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Post by hsrose on Sept 11, 2016 16:23:34 GMT -6
Played Friday night, won 27-6. Our JV lost 41-12. Our game wasn't that close, we left 2 TD's on the field and missed a FG in the first qtr. Their team is a DTDW (I say that because of the associated toughness factor), in our section playoffs last year, but only had 19 guys dressed. Held them to 63 yards total offense, scored in last 3 minutes of the game, couple of their guys went out with injuries. Good players, just not enough of them.
20-0 at halftime. Walking off the field the ref comes over and says that the other team is down to playing freshmen (their stud Mike is a frosh, 5-11, 195, very good player), that in his opinion there is a now a physical mismatch and I need to have my players back off some. Go like we taught them, but when the whistle starts to blow they all stop. He does not want to have any extra curricular activity when the play is over, this stems from our 'get everyone to the ball' philosophy on defense. He says that he will start throwing flags if we continue to be as aggressive as we have been. He's done a couple of our games, we have a good relationship, so we talk a bit and I say that I'll do what I can.
Tell the coaches and they think I am nuts but they understand. We don't know how to dial back the intensity like this, haven't been in this situation before.
Start the 2nd half and the ref comes over before our KO and says that the other coach wants to go running clock for the rest of the game. Game is over so I say yeah, lets get this over, and that's the way it went. Our 3rd offensive play my RG almost gets flagged for a legal hit 1 yard behind the ballcarrier. Ref tells me to get him out or he will. All our 2's and everyone else plays the rest of the game. Took me 5 minutes to explain to the kid that if he went back in he would likely get tossed and we would lose him for the next game as well. Finally got through to him.
I thought they would be good this year, but they came to our 5-team scrimmage and could not field a varsity team, only JV, so the signs were there.
Never been the bully team before. We're the ones that usually have to bring the body bags. I understand the situation, been there a lot at this school, but never been in this situation where we are the big boys on the block.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 11, 2016 16:47:03 GMT -6
20-0 at half and the other coach wanted a running clock? That is ridiculous.
In my state, a running clock does not start until the 2nd half and a 40-point spread has to be achieved. If the other coach wanted a running clock before that, I would get written approval from the officials that the game is over and my team won by forfeit before I would agree to anything else.
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Post by carookie on Sept 11, 2016 16:51:03 GMT -6
I've had this happen before, though not with the game as close in score as yours was. Usually we point out to the refs that he needs to make sure to talk to the opponent about nothing tricky and don't make us run our JV RBs into meat grinders (ie don't go drop 9 in the box on us).
As I wrote, I never had this happen in a situation where I anticipated playing my #1s (like your situation was). I don't know how I'd handle it with a 20-0 score like yours was; I honestly think I'd have to tell the refs that we still got a game to finish off, and come talk to me when it was out of reach.
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Post by coachphillip on Sept 11, 2016 17:52:46 GMT -6
20-0? Not even close to being over. That guy is insane.
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Post by 60zgo on Sept 11, 2016 19:58:08 GMT -6
The key here is the guy only had 19... He wants the game over as fast as possible. He knows he can't win, so he wants to get out without injury.
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Post by bignose on Sept 11, 2016 20:19:56 GMT -6
I would agree to this if up by 4 TDs, depending on the setting, as long as the opponent's coach doesn't do something ignorant like throw 30 yard bombs down the field, after I agreed to call off the dogs.
They do that , all bets are off, and the starters are going back in.
We had a guy do just that to us, when we were up by up by 24 points. He had several kids knocked out of the game, and sent the ref across the field asking us to back off. And then he started throwing the ball!
That's Chutzpah!
You know what happened next!
I think we hung 40+ on him, before we subbed our #2's and 3's back in during the third quarter.
Here, a 35 point lead in the second half becomes a running clock automatically.
We have been in situations where the refs start the running clock in the first half of some mismatched games.
Now the team we are discussing is a Double Tight Double Wing team so that is an unlikely scenario. Deep passing ain't a part of their mindset.
With a running clock they'd be lucky to have 3 possessions in a half.
