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Post by 7384729737 on May 1, 2007 10:43:30 GMT -6
Ok, you guys helped me with a paper earlier and now its time for my finals. My topic is:
Use of punishment with athletes.
How do you discipline your athletes when they do something wrong? Such as being late for practice or getting in trouble while in school. Do you run them or do you talk to them about it. Also do you use "performance punishment", like when players aren't performing their best how do you handle that, do you punish them in anyway?
My professor want me to focus a lot on whether coaches should use physical punishment like running players for being late.
I feel it comes down to what kind of conscious the player has. If he know he has done something wrong then there is no need to run someone all day for it. But if they couldn't care a less then that's different.
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Post by coachbw on May 1, 2007 11:09:55 GMT -6
We won't run an individual player as a punishment. If the team is behaving in a way we don't like, we will run the whole team at once. If we need to punish a player we will just about always do it by taking away playing time.
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Post by CVBears on May 1, 2007 12:03:43 GMT -6
If a kid has an F on a weekly progress report or for each missing assignment he has on a weekly progress report, he has a perimeter run while carrying a tackling dummy for each infraction. I will never give a kid physical punishment for not being able to do something. If our boys aren't communicating well (or not at all), we will have the group hammer out some up downs (5-15 depending on how many warnings we've previously given). To me, the kid has to know it is a crime first (make sure they know the rules, expectations, give them warnings/reminders), the punishment has to fit the crime and if the group is messing up, the group gets punished, if the individual messes up, the individual gets punished.
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Post by CoachJohnsonMN on May 1, 2007 12:14:22 GMT -6
We never use our normal conditioning as discipline for unwanted behavior. Our normal conditioning has a specific purpose (being well-conditioned & allowing us to WIN IN THE FOURTH QUARTER). Therefore, we do not want players to associate necessary conditioning with punishment. Our punishment for minor infractions (being late, swearing, forgetting equipment, etc.) is a "reminder". A "reminder" (run of a specific length--maybe 150 yards--with up-downs every 5 yards) is to remind players to make the correct choice next time. If we are not satisified with the effort, we will repeat the period until we get it right. We never leave the practice field unless every period is to our standards. The players realize it is better to get it right the first time and we leave the field knowing that every period allowed us to improve. As far as disrespecting a coach, skipping practice, or other major offenses, we take away playing time.
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Post by lsrood on May 1, 2007 12:33:51 GMT -6
If they get in trouble in school they know they are going to run, that's our rule. If they are late with legitimate reasons (tutoring/make up work) they don't run. If they are just late or late because of detention then lace up the running shoes. If they leave equipment out after practice or don't clean up after themselves in the locker room, they run. If they dog it in practice, they run. If they dog it in games, they sit. We have a drill called "Ho's & Go's" that they absolutely hate and usually we only have to put them through it once to get their attention. Our players know what is expected of them and that there will be consequences for their actions if they do not meet the rules we have established.
As a couple of others have mentioned we won't punish them for not being able to comprehend something, but lack of effort or inability to follow our set rules will result in a "reminder" as coachjohnsonmn so eloquently puts it to toe the line.
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barnone
Sophomore Member
Posts: 132
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Post by barnone on May 1, 2007 13:29:35 GMT -6
We run our kids if they break rules, but not to extreemes. Howevery, with my o-line guys next year for every loaf or broken assignment our starting line will push the sled for 10 yards.
so if we have 8 bust and 2 loafs they will owe me a hundred yards of sled work.
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Post by coachmoore42 on May 1, 2007 16:58:14 GMT -6
We really crack down on poor grades and/or behavior in the spring. Every D adds one "Bulldog Mile" and every F, N, or U adds two each. (A "Bulldog Mile" is one lap around the FB field and running up and down each set of stairs, no walking. If you can no longer jog you can stand still, if they walk more than a step or two on a stop or restart the entire lap doesn't count.) They will run the total everyday during spring practice. That is usually when grades and conduct are the worst. The running usually gets rid of our fall problems one way or the other.
We make them run three "Bulldog Miles" after practice for a tardy, and five for an excused absence. An unexcused absence will net you eight, two unexcused absences will earn you your walking papers.
Any fumble, penalty, blown assignment, etc will result in "Grass Drills/Up-downs" for the guilty unit (all eleven players will do them, regardless of who is guilty). We do fifteen for a fumble, ten for a major blown assignment, one for each yard of a penalty.
