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Post by ocinaz on May 19, 2006 18:40:41 GMT -6
Just wondering how other states work these two types of schools into their classification? Here in AZ they are mostly small schools, 2A out of 5A. A couple petition up to play 5A ball. Lately they have been dominating in all sports, boys and girls. We used to play in the same league as them, I really liked the comp, and it is what made our conference different. I don't want to get in a argument session over what's right and wrong with private schools, just wondering how they are classified in different states. A lot of people, coaches, administrators, piss and moan about them every chance they get.
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Post by bulldog on May 19, 2006 19:50:44 GMT -6
California - In our section (SJS), the schools are classified by attendance. No changing classifications.
In the Bay Area (CCS), most of the top privates are in the large school classification, but anyone is entitled to petition up to the 'open' division. There is a catholic school league of 7 teams that is historically one of the best leagues in the state.
De La Salle is in a different section than the catholic school league, but is in the largest school division within their section. They don't really belong to a league. They are a recruiting machine and they get phenominal athletes (the school with the most NFL draftees this year).
I'm not real sure about the southern part of the state.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on May 19, 2006 19:54:23 GMT -6
In Nebraska there has been a lot of talk (and several proposals) to have a private school 1.35 multiplier (so if a private school's enrollment is 100, the will be considered 135 for classification purposes). It was very big talk last year (5 of 6 state champs were private schools). There have been a lot of modifications to the 1.35 rule (such as looking at special needs students, free/reduced lunch students... nothing that will fly). I don't know if anything will change; I do know talks on the subject will never go away unless/until it is changed.
As it is now, the largest 28 are class A (may be expanded to 32 next cycle), the next 32 are B then the remaining 11 man are split in to 2 divisions (about 130 schools) and are class C-1 and C-2. The same is done with 8 man (about 135 schools) who are D-1 and D-2. Six man is no longer sanctioned (though it was invented in Chester, NE), but there are still 12 6-man teams (if the number reaches 16, they will again be sanctioned... it looked like it was close to happening this last time around, but a few last minute co-ops moved the number back down)
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Post by airman on May 19, 2006 20:28:51 GMT -6
IN wisconsin they used to be seperated. privates had their own and publics had their own.
now they both play together and there is a lot of piss and moaning.
It used to be public coach(wiaa championships) called the WISAA(private school)championship second class. they made no bones about it. IT was WISAA schools could not beat the WIAA(public) schools. how that privates have won some championships, the public schools want them out.
General rule of thumb in wisconsin, when a public wins it is throught hard work, team chemistry and dedication. When a private wins, they some how cheated, they recruited.
that is how divided it is.
now over the border in illinois, OMGosh, it is heated. multiplier of 1.65 is in the works.
they call it the ottoplier, after otto zeman, the riverside brookfield coach. he runs the five wide offense and has a video out.
well otto had to go throught Joliet Catholic. If you know anythink about Illinios football, JCA is a power house. they smash the livign daylights out of you running the double wing(not markham or wyatt style). they are a nasty team every year. they bulldoze people.
they lost of another public power house this past year. Morris is the game which beat them. morris's star rb when for 300 plus and that is why they won the game.
so it depends on where you are. there is talk in both wi and ill about seperating publics and privates again.
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Post by ocinaz on May 19, 2006 20:36:00 GMT -6
There was talk of a 1.5 multiplier here in AZ. I say was because once word got out the the Arizona Interscholastic Association (AIA) was looking into doing this, a former board member of a private school, who is now in politics, piggyback an item onto another bill that would basically ban this. Crazy s**t going on, so I have no idea what the plan is now.
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Post by wildcat on May 19, 2006 20:52:56 GMT -6
I will add that, as a coach working in an Illinois public high school, I find the multiplier to be mean-spirited, vindicative, and certainly NOT fair. Not only do Illinois "open enrollment" schools get the 1.65 multiplier slapped on them, many of them get double-tapped because the multiplier is applied to "football" enrollment, not actual school enrollment. In Illinois, "football" enrollment is determined by the size of the schools your school plays. So, for example, a school like Newman Central Catholic in Sterling, Illinois, with about 240 students, gets a "football" enrollment added to that number AND THEN gets the 1.65 multiplier added to that! Talk about overkill! So, the result is that Newman Central Catholic, a school with less than 240 students, ends up with a "mulitiplied" enrollment of 424! If they played in the playoff class based on 240 students, they would be solidly 1A (smallest class). With the multiplier, they are probably 3A! The shame of the multiplier is that, because a handful of private schools have had a lot of success in a handful of sports (Joliet Catholic, Providence Catholic, Addison Driscoll, Lombard Montini, Elgin St. Edwards, etc, etc), EVERY private school in Illinois gets the multiplier slapped on them. I have a buddy who works at a private school in the city of Chicago. School has never been to the playoffs in football. So now, on the off chance that they win 5 games and get in to the playoffs, they don't get to play a school close to them in size and enrollment. They will get "multiplied" and have to play some big suburban school gthat will probably beat my buddy's team 30-0. Really fair. Well done, Illinois High School Association!  |
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Post by biggroff on May 19, 2006 21:16:19 GMT -6
I am a privat school coach in Illinois. The multiplier is 1.65 and it is insane. We are a school of 480 (all boys). Our enrollment is 960.
