coachbigelow
Junior Member
Coach at Southern Virginia University
Posts: 261
|
Post by coachbigelow on May 24, 2007 17:27:45 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by coachlhs on May 27, 2007 18:06:07 GMT -6
I read the print article yesterday in ESPN Magazine. It was quite a good read.
As a perspective head coach and a long time assistant, I know all about the burnout and time away.
I take the time every week to spend it with my boys and my wife, doing something with the boys that is just us and something with the wife.
|
|
|
Post by tog on May 27, 2007 18:55:07 GMT -6
i don't have kids and my wife understands my drive no one will outwork me
period
|
|
|
Post by fbdoc on May 27, 2007 21:28:53 GMT -6
This has been discussed here before - there is a big difference between spending time in the office, watching video over and over and over and working with a high degree of efficiency. Tog - you and I have discussed this a couple of times ;)Coming in early and staying late does not necessarily make someone a good coach.
|
|
|
Post by ajreaper on May 27, 2007 21:39:35 GMT -6
Nothing and no one can force a person to place thier family second- that's a choice people make. right or wrong they do it to themselves.
|
|
|
Post by saintrad on May 27, 2007 23:01:57 GMT -6
This has been discussed here before - there is a big difference between spending time in the office, watching video over and over and over and working with a high degree of efficiency. Tog - you and I have discussed this a couple of times ;)Coming in early and staying late does not necessarily make someone a good coach. i agree with you on this, but didnt Steve Spurrier get fired becasue he DIDNT do this?
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on May 28, 2007 5:48:48 GMT -6
No, Steve Spurrier got fired because he didn't WIN.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on May 28, 2007 6:10:54 GMT -6
GRINDERS - it is a natural by-product of a competitive business / nature. Football isn't the only profession it happens in.
From George Allen to Urban Meyer, it is the 'standard' of work habits that we are held to, but the WINS (or lack there of) justify our toil. A coach's job is to be prepared for EVERYTHING come game night. How many hours does it take to feel confident you are prepared?
These studies are eeirly similar to the trend of heart disease / failure among coaches due to high hours, high stress, and poor diet.
|
|
|
Post by wildcat on May 28, 2007 7:03:41 GMT -6
I have worked for head coaches who had three-hour practices and two-hour meetings. I am now working for a guy who has 2-hour practices and 1-hour meetings, but we actually get a lot more done.
Sometimes, more isn't better...it is just more.
I think that Jon Gruden is a good example of that...he spends more hours in the office than any coach in the NFL, but what does he really have to show for it? He put together a pretty good team in Oakland and won a Super Bowl with Tony Dungy's team in Tampa Bay, but what has he done in the last 5 years?
Gruden's career record is just a shade over .500...I wonder how many man-hours each one of those victories cost?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2007 7:17:24 GMT -6
Yep. Efficiency and organization, especially at the level we coach, can determine the fate of your family and your team.
Our head coach is a great example. The guy is a hard charger and hard worker---never takes film home. It's a deal he has with the wife. If he has to stay longer to watch film and gameplan then that's the price of the job, but when he leaves the office, it's over. Needless to say it's more comfortable to bring film home and sit in the recliner and watch. She doesn't want that--he has to do it at the office.
And they're kids are the best ones you could ask for and I'd wager they have a better marriage than 90% of the people out there. He spends August to December coaching football. He spends the rest of the year being a great dad and husband. I have a TON of respect for him as a coach, but I have 10 times that for him as a family man.
|
|
|
Post by tvt50 on May 28, 2007 7:46:35 GMT -6
wildcat, Gruden is a PSYCHO that is what he does- WIN or LOSE!!
|
|
|
Post by tothehouse on May 28, 2007 9:36:05 GMT -6
This talk could be in the "overcoaching" section. I once got lambasted from our HC for needing to leave our Sunday meeting to go grocery shopping. I had been at the meeting for 4 HOURS. He then says that "nobody goes scouting with him....blah blah". Here is the catch............WE WERE 8-0 AT THE TIME HE SAID ALL OF THIS!!!
I have made it clear to him that family is first and he has gotten a lot better. In fact, we (I) have convinced him to cut back in the summer. We used to work right up until our "dead" period which started August 1st and went until the second week of August (Dead period you can lift and run, but no ball...most schools give this time to the kids for vacation etc.) We now will have from the middle of July to the middle of August off. Will it affect us? Yes it will....in a positive way. Players and coaches will come in fresh ready to go.