Loafing during practice will get you sent off to run "Bulldog Miles" "until I get tired of seeing you run them," which is usually around 1.5 or 2. If this doesn't fix the problem we'll send them to the locker room and they'll be watching that week's game from the sideline in a shirt and tie.
If they can't get their job done, we replace them. If no one else is adequate they'll get another chance eventually. If someone else steps up and does a better job than they were the first player probably won't see much more playing time at that spot.
Bottom line, if they don't correct the problem in a reasonable amount of time they'll be paying to get into the stadium on gameday.
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Post by fbdoc on May 1, 2007 19:20:59 GMT -6
Coachjohnson makes a good point - Don't use your "regular" conditioning for punishment. Everything should have a reason - stick to the reason. Our kids know that if they are late for practice, 10 seconds or 10 minutes, we give 5 up downs to the team. 4 kids are late, then we've got 20 updowns (we always do them in sets of 5 with 15 seconds of rest).
We also take off of the total for hustle, great play, and team-work so the kids know if they do the right thing (encourage a team mate, don't give up on a play, hustle) then good things will happen - we take off updowns! They also become better players. We also finish most of our practices on the Lev Sled where they have a chance to take off updowns. We don't do laps or other mindless physical punishments. We condition within our football practice drills and we condition specifically. If we need to punish a kid we just don't let him play!
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Post by fbairattack on May 1, 2007 19:45:15 GMT -6
Agree with coaches that have said regular condo is not a punishment time...everything has a purpose...
The purpose of this was to get the message across that certain behaviors are unacceptable on this team...being late..not prepared..leaving out gear/equipment..screwing around in the lockerroom..language..unexcused absences..yadda yadda yadda
We use PT for those that need it (discipline issues at practice, school, etc)...Got it from a coach that was a former Navy Seal... A few years ago and he asked if he could run the PT for the first week of fall practice...THE KIDS HATED IT... up downs, duck walks, push up (down position) holds, leg raises, he even brought a railroad tie (sp) and made them lug it around the field in groups of four...each station was a 10 yard sprint from the other...if they didn't sprint, finish a drill or fail to complete they started all over... We had ONE discipline problem that entire year after they got introduced to PT and that was a kid that ended up kicked out of school shortly after that. Funniest thing about it was he was the NICEST guy you ever would meet but he could work them out like a dog.
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Post by 3ydsandacloud on May 1, 2007 20:42:38 GMT -6
The whole team runs "cycles"(jog-sprints), right after stretches, if anyone is late, misbehaves in school, missing assignments causing failing grades etc. The teachers really appreciate the backup from the program and if done consistently the peer pressure will straighten them out. It is not our normal conditioning and is not done if there is not an infraction. Our normal conditioning is mainly done during drills and we try to keep it competitive. 2 minute drill, special teams, relay races etc.
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Post by jjkuenzel on May 1, 2007 23:11:38 GMT -6
We will have kids run for being late, skipping practice, or classroom behavior. I don't know if I necessarily think it is the best thing overall, but none the less it is what we do. We will also take away playing time if the punishment fits the crime and the kid.
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Post by touchdowng on May 1, 2007 23:13:33 GMT -6
We tell the guys up front what will happen if they are: 1. Late to anything related to FB = 100 yard sprint + 100 yard backpedal + 100 yard bear crawl
2. Not Dressed Properly for practice = same
These are the ONLY two things that don't take talent.
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gcarter
Probationary Member
Posts: 8
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Post by gcarter on May 2, 2007 5:55:52 GMT -6
100 yards of Bear Crawls for being tardy and 200 yards of Bear Crawls for missing a practice. Excused or unexcused! Unexcused absence will also include reduced or loss of playing time. Example: Offensive Starter misses offensive day, he will not start on offense and he will be taken off of any Special Team practiced that day. It has worked pretty well, because coaches are real consistant with it and the kids know what the punishment is before it happens.
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bigcroz
Junior Member
Go STAGS!!
Posts: 356
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Post by bigcroz on May 2, 2007 8:41:18 GMT -6
We let the kids know the rules and then enforce them evenly. Directly from the Team Rule sheet that every kid and their parent signs: 4. Practice is necessary for team and individual success. Players are expected to attend every practice and be on time, unless they are absent from school due to illness/injury or contact a coach prior to that practice. Failing to do so results in an unexcused practice. Unexcused miss #1 = sit a half of game and rewards. Unexcused miss #2 = sit a whole game and rewards. Unexcused miss #3 = dismissal from program. 5. Be on time for practice. 1st time late = run rewards. 2nd time late = sit a quarter of game. 3rd time late = sit a half of game. 4th time late = sit 1 whole game. 5th time late = dismissal from program.