With the multiplier our enrollment for football is 1584. Therefore we have to play schools in the range of 1400 - 2000 in the playoffs.
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Post by tog on May 20, 2006 6:25:26 GMT -6
they should be seperate
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Post by wingtol on May 20, 2006 6:34:54 GMT -6
In PA they are all together and classified by enrollment. Many people are pushing that all private schools should have to play 4A(the highest class). I coached at a catholic school that choose to play 4A witht he enrollment of a small 3A and people still complain. The school I am at now just droped to 1A(smallest) and no one seems to care that we are playing in that class. Sure private schools have an advantage in recruting but we are seeing that at all schools here now. In 4A I think there have only been 2 state champs that were private schools in football and people still moan and complain, seems they only get mad when private schools win. When they are loosing or having a bad year people are lining up around the block to play you. Its a touchy subject everywhere.
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Post by tog on May 20, 2006 6:46:33 GMT -6
this is a touchy subject, I can be quite passionate about it as well
lets all just keep in mind here that this subject can surely be talked about, just try and be civil
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Post by blb on May 20, 2006 6:51:14 GMT -6
Michigan all are together. Any school can opt to play up a class in other sports (football playoffs are determined by divisions - top 32 that qualify are D-I, next 32 D-II, etc.)
We have about 620 schools playing football. The parochial schools have won an inordinate number of football state titles compared to the percentage of teams that come from privates.
So, the coaches' association is currently pushing for a multiplier. But the representative council of the MHSAA will never pass it. Personally I don't feel strongly about it, but I haven't coached against a private school in 12 years, and that one was bad.
Besides, we have "school of choice" here so recruiting is not limited to private schools. There is an "undue influence" rule that is not enforced very vigorously.
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Post by seagull73 on May 20, 2006 7:19:54 GMT -6
In Maryland here is the break down:
1. Public 1A (small schools) to 4A (large schools) 4 different state champs.
2. Private schools that don't recruit & offer scholarships. Often in leagues of their own and never in public school leagues.
3. Private schools that recruit & offer scholarships. Mostly are in a league & play each other. These are where the nationally ranked teams come from in our state.
It use to be that a public & private school would play each other from time to time but not so much anymore. Our playoff system has changed and there insn't any reason to play a private school powerhouse or a small private school either.
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Post by phantom on May 20, 2006 7:51:52 GMT -6
In Virginia the private schools are in a completely different state association.
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Post by coachseven on May 20, 2006 8:17:05 GMT -6
In Oklahoma the private schools have to petition to be accepted by the state organization. Once in they are classified by enrollment. They have to follow the rules of the public schools. The one that choose not to play as independents.
They are talking about a multiplier in our state also. I am not real sure of all the details. I seriously doubt that it passes.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on May 20, 2006 10:28:57 GMT -6
Posted by tog on Today at 7:25am
they should be seperate
I can see that in the heavily populated states... I don't think it would work in this area (NE and surrounding states)... too few schools. In class C and D (two smallest) 20 of (approx.) 260 schools are private across the entire state). I guess they could possibly compete with public schools in the regular season and have their own playoff format- then the new complaint would be private schools have a 1-10 odds of being state champion, public (4 divisions) have 1-60 odds.
I did vote for the multiplier when it was proposed 2 years ago... not sure I would now. There is a new proposal in the works to have sport classification by gender enrollment. That makes more sense- then the private (or public) schools that have a 2-1 male-female ratio could possibly play in a different class for boys and girls sports. (it would not affect sport schedules- with the exception of football, we play all other sports in conferences which have schools from as many as 4 classifications).