Having this time off also motivates me to get things ready (coaching wise, film breakdown wise) for the season. Organize things to be effectively efficient during the season to not waste a minute whether on the field or off.
|
|
|
Post by brownspit on May 28, 2007 11:57:55 GMT -6
the nfl is a much different scenario, since the coaches have the players around for a much longer day.
but i think a mistake coaches make in college and high school is that they do not correlate work ethic with their players ability to digest information. with the time limits and regulations, the players can only become efficient with a certain amount of football - working just to work can be inefficient. the players will never have the level of understanding for a game week that the coach does - but some coaches insist on operating at a level that the players cannot realistically achieve. they should coach players instead of hypotheticals.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on May 28, 2007 13:50:02 GMT -6
the nfl is a much different scenario, since the coaches have the players around for a much longer day. but i think a mistake coaches make in college and high school is that they do not correlate work ethic with their players ability to digest information. with the time limits and regulations, the players can only become efficient with a certain amount of football - working just to work can be inefficient. the players will never have the level of understanding for a game week that the coach does - but some coaches insist on operating at a level that the players cannot realistically achieve. they should coach players instead of hypotheticals. that was brilliant...and makes the most sense in this scenario
|
|
kdcoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 194
|
Post by kdcoach on May 29, 2007 8:44:45 GMT -6
Under the "less is more" scenario we went from two 3.5 hour practices in August to three two hour practices spaced out over the course of the day (we go from 11:00 to 8:30) this gave us more time to let the kids recuperate during the day. Also by letting them go later in the day and letting them sleep in during the morning we found that our kids went home, ate and went to sleep coming in with 10 - 11 hours rest as a minimum, they were much more refreshed and learned and retained much more information than they did the way we used to do it. We have also stayed much healthier during summer camp than we used to.
The final benefit was that since none of us are teachers it allowed my coaches to only have to take one week of vacation during August for camp. They can work half a day before they come to camp.
|
|
|
Post by spartancoach on May 29, 2007 12:02:59 GMT -6
My wife and, for some reason, my next door neighbor, appear happier when football season arrives.
|
|
|
Post by revtaz on May 29, 2007 13:50:28 GMT -6
My wife and, for some reason, my next door neighbor, appear happier when football season arrives. Excellent...
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on May 29, 2007 16:07:58 GMT -6
learn to be efficient.
learn to maximize your time at work ... SO you can maximize your time with your family
it is sad that some people think they "work hard" (and therefore a great coach) because they spend 20 hours a day at the office or whatever...
give me a break ...
and, there really isn't a reason why a high school coach would need to be working the exact same schedule as an nfl coach ... can someone explain this rationale of "we work same as them" to me, please? lol
|
|
|
Post by CoachMikeJudy on May 29, 2007 16:23:22 GMT -6
Worked on a couple different staffs, and the grinders were always guys that didn't trust others to help with the decision making.
To me, all I care about is getting the job done. I'm keeping our staff in the office until we have the gameplan framed up and everyone is on the same page. If it takes 4 hrs then GREAT, if it takes 14 hrs...ohh well, we had better learn to work better as a staff.
Bottom line, you stay until the job's done. Us coaches get paid the same whether it takes all morning or all day.
Work efficiently, hire guys you can trust to do the job, if they don't know how to break down film then teach them, and keep it business in the office.
|
|
|
Post by coachhortman on May 29, 2007 18:54:18 GMT -6
I have been working at Evangel since 2002, until this past year we never had meetings except on Sun afternoon for about 2 hours to put together a game plan. Coach Dunn and Coach Alexander believed in family time, our practices during the season went from 3:30 in the afternoon to 5:45 give or take a few minutes either way. The latest day during the season that I would have to stay is game night in which I would transfer game film to VHS now to DVD. Used to be one view of film now 3 views but after Sat morning film swap the rest of the weekend is mine to spend with my family except from 3 to 5 on Sun afternoons. All this only to say that with that system, the school has won 11 state championships from Class A to Class 5A. We have learned to be very efficent time wise and get the job done.
|
|
|
Post by coachmathis on May 29, 2007 18:59:55 GMT -6
I must admit that I am not what would be considered a hard worker. I most likely won't be coaching next year because I want to move to public school but I am pretty sure that there is no way in hell that Im going to be happy working the type of hours mentioned above. I am not saying that anyone else doesn't, but I love my wife and son to death and I love being around them. Consequently I like to leave work after practice. Sometimes we discuss a little bit but for the most part its adios amigos. I've been on a team where we spent very little time outside of the norm practice and school hours on football and finished the season 11-1 losing in OT the game before state. We spent maybe 30 minutes on game planning and occassionally we watched a little film after practice but for the most part it was up to the individual coach to be prepared and watch tape. I didn't put in much extra time with my baskebtall team either that advanced to the elite eight in the state tournament. A few discussions here or there after practice with my assistants and I scouted some district games but nothing more beyond that. I did all of my work within the time alloted. If I have to work those type of hours mentioned above, the only way I will make it as a coach is if I create my own school!! This may make me unhireable in some or even everyone on this boards eyes and that's fine but I can at least say that I have won doing it my way. I work smarter and not harder. Truth be told that no matter how long you prepare for games, unexpected things are still going to happen. I am a Steve Spurrier in at 9 doors hits me in the crack at 5 kinda of guy. My son and wife deserve to see me alot 12 months a year, not just 6. Again I am not knocking anyone elses decision or work habits these are just mine that are straight from my tiny brain. I work smarter not harder.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2007 19:15:17 GMT -6
I will say I greatly respect the people who do make it work. I'm single, no girlfriend, kids, anything, and I don't have time to get everything done that needs done. I truely respect the coaches that can be great husbands and fathers in this profession.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on May 29, 2007 19:34:40 GMT -6
one key element to being efficient is to have your answers/adjustments IN YOUR SYSTEM before hand. Base rules--If they do this we do this-- should be inplace staff wise before you even start camp. I thought this was the norm....lol...till I ran into a few programs who felt "we will cross that bridge when we come to it" was a good way to go.