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Post by carookie on Sept 12, 2016 8:46:32 GMT -6
The key here is the guy only had 19... He wants the game over as fast as possible. He knows he can't win, so he wants to get out without injury. I get your point, and believe me I am the last guy to run up a score or try to make myself seem better by destroying an opponent. But the margin was only 20 pts at half, this is far from a mismatch (if it were 20-0 midway through the 1st qtr then it is a mismatch). So the final outcome of the game is still in the balance, and as such the team with the lead has to be given the opportunity to play their best until the outcome is clear. Consider that the team in the lead is a missed tackle and a returned fumble away from being up less than 1 TD. And despite the opponent's low numbers they have kept it that close for the entire first half. Suiting up 19 sucks, I've been there many times, and nobody wants to get injured (especially with numbers that low). But this score is clearly too close to be told by a game official (outside of his jurisdiction) to ease up. There is a time and a score for such actions and this does not reach that threshold. |
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Post by blb on Sept 12, 2016 8:55:05 GMT -6
The referee overstepped his authority.
If the losing coach wants to go to a running clock (and there is no provision in league or state for a 'Mercy Rule'), he should have discussed it with the other coach at halftime - not the official.
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Post by leighty on Sept 12, 2016 10:56:14 GMT -6
The referee overstepped his authority. If the losing coach wants to go to a running clock (and there is no provision in league or state for a 'Mercy Rule'), he should have discussed it with the other coach at halftime - not the official. So you think coaches should make decisions about how the game is officiated without involving the officials? |
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Post by blb on Sept 12, 2016 11:12:43 GMT -6
The referee overstepped his authority. If the losing coach wants to go to a running clock (and there is no provision in league or state for a 'Mercy Rule'), he should have discussed it with the other coach at halftime - not the official. So you think coaches should make decisions about how the game is officiated without involving the officials?
The question was not (or should not have been) about how the game was going to be officiated.
And it's not the referee's place to tell coach how to coach his team anymore than to tell players how to play.
Whether a game is played with a Mercy Rule or Overtime requirement is not up to officials.
Those are contract decisions between schools or within leagues or state associations.
So the losing coach should not have prevailed upon the referee to change how the game was going to be played, he should have talked to his counterpart from the other school to reach an agreement.
If he felt that his kids were going to be endangered if they continued to play according to the rules of the game, he should've asked the opposing coach to end the contest at that point.
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Post by leighty on Sept 12, 2016 11:16:46 GMT -6
So you think coaches should make decisions about how the game is officiated without involving the officials?
The question was not (or should not have been) about how the game was going to be officiated.
And it's not the referee's place to tell coach how to coach his team anymore than to tell players how to play.
Whether a game is played with a Mercy Rule or Overtime requirement is not up to officials.
Those are contract decisions between schools or within leagues or state associations.
So the losing coach should not have prevailed upon the referee to change how the game was going to be played, he should have talked to his counterpart from the other school to reach an agreement.
If he felt that his kids were going to be endangered if they continued to play according to the rules of the game, he should've asked the opposing coach to end the contest at that point.
So yes, you believe discussions about a running clock should not involve the official time keepers. |
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Post by blb on Sept 12, 2016 11:22:09 GMT -6
The question was not (or should not have been) about how the game was going to be officiated.
And it's not the referee's place to tell coach how to coach his team anymore than to tell players how to play.
Whether a game is played with a Mercy Rule or Overtime requirement is not up to officials.
Those are contract decisions between schools or within leagues or state associations.
So the losing coach should not have prevailed upon the referee to change how the game was going to be played, he should have talked to his counterpart from the other school to reach an agreement.
If he felt that his kids were going to be endangered if they continued to play according to the rules of the game, he should've asked the opposing coach to end the contest at that point.
So yes, you believe discussions about a running clock should not involve the official time keepers.
For what purpose other than to inform them? To give them right to approve or refuse?
They do not have that prerogative when games are scheduled or even when they come on the field Pre-Game. Why would that change once the game has begun?
The contest is between teams representing two schools. Officials are there to administer the game as agreed upon by the contestants and according to the rules.
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Post by bigmoot on Sept 12, 2016 11:30:01 GMT -6
Its not a refs job to tell a coach how he should get his kids to play. He is there to enforce the rules. Is there a official rule that allows the refs to intervene if the losing team is getting killed, besides a running clock/mercy rule?
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Post by 33coach on Sept 12, 2016 11:46:02 GMT -6
if a ref told me that id have one sentence for him:
"you do your job, ill do mine."
and if he threw my kid out (for no reason) -- id be on the phone with anyone who would listen. make sure he doesnt ref again in the area.