Rewards (because you earn everything you get) are 100 yard sprint with down up every 5 yd then sprint all the way back. I never use conditioning as a punishment I will take away playing time which is much more serious to the kids than running a few extra laps.
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Post by gldnglv165 on May 2, 2007 9:18:48 GMT -6
We have to be very careful in what we do for conditioning/disciplilne. One of our rival coaches got suspended for a year for having his kids do push-ups for leaving trash on the field. Push-ups were ruled to be corporal punishment by the school district, and a strict message was sent out to all coaches in our league to not use corporal punishment as discipline.
We were referred to a coaching handbook that is given out to the coaches in our league which insists that exercise is not an acceptable form of punishment, but that "time-outs" were a better form of punishment. I suppose "time-out" goes along with taking away playing time, but when trash is left on the field, the team is not practicing hard, multiple kids are screwing around, do you give the whole team a time out and not play them in the game? I can accept taking away playing time for a kid who shows up late to practice or a game, or is getting bad grades, I just have to be careful when I've only got 20 kids for a game as it is. I'll run into a "Hoosiers" situation where I'm only playing a game with 10 kids on the field instead of 11. The thing I think that I will have to do to get around the "corporal punishment" issue is to have extra conditioning built into the schedule and use it as necessary. I think I can still use exercise for "conditioning" but not "discipline" or I might get sued by some parents for trying to discipline their kids.
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Post by brophy on May 2, 2007 18:45:06 GMT -6
i have been around and seen it done a hundred different ways, but the most effective i've experienced is TEAM punishment.
we may do 220 sprints or laps around the field or ladders.... but at the end of practice the TEAM has to square all debts.
We do one lap/ unit for each minute each player is late. three kids come to practice 5 minutes late? 15 laps for the team.
Its one thing to let a coach down....its one thing to run all night by yourself.....BUT to have to make others suffer for your incompetence is something entirely different.
The personal accountability it fosters is immeasureable. It forces team leaders to steep up and make decisions governing the best interests of the TEAM.
BTW - we condition at the START of practice and it is only shuttle sprints the width of the field.
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Post by coachjim on May 4, 2007 0:38:21 GMT -6
I may be the only opposing view point to "team punishment" in this entire thread, but here are the reasons I think its a load of crap. You never punish everyone for the deeds of one or the few. It doesn't promote teamwork, it promotes animosity toward each other.
An example: Last year the HC made the entire team run to the fence everytime someone did anything wrong. The kids that were instigating most of the stuff, just happened to be our best runners. They loved to run to the fence because it showed how good they were, got them out of what they percieved as "boring" stuff, and the kids that hated to run, hated them.
It's just my opinion, and an opposing one, but I don't punish as a team. I give credit to the team for team play, but I punish the individual and no one else. If a kid doesn't want to be on the team, he can leave, but he's not going to dicate my practice and what the rest of the team does.
IMHO.
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Post by 3ydsandacloud on May 4, 2007 9:58:22 GMT -6
When one kid false starts, they all have to back up 5 yards. The same concept is applied to our program on and off the field.
Obviously you can make adjustments if there are complete idiots on your team. The players you are describing would have been watching our next game, if it is as bad as you are describing.
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Post by fbdoc on May 4, 2007 12:14:50 GMT -6
I think this might be one of those topics where a lot depends on the coach who is actually administering the punishment. Yes, everyone backs up 5 yards in the game when someone jumps offsides but applying that to practice indiscretions can be a metaphorical stretch for some kids.
I think if you have your rules publicized - the kids KNOW them in advance, and they are FAIR and applicable to football, teamwork, and winning, and finally that you are CONSISTENT in your enforcement and consequences, then you can probably make just about anything work.
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Post by phantom on May 4, 2007 12:22:31 GMT -6
We'll punish the team if a guy commits a penalty during practice. If somebody goes offsides the team does 5 pushups, etc. For an individual infraction-late for practice, etc.- w run the individual.
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Post by 3ydsandacloud on May 4, 2007 17:20:52 GMT -6
Maybe its different with MS kids. If we only run the kid who is late, then they start hiding each others crap to get each other in trouble. If they all run, then they try to help each other find stuff, and in MS finding stuff can be a huge issue. I also discuss this with parents at the parent meeting, no complaints yet.