Another key element..NO WAR STORIES in the office. This is probably the biggest time killer.
I think the main factor of the long hours is the LOSING. 9:30-9:45 rolls around on a Friday night, you look up at the scoreboard and the bad guys have more than you do. Why? Is there something else you could have done? Probably not. Does that matter? Not to 99% of the guys here. There will "always be" something else you could have done during those few hours..which extend till 7pm the following Friday night.
|
|
|
Post by easye17 on May 29, 2007 20:28:47 GMT -6
Here's a little different spin for you. One key thing I think Billick mentioned in that article is "what kind of father are you?" Brings up a good question - why do you coach?
I know why I coach: to help teach young high school men how to grow up and be good productive men in our society. And I also believe to be a good productive man, being a part of your family, spending time with your wife and kids, etc. is important and modeling that for your players is important.
Now don't get me wrong, I work my butt off and do a lot during the season and the off season as well. But its important to keep perspective in what we do.
If you want to read an interesting book on an interesting philosophy, check out Season of Life. It's about Joe Ehrmann, the former Colt. Not your typical football story, but a great book with a great message.
|
|
|
Post by easye17 on May 29, 2007 20:32:38 GMT -6
One other thing after rereading some of the stuff above. Lots of questions of could I have done things differently, spent more time here or there, ...
A great saying my oline coach gave me, and I know he didn't come up with it, but its good. "It's not X's and O's, its Jimmy's and Joe's". You can coach your tail off, but if the other guy's got 5 D-1 kids, you can still lose. Certainly, you can help your kids out and put them in the best position possible, but sometimes, "its not X's and O's" but their Jimmy's and Joe's.
|
|
|
Post by touchdowng on May 29, 2007 22:23:58 GMT -6
Coaching has to be a passion but if you can't be passionate about your own family, the football can be a very hollow existence if you aren't matching the passion on both ends of the spectrum. There are times when FB requires our full attention but there has to be times that football can just wait for another day. This doesn't happen often if you are a HC but it makes the next day that much more fresh. At least, do something that would let your family (wife, kids) know that they are important. I know of some coaches who make their family part of the the program. Howabout disconnecting and just being there for the family? It's all about family balance and still bringing a real passion to the game. It's a tough existence and it takes tough people to do it right. But it can be done. I'm outta here..... my wife is screaming at me to go help my daughter with her homework
|
|
|
Post by brophy on May 30, 2007 14:32:03 GMT -6
Just a little bit of perspective here
If you had a small business of your own.......
Would you feel content with just working 8 hour days?
Why not?
Is it because you know you would be out of business if you didn't work as hard as possible to keep striving to get better every minute of every day? How is this unlike the football coaching profession?
The only way to decrease the hours spent "on the job" is to 1) have a plan 2) stick to it 3) surround yourself with COMPETENT HELP
end of lesson.
|
|
|
Post by easye17 on May 30, 2007 16:03:41 GMT -6
Coachjerk, you must have misread what I wrote. By no means am I saying that coaching doesn't matter, for crying out loud look at the website we're on and look at what we're talking about. If it didn't matter, I'd be doing something else. All I'm saying is perspective is important. I work my tail off all year round and sacrifice unbelievable amounts of time with my family. But it has to be in perspective.
Hey if you want to work round the clock coaching football, go for it. 24 hrs/day - fine with me and God bless you. No skin off my back.
By the way, congrats on the year. Hopefully we all can have those years where we beat the teams with more talent because of our discipline, work ethic, etc. Those are the wins that are most fulfilling.
|
|
|
Post by airman on May 30, 2007 17:43:50 GMT -6
what people also do not know is gruden actually is one of few people who doesnot need to sleep more then 4 hrs a night. he says it runs in his family.
i will tell you I believe in long practices. i want to cover every things. however, being in wisconsin where there is very limited contact in the summer and there is no spring ball on has to do what they have to do in the fall.
I believe in short practices in training camp but 5 of them at 90 minutes a session. (run o, run d, pass o, pass d, speical teams. )
during the seaon practices are 3hr 15 minutes. I am a strong believe in specail teams and committ a hr per practice to them.
I do agree with the playbook thing. the nfl tries to run a ton of plays and a ton of formations. I thinjk the nfl is also about the matchup. I am really not a huge matchup guy. I take the john wooden philosophy, worry about what you do and perfect what you do, instead of worring about the opponent.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on May 30, 2007 18:10:38 GMT -6
I'm the same way. I don't need any more than 10 hours of sleep a night.
|
|