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Post by fantom on Sept 12, 2016 12:01:22 GMT -6
The referee overstepped his authority. If the losing coach wants to go to a running clock (and there is no provision in league or state for a 'Mercy Rule'), he should have discussed it with the other coach at halftime - not the official. So you think coaches should make decisions about how the game is officiated without involving the officials? How about this quote >>> that in his opinion there is a now a physical mismatch and I need to have my players back off some. <<<? How is that the official's business? |
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Post by KYCoach2331 on Sept 12, 2016 12:06:12 GMT -6
Had a similar situation with our 7th grade team. We were up about 16-0 and the Ref came up to us and said the other team was going to quit at halftime if we didn't put in our backups (who were already in). We won 24-0 and they quit at the end of the third.
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Post by leighty on Sept 12, 2016 12:12:55 GMT -6
How about this quote >>> that in his opinion there is a now a physical mismatch and I need to have my players back off some. <<<? How is that the official's business? It's not. And if that's your only beef, so be it. But acting like an official brokering a running clock is some egregious misuse of authority is silly. It's happened in three of the four games I've been a part of this season. "Hey, coach, their coach wants a running clock. Are you OK with that?" Yes, by all means. I want to get to Waffle House sooner. |
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Post by 3rdandlong on Sept 12, 2016 12:17:30 GMT -6
We were down 43-7 at halftime last week against a vastly superior football team. There is a running clock rule when a team gets up by 30 in the fourth quarter. The ref asked me at halftime if we'd like to go to a running clock in the 3rd and that the winning team said they would like to. I refused because I didn't want to seem like we were waving the white flag. I didn't ask them to take out starters or anything like that. Our kids played tough in the 2nd half and we lost 43-24. Granted, this was against the other teams twos but it gives us more confidence heading into this week when we play an opponent more up to our speed. I talked to their coach after the game and told him how classy he was even though I wouldn't have complained if they continued to whoop up on us.
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Post by fantom on Sept 12, 2016 12:23:58 GMT -6
How about this quote >>> that in his opinion there is a now a physical mismatch and I need to have my players back off some. <<<? How is that the official's business? It's not. And if that's your only beef, so be it. But acting like an official brokering a running clock is some egregious misuse of authority is silly. It's happened in three of the four games I've been a part of this season. "Hey, coach, their coach wants a running clock. Are you OK with that?" Yes, by all means. I want to get to Waffle House sooner. Well, there's this: >>>Our 3rd offensive play my RG almost gets flagged for a legal hit 1 yard behind the ballcarrier. Ref tells me to get him out or he will. <<<< I don't have a problem with the running clock but the official has no business telling a coach how to coach his team. This wasn't a case where a player was in danger of being out of control and getting tossed legitimately. This was an official deciding who should be in the game. |
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Post by carookie on Sept 12, 2016 16:18:53 GMT -6
Come to remember this one. Several years ago I was coaching a JV game, it was a Saturday in September at 11 AM and probably about 85-90 degrees. We suited up 16 players, the opponent brought down 40+, but they were from a beach town so high 80s was a bit much for them. We were up by a couple TDs at the half, it was close still but we were clearly starting to pull away and they were wilting.
So they send the refs to us at half claiming that the heat is excessive and they want to have mandatory water breaks every four minutes in the second half (side note these types of rules have since been instituted in our state). The other JV coach and I really could care less, but our varsity HC was there, flipped out, and told them 'no'.
Just thought I'd add this as it is similar to the topic at hand.
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Post by hunhdisciple on Sept 13, 2016 7:50:51 GMT -6
Our running clock is a 36 point lead, at any point in the game.
If the opposing coach asked for one at 20, that's fine with me.
But, I would try and work with an official if he asked me to back them down. But, if he was threatening flags and possible ejection, for hard play, then I would have an issue with that.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 13, 2016 8:16:24 GMT -6
1. 20-0? Really? That's a three score game and there's no reason for the opposing coach to lay down. That's just cowardly, for lack of a more PC term.
2. The official has no right to make any demands about the players' conduct or intensity as long as they're playing within the rules.
We were in a similar situation once in the play-offs of a youth league. It was a very tight game, both teams were smacking the hell out of one another and it was quite exciting. The official approaches us and asks us (and the opposing team) to have our players "chill out". I asked him what he meant by "chill out" and he stated that "the kids are going at it too hard"... I asked if there was anything illegal going on and he stated that it was "approaching unnecessary roughness" and that we "needed to control our players better". Mind you, there wasn't a single unnecessary roughness or late-hit called once at this point in time. I told the ref point blank that we absolutely would not tell our kids not to play hard and that he could expect me to contest any late-hit or unnecessary roughness call he may make with the head og the league following the game. The second half was filled with those calls (from both ends) so I uploaded the film from the game, emailed it to the leagure director and that guy never officated for us again.