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Post by airman on May 20, 2006 12:06:17 GMT -6
personally I would like to see seperate public and private playoffs and then have the champions meet each other in a public/private show down.
state champions would face each other to determine the true state champion.
to me, if you just seperate them, you do not have a true state champion. it would be like in the south when they had a black school champion and a white school champion. we really never knew who was the true state champion.
I my way of thinking, if you are unwilling to play the best be it public or private, you have a hollow state champion.
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Post by phantom on May 20, 2006 12:42:38 GMT -6
In Virginia there is very little interest for privates to get into the public playoffs by either the private or public schools. Only a handful of private schools have the resources or have made the commitment to play with the public schools at the top levels. In my area, Tidewater (SE VA. Virginia Beach area) public and private school football are completely different worlds.
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Post by airman on May 20, 2006 12:54:27 GMT -6
In Virginia there is very little interest for privates to get into the public playoffs by either the private or public schools. Only a handful of private schools have the resources or have made the commitment to play with the public schools at the top levels. In my area, Tidewater (SE VA. Virginia Beach area) public and private school football are completely different worlds. so do privates have their own playoffs in virginia? I know in texas I have talked to coaches and privates down there are seperate and you really want to be at the public schools down there if you want to be a football coach. |
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Post by phantom on May 20, 2006 13:13:52 GMT -6
In Virginia there is very little interest for privates to get into the public playoffs by either the private or public schools. Only a handful of private schools have the resources or have made the commitment to play with the public schools at the top levels. In my area, Tidewater (SE VA. Virginia Beach area) public and private school football are completely different worlds. so do privates have their own playoffs in virginia? I know in texas I have talked to coaches and privates down there are seperate and you really want to be at the public schools down there if you want to be a football coach. <<< Yes. Privates have their own playoffs and I've never heard of any support for changing that. Like Texas, in Virginia public schools are the place to coach. With few exceptions, private schools here do not have the money, parental interest, or administrative support to compete with public schools. There are exceptions. When Bobby Ross left the Chargers there was serious speculation that he'd take the job at Benedictine, a Catholic school in Richmond of which he's an alum. There are a few others but they are few and far between. Most private schools here are very academically or religiously oriented and are not willing to make a commitment to football. That's not a slam. They look at football as a recreational activity.The public schools take it more seriously. |
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Post by groundchuck on May 20, 2006 13:48:42 GMT -6
In Minnesota they are all together as part of the MSHSL. I coach at a public school. Every year we play 1-2 private schools. Do I think they recruit? Not really. Are there some that do? Sure there are. Are there public schools who use open enrollment to recruit? Yes. Do the majority of private and public schools follow the rules? I believe we all do.
I have heard certain coaches talk about wanting a multiplier up here. Thing is here Catholic schools don't win a disproportionate number of state titles in football. There are some private school powers in the metro area in class 2A-5A but none of them won it all this year. In fact no private school won a football title in MN this year, and only two of them played in the title game. Totino Grace won it in 2003-2004 but got beat in the quarterfinals this year.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 20, 2006 14:03:31 GMT -6
In Louisiana, we seem to do things backwards as usual. All schools are in the same organization, and play together.
As the rest of the country seems to be going to modifer system, LA just recently passed a rule to restrict any school from being able to play higher than its natural classification. This action was based on the fact that two of the smaller enrollment schools (Evangel in Shreveport and John Curtis in New Orleans) were winning state championships in the top two classes on a nearly yearly basis over the last 10 years. (curtis currently has over 25 state titles in 30 years spanning classifications 2A, 3A, and 4A. Evangel has won a state title every year barring two since 1993 I believe).
At first, LA allowed for any school to play in any classification it wanted to. John Curtis has been a dominant football power for the last 25 or so years. They tended to remain humble as an institution, rarely posting blowout wins with their split back veer until the playoffs rolled around. They were competitve in other sports, winning some titles in girls sports and a few in baseball, but never competed in the top class.
However, Evangel began to draw the ire of many schools as it quickly moved from the lowest class 1A, to the highest class 5A in seven short year, winning a football title every year but one in that span. With their high octane offense driven by 5 or 6 consecutive Div. 1A quarterbacks (three of them being coaches sons who no longer work with the program after their sons departure) they routinely scored 50+ by halftime.
