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Post by tog on Jan 12, 2006 6:35:23 GMT -6
This came up in chat last night For spread stuff, doubles gun, I really tend to look at reducing the front by removing the 8's/inverts with bubbles and other short passing game outside as they are the biggest threat to the running game out of doubles gun (if you can block the front) I know there are many formation tweaks people can do to remove them as well, namely a form of trips. How do you go about looking at it? Do you throw to run. Or run to throw? Or is it a yin and yang thing, take what they give you? How does this influence how you think about it? Background? Huey said last night, "numbers lie" Sometimes they do if they bring heat from outside. Huey I would like to hear a little more about your general thinking in this area. How does anyone else look at this? Not a real solid question in terms of zeroing in on what I am talking about, as it gets into many areas of offensive thinking, but I think it is a good exercise for people to look at these things and see how their philosophy is shaped by 1. backgrounds 2. personnell 3. strategy in general 4. just plain old style aggressive, conservative, logical, Zen, whatever  |
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Post by spreadattack on Jan 12, 2006 7:16:36 GMT -6
I think you can do it by formation to some extent. I like running "trey formations," or trips with a tight end. Can get Sam to walk out more, particularly vs. Cover 2 (spread trips they often shift out of 2).
Bubbles are good but I also like the quick bootlegs with the slot/TE going to the flat (or you can run smash or whip and work the flat as well). Like you said Tog, the guys over the slots secretly want to come up and make run tackles. Bubbles are good but they can still sometimes play the slot just inside or head up and blow up the bubble, but being suckered in on a run fake rarely gives them a chance to recover. I also run lots of play action and threaten vertical to keep Cover 2/4 safeties off me, since, particularly vs 4, those safeties like to come up and make you think it is a 5 OL vs 5 defenders, but really it is 5 OL vs. 7 defenders.
That translates to boot vs 1 and 3, straight PA vs 2 and 4. If you look at the old school I-formation teams, they figured out many years ago the importance of forcing the outside backers outside and keeping the safeties deep.
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Post by los on Jan 12, 2006 7:33:49 GMT -6
Good question Tog, I came from a background of- quote from one of my old coaches("Run it up their crack boy's"), you know the old adage of knock down 10 of theirs and run over #11 or is it run opposite #11?  Over the years I've evolved my personal football philosophy to a more balanced approach and since I've begun to hear more ideas from you all, have almost come to the conclusion that if you don't have to block someone to have a successful run/pass play, don't waste the effort! You know, either remove them by formation or put them in conflict and run where they ain't! Use your limited resources(good blockers) wisely! Just one old guys opinion though! |
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Post by coachnorm on Jan 12, 2006 8:14:41 GMT -6
To me wether you throw to run, or run to throw depends on the defense. I'm a big believer in taking what the defense gives you. force them to make adjustments to stop you. In making those adjustments they will usually open up something else that you can jump on.
I know that's what's at the heart of your question Tog.
The bubble is good to draw the outside run support (whoever that may be) out to open up running lanes, so are many other short routes. Too many coaches write off the value of the 5 yard hitch route. We use it a lot to force defenses into tight man coverage and open up the run, but if a team starts in press man we will do something else to them.
Defenses operate on a philosophy of "take their best play/plays away from them", well that's how I approach offense. Don't allow the defense to play the way they like to force them to change, to make adjustments.
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Post by spreadattack on Jan 12, 2006 8:15:02 GMT -6
Los, good post. Just to clarify my post, in the run game you can eliminate defenders by a) blocking them or b) removing them from the point of attack.
To remove them you can first remove them by formation: this is what spreading does, and what bubbles are for. But like everything else, after the snap they can then attack the run action. This is why you run draws, fake draws, boots, play action, etc. Like Huey said, "numbers lie" and they lie because defenders don't play honest (OLBs and Ss playing run). So you have to do both, spread them by formation and then force them to be honest with faking, just as the zone/read and the QB wrap force the BSDE to "play honest" or pay.