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Post by rsmith627 on Sept 13, 2016 9:10:49 GMT -6
The key here is the guy only had 19... He wants the game over as fast as possible. He knows he can't win, so he wants to get out without injury. I get your point, and believe me I am the last guy to run up a score or try to make myself seem better by destroying an opponent. But the margin was only 20 pts at half, this is far from a mismatch (if it were 20-0 midway through the 1st qtr then it is a mismatch). So the final outcome of the game is still in the balance, and as such the team with the lead has to be given the opportunity to play their best until the outcome is clear. Consider that the team in the lead is a missed tackle and a returned fumble away from being up less than 1 TD. And despite the opponent's low numbers they have kept it that close for the entire first half. Suiting up 19 sucks, I've been there many times, and nobody wants to get injured (especially with numbers that low). But this score is clearly too close to be told by a game official (outside of his jurisdiction) to ease up. There is a time and a score for such actions and this does not reach that threshold. Even 19-0 in the first isn't necessarily a mismatch. We went into halftime last week down 20-0. We were down 20-0 after the first. We weren't outmatched. We just kept hurting ourselves. Defense couldn't get off the field, and the O had a couple of 3 and outs. We put ourselves into that situation. I would never want a team to call off the dogs that early though. It's a disservice to our kids. It tells the winners not to play their best, and the losers that we don't believe in them. We lost 20-15 and I was proud of my kids for staying up and fighting back into a game that was winnable. I'm glad the other team didn't lay off. |
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Post by dubber on Sept 13, 2016 9:26:06 GMT -6
If the ref feels there is a safety issue, call the game.
Otherwise, chill out.
I just spent 24 months getting this junior to fire off the ball, and I'm not going to undo that.
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Post by carookie on Sept 13, 2016 10:22:05 GMT -6
I get your point, and believe me I am the last guy to run up a score or try to make myself seem better by destroying an opponent. But the margin was only 20 pts at half, this is far from a mismatch (if it were 20-0 midway through the 1st qtr then it is a mismatch). So the final outcome of the game is still in the balance, and as such the team with the lead has to be given the opportunity to play their best until the outcome is clear. Consider that the team in the lead is a missed tackle and a returned fumble away from being up less than 1 TD. And despite the opponent's low numbers they have kept it that close for the entire first half. Suiting up 19 sucks, I've been there many times, and nobody wants to get injured (especially with numbers that low). But this score is clearly too close to be told by a game official (outside of his jurisdiction) to ease up. There is a time and a score for such actions and this does not reach that threshold. Even 19-0 in the first isn't necessarily a mismatch. We went into halftime last week down 20-0. We were down 20-0 after the first. We weren't outmatched. We just kept hurting ourselves. Defense couldn't get off the field, and the O had a couple of 3 and outs. We put ourselves into that situation. I would never want a team to call off the dogs that early though. It's a disservice to our kids. It tells the winners not to play their best, and the losers that we don't believe in them. We lost 20-15 and I was proud of my kids for staying up and fighting back into a game that was winnable. I'm glad the other team didn't lay off. Yeah, I was just citing the biggest blowout I was ever part of. Midway through the 1st up 21-0, end of the 1st up 49-0. |
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Post by coachcb on Sept 13, 2016 12:00:31 GMT -6
I wouldn't have agreed to the running clock simply because I want the younger guys to get as many turns as they can if the game continues to go sideways. There won't be a running clock until the rule dictates it. We were on the bad side of some serious blow-outs when I was the HC of an 8-man team but I was honestly angry about the running clock on several occasions as we wanted to get our younger players reps during the game. Losing by 40+ points sucks but it affords you the opportunity to basically get an hours worth of straight JV practice in.
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Post by jrk5150 on Sept 13, 2016 12:07:49 GMT -6
Yeah, when you're suiting up 19, pretty sure playing time/reps isn't a problem...
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Post by 33coach on Sept 13, 2016 15:36:20 GMT -6
running the clock is fine - id agree to that...
a ref telling me he will throw my kid out for playing - unacceptable.
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