The louisiana principals began to "wonder" how such a small school (coed enrollment of below 300 students for most of the last 15 years could produce a roster such as the one below :
1 Ramon Broadway RB/DB 12 190 5'10"
2 Zach Summage LB 10 180 5'10"
3 Jeremy Little WR 11 175 6'1"
4 Brent Collins SS 12 175 5'10"
5 Jeff Hulett WR 12 185 6'0"
6 Derrick Williams DB 12 180 6'0"
7 Dez Duron QB/WR 9 160 5'10"
8 Alan Rogers WR/DB 12 195 6'3"
9 Shawn Jones WR 12 185 6'0"
11 Lydell Smith LB 11 210 6'0"
12 Jordan Powell QB 11 195 6'0"
13 Dan Kreamer QB/DB 12 198 6'1"
14 Chase Jennings WR 12 160 5'10"
15 Michael Powers K 12 160 6'0"
16 Pat Chitman DB 11 165 5'10"
17 Keith Barefield RB 10 210 6'2"
18 Reicho Lynch LB 11 185 6'2"
19 Deleon Moss WR 10 170 5'10"
21 Jacobon Watson RB 11 210 6'0"
22 Cederrick Tyson RB/DB 9 190 5'10"
23 Jawaan Rountree DB 11 140 5'5"
25 Johnathen Blades WR 9 140 5'8"
26 John Stockton WR 9 145 5'9"
27 Quinn Giles RB/DB 9 180 5'10"
30 Matt Morvan DB 12 170 5'10"
31 Chrisopher Back WR 9 120 5'6"
32 Johnathon Collins DL 12 220 5'8"
34 Charles Cloman LB 11 215 5'11"
35 Jeff Prejean DB 11 155 5'10"
36 Mathew Buckingham RB 12 180 5'10"
37 Spencer Smith LB 10 170 5'9"
42 Jared Barron DL 11 235 6'4"
43 Andy Smith DB 10 135 5'9"
46 Brandon Jackson LB 11 210 6'1"
47 Dale Ducote WR 9 135 5'6"
50 Jacob Kesterson DL 10 220 6'0"
51 Caleb Dixon OL 11 210 6'0"
53 Josh Bezucha DL 12 240 6'1"
54 Troy Evans OL 11 225 6'3"
55 Blake Cogswell OL/DL 9 275 6'2"
56 Jon Bell OL/DL 12 255 6'2"
57 Josh McAlpin OL 9 185 5'5"
58 Eric Waterfallen OL 10 200 6'1"
59 Josh Cogswell OL/DL 12 275 5'11"
60 Dennis Campbell OL 9 185 5'9"
62 John Spenik OL 12 230 6'2"
63 Larry Thomas OL 10 280 6'1"
65 Zach Calhoun OL 10 240 6'2"
66 Greg Greathouse OL/DL 12 250 6'5"
67 Joshua Layton OL 11 245 6'3"
68 Chuckie Beyer DL 12 305 6'2"
70 Doug Stroud OL 12 340 6'8"
75 Reginald Curttie OL 12 230 6'4"
76 Blaine Russ OL 10 230 6'3"
78 Jamarr Thompson OL 12 320 6'7"
80 Mathew Cash CB 12 186 5'11"
81 Jacoby Watson WR 11 190 5'11"
83 Roderick Banks WR 10 190 6'3"
84 Cody Patterson QB/DB 9 130 5'10"
85 Trey Wilson DB 9 162 5'8"
(how would some of you small school coaches like THAT kind of roster on a friday?)
During this time period of football dominance, Evangel has had a season where they weren't able to field a girls basketball team due to lack of interest, and had a few basketball seasons where they did not win a game. This earned the label "football factory" for the school.
Since these two schools were already playing up, the LA principals have decided to take a different route. The thought process behind the "no play up rule" is apparently that when stuck in the lower levels, the natural recruitment process ("kids want to play at our school, we aren't recruiting them") will somehow be subdued, and a school with an enrollment of 300 kids would field a team that LOOKED like it came from just 300 kids. It remains to be seen if this strategy will restore the competitive balance in the state.
It must be noted that during this turmoil over the two private schools, West Monroe (public) high school has been unchallenged by any school in top class other than Evangel. It is widely regarded that Had Evangel not played up in the top class from 2000-2004, WM would have won 10 consecutive state titles from 1996-2006. So it isn't just a "public/private" thing. It is more of a HAVES vs HAVE NOTS.
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Post by seagull73 on May 20, 2006 17:45:43 GMT -6
In VA if Atlantic Shores (I might be messing up the name) from Va beach can't compete with the public schools you guys are great! When I coached at a small MD private school we visited them and they were the real deal. At least 3 or 4 D1 guys! Lets just say it was a long ride home.
