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Post by John Knight on Oct 30, 2015 8:00:36 GMT -6
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pistola
Sophomore Member
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Post by pistola on Oct 30, 2015 8:30:29 GMT -6
My POV is im glad I live in small town Texas I guess..
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Post by newt21 on Oct 30, 2015 8:54:15 GMT -6
We pray every day, and before every half of a game. I tell the kids they can participate if they choose but they don't have to.
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Post by olinedude on Oct 30, 2015 10:23:59 GMT -6
If I remove all personal religious beliefs and just look at the law, the coach should be allowed to pray as long as it isn't mandated that the kids participate. If you told a female muslim coach she couldn't be on a court with any kind of head covering, any court is going to deem that a violation of the bill of rights. But, we're talking about Washington state here. Ultimately I think the coach will be reinstated when the lawyers fight this out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2015 12:26:54 GMT -6
It is religion either way. Atheist or hose proclaiming to be, are imposing there religious beliefs on everybody.
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Post by fantom on Oct 30, 2015 12:44:18 GMT -6
Let's keep this thread focused on the immediate question at hand (Not to say that anybody has gotten off track yet). Longtime members here will understand that religion is one of the topics that can get a thread going sideways very quickly so...
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Post by coachphillip on Oct 30, 2015 13:14:27 GMT -6
I'm not religious and am particularly careful about doing stuff like this within team settings. That being said, I don't think anything wrong was taking place so long as the kids knew that they didn't have to pray if they didn't want to. A coach praying after the game with kids on his team who are religious, that's not anything that needs to get shut down.
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Post by jrk5150 on Oct 30, 2015 13:45:09 GMT -6
Here's what gets missed on this "anyone who doesn't want to doesn't have to" argument - it's hypocritical and completely contrary to what you guys are coaching every day. We all coach team as brotherhood, community, togetherness. Then a coach - an adult authority figure who by the nature of this sport has quite a bit of influence over his players - conducts a prayer and tell kids "you don't have to"...with the unsaid "join the rest of your brothers in publicly espousing my/our beliefs". And if that's not enough, it becomes a very public display of "I am different from everyone else" if you walk away/don't participate.
How about this - if you want to do this, how about you have everyone over to your house after the game where you can pray together all you want.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2015 14:36:24 GMT -6
Here's what gets missed on this "anyone who doesn't want to doesn't have to" argument - it's hypocritical and completely contrary to what you guys are coaching every day. We all coach team as brotherhood, community, togetherness. Then a coach - an adult authority figure who by the nature of this sport has quite a bit of influence over his players - conducts a prayer and tell kids "you don't have to"...with the unsaid "join the rest of your brothers in publicly espousing my/our beliefs". And if that's not enough, it becomes a very public display of "I am different from everyone else" if you walk away/don't participate. How about this - if you want to do this, how about you have everyone over to your house after the game where you can pray together all you want. Now it's a cult like meeting and you are doing god only what to those boys? That is where you want to take this. Removing religion from the public square is a religion. And that group is the first to scream intolerance. And thy are not being asked to sit at home. |
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Post by newt21 on Oct 30, 2015 14:41:24 GMT -6
Here's what gets missed on this "anyone who doesn't want to doesn't have to" argument - it's hypocritical and completely contrary to what you guys are coaching every day. We all coach team as brotherhood, community, togetherness. Then a coach - an adult authority figure who by the nature of this sport has quite a bit of influence over his players - conducts a prayer and tell kids "you don't have to"...with the unsaid "join the rest of your brothers in publicly espousing my/our beliefs". And if that's not enough, it becomes a very public display of "I am different from everyone else" if you walk away/don't participate. How about this - if you want to do this, how about you have everyone over to your house after the game where you can pray together all you want. We will have to agree to disagree on this. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2015 15:20:42 GMT -6
Every team I've ever played or coached on--all at public schools, BTW, had prayer before and after games. Typically this was led by a team chaplain. At one stop, we even had prayer before practice. It's just how things are done in my part of the country.
The thing is... if a school employee or official (like a coach) leads it, then it is technically unconstitutional under the 1st Amendment based on multiple court rulings. Same goes if it's done over the PA or by someone brought in by the school in any capacity. Students can start and lead their own prayers, but the minute a school official does it in front of a group or brings in someone else to do it, it legally constitutes an endorsement of religion.
