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Post by fantom on May 13, 2016 10:56:27 GMT -6
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Post by jrk5150 on May 13, 2016 11:44:17 GMT -6
I have coached in Pop Warner for 11 years - 3 at the Mitey Mite, 7 at Junior Pee Wee, and 1 at Pee Wee. This rule impacts Mitey Mite and Junior Pee Wee. Tiny Mite already had no kickoff so no big deal there.
I have a couple of reactions.
My initial reaction is one of principle. It drives me friggin bonkers that Pop Warner struts around like they know better on all things. They did this crap with heads up tackling, which they now mandate. When that first came out, a lot of youth coaches had objections around the head placement during the tackle. Pop Warner just basically said do it our way or you are an unsafe coach. Then this past year, all of the sudden the head placement is different than it was three years ago - and reflects what we've been saying the whole time. So our "unsafe" comments from three years ago are now their "safe" way of doing it. Personally, I think Pop Warner is run by a bunch of clowns based on what comes down from them.
As for the rule itself. Mitey Mite is a "non-competitive" division, they don't maintain standings, no playoffs, etc. TO ME, based on my 3 years coaching and 12 years observing (the 11 years in the program plus 1 watching as a parent of a mitey mite player), it's not a big deal either way. The speed of collisions on kickoffs was really a non-issue, just about every one was a de facto on-sides kick anyway.
Junior Pee Wee is a whole 'nother ballgame. They have playoffs. They have a national championship. Turnovers are HUGE in youth football in general, many times they are the DETERMINING factor in games. And on-sides kicking is a big part of getting or preventing turnovers. We have won games and lost games largely based on on-sides kick recoveries (or lack thereof). And I would guess on-sides kicks represent easily over half of all kick-offs at this age level.
What this rule also does is basically make it harder to come back late in the game. You score, now you can't get the ball right back, you have to at least run off 4 plays with refs who really aren't all that great on the clock - they just want to get the game moving to the next one.
Not to mention - 35 yard line?!? I can't remember a team ever actually taking possession of a kick-off - us or the competition - at the 35 yard line. I don't know where they got that number - most kick-offs at these age levels end up with the ball at the 45-50.
Not to mention, again, that the speed of collisions during kick-offs at 9-10 years old is pretty much negligible, even when "kicking deep".
If you are concerned about the speed of collisions, then these are the exact age groups that AREN'T an issue. In Junior Midgets and Midgets (essentially middle school) you are far more likely to see kicks that go deep, with full speed collisions. And the athletes are more mature, some entering puberty, so the speeds are much greater in that way as well.
So basically, PW is piloting a rule change at the exact wrong levels of play. Yet again, they strut around like they are accomplishing something.
It's a 100% PR move. And from that perspective, maybe it's a good idea. But they are not gaining any safety while hurting competition at one of those levels. Maybe that's a good trade-off, maybe not.
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Post by bobgoodman on May 13, 2016 17:43:02 GMT -6
As a safety issue, it's silly. What's the evidence KOs have been especially dangerous in children's football, even with 14 YOs?
However, many youth leagues take away some or all of the kicking game to compensate for the shortage of practice time. If you don't have to practice kick plays, at least you can use the time otherwise, which many coaches appreciate. When I was in HS in the 1960s our freshman team didn't have kickoffs or other free kicks.
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Post by 33coach on May 13, 2016 18:17:44 GMT -6
As a safety issue, it's silly. What's the evidence KOs have been especially dangerous in children's football, even with 14 YOs? However, many youth leagues take away some or all of the kicking game to compensate for the shortage of practice time. If you don't have to practice kick plays, at least you can use the time otherwise, which many coaches appreciate. When I was in HS in the 1960s our freshman team didn't have kickoffs or other free kicks. In my 7 years of coaching JRHS ball I've had 1 kid get hurt on a kickoff. Due to a late hit out of bounds that sent him head first into the bench.... Bad times.. But it had nothing to do with the kick off itself. |
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Post by coachrobpsl on May 17, 2016 6:13:13 GMT -6
I think what many HS coaches don't realize about youth football, especially the ages in question in the rule change, is the overwhelming always onside kick philosophy(never punt is another but not an issue here of course). With so little time allowed with our teams, special teams don't get nearly enough time. It is just easier and safer(from a coverage pov) to onsides all the time. JRK covers my feelings on it pretty well. The 35 yard line is terrible field position at those age groups. Special teams have always been an equalizer for a less talented opponent. Creating an easy turnover on the ko for youth coaches has always been one of the keys to beating a more talented team. Taking that away tilts the favor even further to the more talented teams.
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Post by IronmanFootball on May 18, 2016 11:26:09 GMT -6
Starting from the 30 for my HS team would mean not scoring very often. How many 70 yard drives do PW teams put together?
Onside kicks can be dangerous so I get it / probably a perception > reality thing though.