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Post by amikell on May 20, 2006 19:39:58 GMT -6
I'll just second phantom's comments in VA. I coach at a Private school here. There is even some divide among the private schools in terms of what is considered ethical recruiting. Some schools have been basically blackballed by state teams and can't get enough games to qualify for the state playoffs.
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Post by coachmacplains on May 20, 2006 23:16:48 GMT -6
In South Dakota they are all part of the SDHSAA and compete against one another. As senatorblutarsky said in above post, it is not practical to separate them in a low population state; private schools would likely have to go out of state to get a schedule, something that used to happen. With regard to the larger question about competitiveness, simply comparing "public" and "private" is not necessarily comparing apples to apples. I do have a few observations on the subject:
1. Not all private schools have the same mission or competitive level. I coach at a small Christian boarding school whose primary constituency is ranch kids from west of the Missouri River who have had no playing experience before they come here. This is light years removed from YouNameIt Prep in suburban Baltimore, et al.
2. South Dakota has open enrollment, allowing students to attend school out of their home district. This would seem to give kids incentive to go to a town in the vicinity that is competitive; this may happen, but there is no advantage for either public or private. Sioux Falls O'Gorman, a private Catholic school that has won multiple state championships, is the smallest school in the big class (11AA), and had to petition to get in there. They won before open enrollment, and they are winning after it.
3. It seems to me that private schools take a lot of hits for recruiting, finding places for kids, etc., but what about public schools that have great success? West Central (public) has won seven of the last ten state titles in 11A (and ranked ahead of O'Gorman by Maxpreps), but I can't remember anyone accusing them of recruiting.
4. Economics. Some people are willing and able to pay more to send their kids to an "elite" school, while the public schools more or less get what they get. I can see the argument that in some areas this may be justification for separating them. However, it seems to me that it still comes down to the people in the programs to make them successful, from coaches to administrators to supporters. Money can't buy some of those things, albeit they can sometimes be hired away.
I do have a bit of a sensitive spot here, but I never could understand the argument that private school people have the money, clout and power to buy success on the field. Many of our kids sell calves to be able to make the sacrifice to pay tuition. It's a big country with multitudinous reasons as to why parents send their kids to a particular school. Comparing "public" to "private" doesn't necessarily tell us a lot. It might be just as legitimate to compare "rich districts" to "poor districts", "white" vs. "black", "city" vs. "suburban" vs. "mid-sized community" vs. "farm community", etc., but to what point. Let's coach the kids and let somebody else worry about that stuff.
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Post by williamcrehan on May 21, 2006 5:58:11 GMT -6
Gender enrollment sound like a great way to do it and the most fair, and a very easy solution. Has any state out there done this?
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Post by los on May 21, 2006 9:31:32 GMT -6
In Ga. here they have separate associations for the most part. Although a private school can become part of the public system within guidelines, I'm pretty sure. I know of a couple parochial schools in public school conferences. But to my knowledge, here in georgia the true public schools traditionally dominate the 5 different public school classes, 1a thru 5a. The privates do there own thing in their league. Wow, d-50 just read that post, yeah a single-a size school like that here(300 students), would never have a roster like that, but they would sure love to, lol! For that matter, lots of big 5a schools would probably love to have a team like that!
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Post by coachd5085 on May 21, 2006 11:46:02 GMT -6
Los... that last line speaks volumes. I think thats why LA is going the opposite direction as most states. By playing up, the few powerhouse privates in LA were able to garner enough attention and interest to build teams that were stronger than the teams in the top class. It appeared to other principals that the snowball could not be stopped, and with each passing season, more and more D1 scholarships (usually 6- 8 each season) were stemming from this little 280+ enrollment school in shreveport. So they are trying a different approach.
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Post by sls on May 21, 2006 14:22:48 GMT -6
Indiana just tried to in-act a 1.5 multiplier, the IHSAA voted against 15-0.
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Post by coachdawhip on May 21, 2006 15:37:08 GMT -6
los, not true Marist, GAC, Lovett are per. powerhouses here in GA in 4A through 1A, they just can't win state in football, but in every other sport they are usally the state champions. GA we do use the 1.5 mutliplier the private schools go deep in the playoffs they just haven't been able to win state consistently all but One of them that is.
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Post by tog on May 21, 2006 17:37:21 GMT -6
football is what matters whip
lol
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