Setting aside the philosophical arguments, those are the laws, so I can understand why the district asked this coach to stop making a public display and why he got in trouble after he disobeyed an order from his superiors to stop doing it right there. They could have been sued over it if he tried to influence others to join in.
It doesn't sound like he was doing that, however, which makes me think his own rights were violated. Does this coach have a case if it was just him praying by himself? Maybe. The courts will sort that out if it goes that far. That this had happened for years without anyone expressing an issue with it only to have people suddenly getting their pitchforks out now is sad.
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Post by jrk5150 on Oct 30, 2015 15:22:15 GMT -6
Here's what gets missed on this "anyone who doesn't want to doesn't have to" argument - it's hypocritical and completely contrary to what you guys are coaching every day. We all coach team as brotherhood, community, togetherness. Then a coach - an adult authority figure who by the nature of this sport has quite a bit of influence over his players - conducts a prayer and tell kids "you don't have to"...with the unsaid "join the rest of your brothers in publicly espousing my/our beliefs". And if that's not enough, it becomes a very public display of "I am different from everyone else" if you walk away/don't participate. How about this - if you want to do this, how about you have everyone over to your house after the game where you can pray together all you want. Now it's a cult like meeting and you are doing god only what to those boys? That is where you want to take this. Removing religion from the public square is a religion. And that group is the first to scream intolerance. And thy are not being asked to sit at home. Never said it was a cult. Let me be clear - I do not, for a moment, think that there is anything other than a good intent going on here. I am not saying or thinking or implying there's some sinister motive on this. I just said it was contrary to the togetherness concepts/atmosphere you coach. And it is. You disagreeing doesn't change that you are forcing your players to make a choice to publicly go along with you or not. We're in this together...except for this other big thing over here where you are choosing not to be. And here's where it goes really wrong - of all the players that stay and pray with you, do you think there are any that are doing it just so they won't be singled out and ostracized? Even a single one? And if there is, are you okay with that? I will own my own bias, and that I have some skepticism over the underlying motivations of public prayer like this. I do NOT think there are bad or evil or whatever motivations at all. But I do think there is an element of "everyone look at me, look at how good and pious I am" going on. I really don't think you would be standing there by yourself praying in the middle of the field every week if everyone walked away. But again - that's just an opinion/bias that I freely acknowledge, and I would be happy to be wrong about that. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2015 16:02:33 GMT -6
Nothing to with whether or not kids feel pressure, especially especially peer pressureHalf the kids out for football are out for a sense of belonging, peer pressure. By that logic, everybody should just stay home, in there bedrooms forever.
But I digress. The people who are for removing religion from the public square on constitutional basis also have to be against free speech. If religion is no longer legal than anybody can make words a matter of religion.. And then you are also against the right topeacefully assemble. Can't have any suggestion of a religious meeting any where. If that is the case you also against private property. Gov then has. Right decide what books you can have in your home because remember you were against religion in the public square. Suggested it should done in the privacy of your own home.
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Post by blb on Oct 30, 2015 16:12:22 GMT -6
Nothing to with whether or not kids feel pressure, especially especially peer pressureHalf the kids out for football are out for a sense of belonging, peer pressure. By that logic, everybody should just stay home, in there bedrooms forever. But I digress. The people who are for removing religion from the public square on constitutional basis also have to be against free speech. If religion is no longer legal than anybody can make words a matter of religion.. And then you are also against the right topeacefully assemble. Can't have any suggestion of a religious meeting any where. If that is the case you also against private property. Gov then has. Right decide what books you can have in your home because remember you were against religion in the public square. Suggested it should done in the privacy of your own home.
...and, now we are officially off the rails on this thread.
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Post by brophy on Oct 30, 2015 17:12:14 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 31, 2015 6:52:57 GMT -6
We pray every day, and before every half of a game. I tell the kids they can participate if they choose but they don't have to. As long as you are praying the Rosary, I support you 100%. Anything else though, and you should stop. |
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Post by fballcoachg on Nov 2, 2015 8:13:47 GMT -6
I try to avoid this by having the kids take a silent minute before we go out there and do whatever it is they need to do to get their mind right. Very diverse school and has worked well so far, I've actually had a few thank me for doing it that way
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