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Post by 33coach on May 18, 2016 12:05:53 GMT -6
I think what many HS coaches don't realize about youth football, especially the ages in question in the rule change, is the overwhelming always onside kick philosophy(never punt is another but not an issue here of course). With so little time allowed with our teams, special teams don't get nearly enough time. It is just easier and safer(from a coverage pov) to onsides all the time. JRK covers my feelings on it pretty well. The 35 yard line is terrible field position at those age groups. Special teams have always been an equalizer for a less talented opponent. Creating an easy turnover on the ko for youth coaches has always been one of the keys to beating a more talented team. Taking that away tilts the favor even further to the more talented teams. i dont buy the "not enough time" BS - if you dont have enough time then you need to run a more effecient practice. our youngest levels around here practice 3 days a week...2 hours a day and they seem to get everything they need done. - granted they are into the Dave Cisar dont waste a minute at practice stuff, which is amazing if you buy into it. |
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Post by jrk5150 on May 18, 2016 13:01:52 GMT -6
Onside kicks can be dangerous so I get it / probably a perception > reality thing though. Other way around - regular kicks are far more dangerous. On-sides kicks are like a fumble drill. Lots of rolling around, lots of little owies, but no real full speed collisions or injuries. When kids are chasing a ball for 25-30 yards, that's when you might see a nasty hit, especially a blind side type. I did have a kid get a concussion on a kick-off. We're mandated to kick deep during mercy rule (up by 28 pts), and a kid on my team got blind-sided and just about knocked out covering a kick-off. We are primarily on-sides, but we DO practice "deep kick" coverage, so at least I don't feel guilty like I would if we hadn't practiced it. I hadn't even thought about that - yet another "way to go Pop Warner" moment. Let's make things less safe when the game is lopsided... Their mercy rules include no on-sides kicks, can't run outside, can't pass. So basically it's 11 in the box on D and full speed kick off coverage. They do give you the ability to protest if the D does put 11 in the box and run outside for safety purposes, but that's an awful lot to put on a volunteer coach standing on the sideline trying to figure out wtf is going on. Hard to see the exact defensive alignment when you can't have anyone in the box. Like I said - every time Pop Warner sets rules, it's clown college in session... |
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Post by bobgoodman on May 18, 2016 23:37:14 GMT -6
I think what many HS coaches don't realize about youth football, especially the ages in question in the rule change, is the overwhelming always onside kick philosophy(never punt is another but not an issue here of course). With so little time allowed with our teams, special teams don't get nearly enough time. It is just easier and safer(from a coverage pov) to onsides all the time. JRK covers my feelings on it pretty well. The 35 yard line is terrible field position at those age groups. Special teams have always been an equalizer for a less talented opponent. Creating an easy turnover on the ko for youth coaches has always been one of the keys to beating a more talented team. Taking that away tilts the favor even further to the more talented teams. i dont buy the "not enough time" BS - if you dont have enough time then you need to run a more effecient practice. our youngest levels around here practice 3 days a week...2 hours a day and they seem to get everything they need done. - granted they are into the Dave Cisar dont waste a minute at practice stuff, which is amazing if you buy into it. We usually get less time than that. "Not enough time" is not BS for us. |
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Post by 33coach on May 19, 2016 8:55:32 GMT -6
i dont buy the "not enough time" BS - if you dont have enough time then you need to run a more effecient practice. our youngest levels around here practice 3 days a week...2 hours a day and they seem to get everything they need done. - granted they are into the Dave Cisar dont waste a minute at practice stuff, which is amazing if you buy into it. We usually get less time than that. "Not enough time" is not BS for us. How do you get less then 6 hours a week? At that point id call that an overall safety issue... Not enough time in pads... |
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Post by bobgoodman on May 19, 2016 10:06:14 GMT -6
We usually get less time than that. "Not enough time" is not BS for us. How do you get less then 6 hours a week? One of the past 2 yrs., both pre- and in-season we got only 2 sessions a week. Once the season started, we also got to practice on game day if we had a bye.
In Nov. (sometimes late Oct.) we practice only indoors, unpadded, and only once/week.
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Post by 33coach on May 19, 2016 12:01:54 GMT -6
How do you get less then 6 hours a week? One of the past 2 yrs., both pre- and in-season we got only 2 sessions a week. Once the season started, we also got to practice on game day if we had a bye.
In Nov. (sometimes late Oct.) we practice only indoors, unpadded, and only once/week.
see that to me is more unsafe then any kickoff. not giving the kids enough time in pads.... |
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Post by bobgoodman on May 19, 2016 14:38:37 GMT -6
One of the past 2 yrs., both pre- and in-season we got only 2 sessions a week. Once the season started, we also got to practice on game day if we had a bye.
In Nov. (sometimes late Oct.) we practice only indoors, unpadded, and only once/week.
see that to me is more unsafe then any kickoff. not giving the kids enough time in pads.... Except for those weeks indoors at the end, though, all our practices are suited up, starting ~2 weeks before we pick teams.
Most years we've gotten more practice than the above, but not much more.
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Post by coachrobpsl on Jun 2, 2016 10:37:25 GMT -6
I think what many HS coaches don't realize about youth football, especially the ages in question in the rule change, is the overwhelming always onside kick philosophy(never punt is another but not an issue here of course). With so little time allowed with our teams, special teams don't get nearly enough time. It is just easier and safer(from a coverage pov) to onsides all the time. JRK covers my feelings on it pretty well. The 35 yard line is terrible field position at those age groups. Special teams have always been an equalizer for a less talented opponent. Creating an easy turnover on the ko for youth coaches has always been one of the keys to beating a more talented team. Taking that away tilts the favor even further to the more talented teams. i dont buy the "not enough time" BS - if you dont have enough time then you need to run a more effecient practice. our youngest levels around here practice 3 days a week...2 hours a day and they seem to get everything they need done. - granted they are into the Dave Cisar dont waste a minute at practice stuff, which is amazing if you buy into it. We ran super efficient practices. Very well planned and every minute was accounted for and everything was super high speed. We got more done in one practice than most youth teams get done in 3. But that's us. Most youth coaches have no idea how to plan a single practice let alone how to lay out an entire preseason where everything is installed and then backed up and added upon during the season. So what happens is specials get forgotten about. I don't agree with it either and think it is absolutely poor practicing but the fact is most youth teams practice poorly. You talked about in another thread about trying to train coaches. Almost all youth coaches are being trained by a guy who received none himself so the cycle just gets worse. |
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