previous years. Then I moved to a different school that had tried to run DW and couldn't and blamed it on the fact that they didn't have the right kind of lineman. In all honesty, what do you DW guys think are the right kind of lineman for your offense?
|
|
|
|
Post by superpower on Mar 2, 2006 9:21:36 GMT -6
I don't choose an offense based on the available personnel. Instead, I believe we can teach the kids how to be effective in our DW system. As with any offense, the better talent you have, the better the offense will be. When you have big, tough, fast, strong athletes, you look like a genius no matter what offense you run. With that type of athlete in the DW, you will score quickly. No offense, including the DW, is a magic bullet.
|
|
baraboo99
Sophomore Member
[F4:ryan.andersen33]
Posts: 205
|
Post by baraboo99 on Mar 2, 2006 9:26:10 GMT -6
Well we didnt have any true TE's, and one of our wings had to go both ways. Instead of making our starting LB's go both ways the whole year, I think he should have used a system that fit the guys we had.
I just think all offenses have weaknesses and the wrong personell can make those weaknesses come to the surface. As much as I wanted to run the wing t with my team I knew it didnt fit. I picked what was best for them. Thats just my two cents...
|
|
|
|
Post by gmccown on Mar 2, 2006 9:49:07 GMT -6
I think a lot of it depends on the coaches. Like any system one guys trash is another treasure. There have been a lot of guys run the spread with success and a lot run it and have loosing seasons. Sometimes you just don't have the talent to win, you just get outhorsed. I think in these situations the DW is a great equalizer, but it depends on the coaches knowledge of his system and his ability to ingrain that knowledge in his players. Also if he has been running the DW for 30+ years then he may not be running it the "modern" way which started in the 80's with Don Markham. If the coach is running the old Parsegian or Wyatt (Bowden at Tennessee not to be confuse with Hugh) style DW with wider splits and the FB deep he isn't running what we run, and frankly he won't be as successfull.
|
|
|
|
Post by gmccown on Mar 2, 2006 9:52:22 GMT -6
Having said that I spend a lot of time in the pre season just trying to get the right guys in the right places. For me I put my best two linemen at guard, and I go with a blocking FB over a runner any day. And I'll go with a blocking QB over a pocket passer any day. I put my strongest runner on the left and my fastest on the right. and I look to double team everywhere I can.
|
|
|
|
Post by knighter on Mar 2, 2006 10:23:11 GMT -6
i do not think there is "the wrong personnel" for DW. any lineman can pull if you teach them how to do it. it all comes down to taking a good first step.
i could take 8 and 9 year olds with 0 football experience and teach them to play OL in the DW. Can't tell me you can't pull the backside OT and have him get there, I have had some turds at OT that have pulled well and helped us playside. Slow turds at that.
|
|
|
|
Post by gmccown on Mar 2, 2006 19:45:16 GMT -6
I agree. The whole point of the DW is that you look for a certain type of player at each spot but you can always gain an advantage due to the double teams and pulling backside. A lot of coaches split out, or use a modern stance, or don't stress stance and first step at all and it kills them.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Mar 5, 2006 7:10:01 GMT -6
i have never seen a well coached double wing attack that didnt work well. i have seen lots of bastardized dw systems fail though. you have to commit and you have to be able to coach the details. its a detail oriented SYSTEM, not a formation with a mish mash of plays.
|
|
lagooty
Sophomore Member
Posts: 151
|
Post by lagooty on Mar 5, 2006 13:05:51 GMT -6
I've been interested in the DW for several years now. When I get a chance to run it, I'd like to expand on it a little bit. Problem is, I have no experience with it, and have seen little of it on film.
My immediate question is this: with the line splits you use, is it possible to run a midline, double option with the fb and qb?
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Mar 5, 2006 14:25:32 GMT -6
lol...seeeee, you dont need that stuff.
|
|
lagooty
Sophomore Member
Posts: 151
|
Post by lagooty on Mar 5, 2006 18:13:17 GMT -6
So how do you attack the middle of a defense? Trap? Dive? Say 'Forget the middle of the defense?'
|
|
|
|
Post by runtheball86 on Mar 5, 2006 18:55:14 GMT -6
Attack the middle of the defense with wedge and trap.
|
|
|
|
Post by outlawzheadcoach on Mar 5, 2006 22:11:25 GMT -6
The thing that I have seen as far as "linemen" are concerned in this system, is not that you need superior atheletes but that you need technically sound players, technically sound linemen can beat "beasts" up front, I saw that in the film of our first game. We have a lineman that atheletically should have beaten our tackle but he techniqued him to death and was able to drive him off of the ball
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Mar 6, 2006 3:50:35 GMT -6
inside plays we use...
wedge, wedge with xx action
short trap, regular trap, counter trap, wing counter trap, qb spin with gut blocking.
as far as personnel. you take what you have and you coach em up. your best kids are typically at wing, fullback and guard and te. but talk to 100 different dw coaches and you might be confused, some guys like murphy like their best linemen at tackle...most say guard. some say worst play te...i like to have stud tes..who doesnt lol...anyhow, it works if you work it.
|
|
lagooty
Sophomore Member
Posts: 151
|
Post by lagooty on Mar 6, 2006 10:00:30 GMT -6
What problems do you guys have, if any, with people trying to disrupt pulls?
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Mar 6, 2006 10:58:43 GMT -6
i have never had a problem with it personally, but some guys say teams sub and tackle their linemen. hard to do that if your oline is deep off ball and light on their hands as mine are. we also block back with the center on even fronts and cut wiht the te, if a team is getting to my pullers its because my te isnt cutting. never have that problem.
|
|