Classroom issues, they don't think its nearly as funny when the class clown is acting up if they are going to run for it later and do not encourage it. Their is a lot of peer pressure not to get in trouble and they don't want to be the one who makes all of their buddies run.
We don't go overboard (we have never had them run more than 6 "cycles") it is right after stretches (not throughout practice we are done with it in less than 2-3 minutes), we are very consistent and they know what is coming. After the first week or so we haven't had much problem. We have had some very good kids though. As I said before, for some infractions players lose playing time. Little horse crap the whole team pays and it usually stops.
They got to make my assistant and I run 7 cycles after their perfect season, one for each win. They got a kick out of it and I got a little workout.
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Post by coachjim on May 5, 2007 4:00:35 GMT -6
Re: 3YDS: "Obviously you can make adjustments if there are complete idiots on your team. The players you are describing would have been watching our next game, if it is as bad as you are describing. "
I wish, coach. We only had fifteen kids so I guess they could afford to be idiots and probably knew it.
RE: FBD: "I think if you have your rules publicized - the kids KNOW them in advance,"
Hrm, that was something that wasn't done by the HC. Sometimes you have to hear the obvious stated out loud, before it becomes obvious. I will definately do that as HC this year. Good advice.
Ironically, because the kids played both sides of the line, all that running to the fence probably helped their endurance. But in regards to comaradarie (sp?) and playing as a team, it didn't, at least not with this group. They took "team punishment" personally. My kid even cried one day, that he had to keep running to the fence, over and over, because of one or two uncoordinated or problematic kids. We had some other kids, Bus, Tank, and Train (you get my drift about their size) that certainly were full of hate at the end of a practice. I thought they were going to drop down dead after a few laps. I am an inexperienced coach, so I respect each and every one of your views who have been coaching a lot longer. It seems the consensus agrees with team punishment so there must be something to it, and I should be reading, rather than writing.
It just seems in my experience, with our own individual situation and specifics, it didn't work like it was suppose to.
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Post by 3ydsandacloud on May 5, 2007 9:11:02 GMT -6
Coachjim,
I understand the numbers issue. I coached a HS team with 14 kids and 9 were freshmen and the varsity QB was 105lbs. (we didn't have a very good record ;D) I was just saying if what I am doing is not working I will find something else. After all doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.
Sitting kids is a lot easier to do if you are confident it won't affect the outcome of the game. Sometimes I have decided to bite the bullet and sit a kid, just to send a message.
In the situation when I had 14, I sat a kid on homecoming (manily for something that happened during school) and thought it would kill us. He was our center and best lineman. The team actually played its best game. We might have won if the kid was playing, but I will never regret the decision because of the attitude adjustment in that kid and the whole team.
If it is multiple players, I might sit one a game, one a quarter, not let them start, take them off defense or offense whichever is their favorite, if that is all I can afford.
If I absolutely can't sit a player, and team punishment is not working I will absolutely find something else.
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Post by hoptions on May 5, 2007 22:12:48 GMT -6
We have tried the whole push ups and down ups thing, just does not seem to have the effect it use to. Also since we hate to have to do them in the middle of practice and we forget to do them at the end of practice, we are getting away form them.
Since “Corporal Punishment” is illegal we are going to a rewards system w/ sitting as punishment.
Kids really respond well to loss of playing time so we came up with what we are calling “THE BENCH”.
If you are screwing around in practice you get the bench, literally, you are done with practice and you go sit on a bench in plain view of everyone until practice is over.
If you leave the bench you leave the team.
If you get benched you lose a quarter of playing time, which means you are replaced on everything you are on.
If you get benched twice in a season you are going to be asked why you came out for the team. Three times you will be dismissed from the team.
Also we will be running 14 poles (1 pole = running 120 yards around the goal post, 14 because that is how many games you play in when you get to the finals). If nobody screws around and everyone works hard the whole practice we will take the poles away. Poles are in addition to our sprint work that we use for conditioning.
So in a nut shell if you get benched you watch your teammates run a lot. After a few of these it should not take long to get things straightened out on the team.
Get benched by: talking back, screwing around, and swearing (one warning first)
Unexcused Late/missed practice 1 time: miss a quarter Unexcused Late/missed practice 2 times: miss a half Unexcused Late/missed practice 3 times: dismissal
We will be having a mandatory study hall / weight room session rotating through the week, 2 and 2. If you have good grades B or higher, then you help tutor or get extra film time. This will be considered practice time, and starts 10 min after school gets out. You could be late or miss study hall and field time in the same day, if this happens you lose a half and have no more room for error.