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 10:39:53 GMT -6
Tog, we started to discuss the setback position as a key for the defense to attack the mesh point last night, but never finished as there were many topics discussed. One of the things you mentioned was jet as a counterpunch to them attacking the mesh. To me, I think the biggest problems caused to the spread are #1, bad snaps, #2 false reads by the E on the read and #3 pressure off the edge into the mesh combined with tight coverage preventing bubbles. What I was saying about sliding the F is that if the defensive front and blitz package is based on his alignment, sliding him would be a good way to hit where they ain't.
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Post by tog on Jan 12, 2006 11:01:08 GMT -6
i agree jahanawa
we use our back in the gun game for same side runs and across runs so we use the "tendency" to our advantage
norm
you can also "block" people with options
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Post by coachnorm on Jan 12, 2006 11:16:23 GMT -6
Good point Tog!
I will admit we don't option much out of the spread, we tend to option out of a split pro set.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 12, 2006 11:34:19 GMT -6
Option from the gun is very good. Spread them out and it makes reads easier.
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coachg
Sophomore Member
Posts: 119
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Post by coachg on Jan 12, 2006 11:48:10 GMT -6
When optioning out of a gun set what is the QB's coaching point on pitching off the DE? Should he Aim for the inside number of the DE or Outside Number? Any ideas on that? Ive had problems in the past with the DE knocking the pitch down. Also do you like blocking the DE and pitching one man wider or off ILB? if so what are your coaching points
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 12:10:14 GMT -6
coachg, usually the give read is off the end, the pitch is off the invert. But when your running option from under center and the DE is knocking pitches down, I would look at your QB's option track and make sure it is at the upfield shoulder of the end, the qb needs to gain a little ground rather than running sideways or losing ground into the backfield, when he does this he makes it easier on the DE. As far as blocking the DE and optioning wider, yes loading it is a good wrinkle. Depends on where your load blocker is coming from though, if he is going to be able to seal the DE to the inside.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 12, 2006 12:20:23 GMT -6
Really I do not like to load b/c I feel it can allow the D to stretch the play. It does not give the QB clean man to pitch off. I know alot of coaches do it very successfully, so maybe you guys can tell me how you keep the play from stretching.
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 12:43:56 GMT -6
from the bunch is one way, double the end, or a wing. Its tough if the blocker is coming at the DE from the inside except in college you can cut him. One wrinkle of loading though is if the end is going to pitch and the ws/ss is coming up for qb, you can lead the loader on him instead, say spead out of the I, fb leads up the seam on fs.
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 12, 2006 12:52:43 GMT -6
Tog, this is what I'm talking about when teams try to attack your spread with pressure, particuliarly on the setback side trying to disrupt the mesh. When we have pressure and press we do the common thing, we like to throw fade over the top or slant to attack the open middle- this can be baited though by showing blitz and playing man under two if the fade is the automatic audible. When you face pressure teams that have COVER athletes that are as good or better than your 4, and your QB is going to get hit if he stands and throws fade/slant, what is plan B to counter pressure? My first thought is seal the rush inside and sprint out/QB sweep or speed option.  |
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Post by coachveer on Jan 12, 2006 19:03:17 GMT -6
Well if they are in man or Cover 2 man under you can crack inside with both the Slot and SE and pitch off of the corner.
Or better yet pitch off of the DE crack with the Slot and SE and make the Cover Corner tackle your best player out in the open. How many times will he make that tackle 1 out of 3.
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Post by tog on Jan 12, 2006 20:17:20 GMT -6
jahanawa Thanks for putting up all the diagrams and things on here
those really help
you have any good double screens to take advantage of this stuff?
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Over the years I've evolved my personal football philosophy to a more balanced approach and since I've begun to hear more ideas from you all, have almost come to the conclusion that if you don't have to block someone to have a successful run/pass play, don't waste the effort! You know, either remove them by formation or put them in conflict and run where they ain't! Use your limited resources(good blockers) wisely! Just one old guys opinion though!