This is what we came up with to punish with our corporal punishment. If the running is part of everyday practice it is not considered punishment and since our punishment (the bench) is not a physical punishment we are good again. The bench came about because of players that were causing distractions in practice, and if you send them out of practice and something happens its you butt on the line. Let me know what you think, we have not done this yet but it sounds really good to me.
Hopitons
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Post by coachjim on May 6, 2007 6:58:09 GMT -6
Well put, Hoptions. You're either a creative thinker, have them on your team, or you have been coaching youth a long time. Some of my "positive reinforcement" will include game balls, a reward of sunglasses or a team shirt with the team logo, each week, to the kid who tries his best, and of course the "pizza party" if the TE can do the "pizza block" (Thanks Ted Seay) on the S or OLB and it results in a touchdown. I really appreciate that you reminded me, to leave it up to the kids as to whether or not they want to be there and to direct this question to them when they need reminding. Think i'm gonna have us a little "bench" too, maybe even a "bleachers." Hrmmm....
Out of curiosity, because you have your {censored} together and seem to have a firm grip on team discipline with positive results, what was your record last year or how did it go? Big improvement all around?
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Post by bulldogoption on May 6, 2007 9:39:05 GMT -6
Good Topic.....It is always interesting to hear all of the different, none right or wrong, viewpoints. If you are writing a paper, let me give you a great ivory tower answer. Positive reinforcement works better than negative reinforcement, at least that's what I think i remember learning. Having some type of reward for being on time may accomplish the same thing. The problem with positive reinforcement is it takes more time and effort on the coaches part. It's easier to set a deadline and make kids run than it is to come up with a reward system. Similarly, its easy to put 20 kids in a group running them thru a drill where 2 are active and 18 are idle and make the kids run when they screw around. It is hard to proactively think about how to run a drill so that all 20 kids are active eliminating idle time. Idle hands are the work of the devil, or something like that One of the greatest ways to eliminate practice problems is to proactively plan your practices. There is a practice plan floating around from Stillman Valley HS in Illinois. Their HC is so organized that they don't even have water breaks in their practices. Their kids are so focused on the tasks that they will grab one when they know their reps are done for the moment and be back before their turn comes again. One of the pitfalls of a board like this is many statements come across as absolutes. We all know that with humans, and teenagers in particular, nothing is absolute. Your punishment plan which worked well one year may be ineffective the next year. Heck the effectiveness may change from day to day depending on their mood. Each situation is different for an infinite number of reasons. Team punishment may work great with one group and terrible with the next. Running may work well with one group and rewards may work better with the next.
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Post by coachdawhip on May 6, 2007 10:39:38 GMT -6
WE have old tires, we make them run with around the football field holding, if it's grades, then it varies.
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Post by hoptions on May 6, 2007 22:41:14 GMT -6
Coach Jim
We have not used "the bench" system yet... We came up with it during a staff meeting this winter when we were addressing the discipline issues that we had to fix. We are a HS varsity staff and the HC and I have been coaching about 9 years now, the rest of the staff has about 3 years each.
We also have some positive reinforcements planed. Things like O player of the weak, D player of the week, Special Teams player of the week. They will have their pictures put up in school in the lunch room and be in the daily announcements. We are also thinking of giving a material reward, but that cost money and we are not sure where to get it as of yet.
But we were 9-4 last year...6-3 in the regular season and went to the regional final before we last to the state runners up when our field goal attempt went wide right.
Thanks
Hoptions
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Post by rbcoacher on May 7, 2007 9:39:12 GMT -6
As a huge fan or track and of the benefits it has on our football players, I am oppossed to running for punishment If we are going to ask our kid to run a quarter for conditioning or run 40's, how can we make him run the same thing for being late? Whatever the punishment, don't use running to enforce it!!! That is, if you want your athletes to come out for track!!!! Weighted vests, bear crawls, bleachers(although real close to running), updowns, etc...usually will get there attention.
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Post by superpower on May 7, 2007 9:45:22 GMT -6
When I really need to get their attention, I use frozen push-ups, something I learned in basic training years ago. Put them in a push-up position, and when you tell them, "Down," they go down until their nose is just off the ground. They are not allowed to touch stomach or knees to the ground, and they have to hold themselves in that position until I say, "Up," which usually takes awhile. Five or ten frozen push-ups are usually all that is necessary to get their attention.
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