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Post by pantherpride91 on Nov 20, 2007 7:58:57 GMT -6
I was wondering how many of you guys use a lot of window dressing when it comes to your offense. Alot of motion and formation shifting. I have come to the understanding that with most high school kids if you make them think alot in a short period of time than you can gain an advantage on them.
I know most people use motioning to gain a numbers advantage on a defense. But can it also be used when you are outmanned and simply want to "out think" the other guys? Is formation shifting really all that helpful or is it more trouble than is worth?
Also, how do you put in your motion in the play call? I know some R&S plays imply motion with the playcall. Do most others just tag your stuff in after the formation is given.
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wccoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 159
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Post by wccoach on Nov 20, 2007 8:14:11 GMT -6
If the opponents defense adjusts to strength of formation then shifting can have some effect. But, if they just play a field side/boundary side type of defense then the shifting should have a minimal effect. Without a very specific reason for shifting, I find it just tires out your players.
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 20, 2007 8:29:42 GMT -6
If we want a motion we call it after the formation when the play is brought in.
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Post by justwingit on Nov 20, 2007 8:47:10 GMT -6
We use it quite a bit --- tends to minimize the defense -- they may be more basic with all the shifts and motion.
We call our motion and let our kids shift on their own.
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Post by airraider on Nov 20, 2007 8:55:30 GMT -6
I went and watched a pretty good Wing-T the other night.. (beat John Curtis a few weeks back).. they were running a no huddle approach and would shift their TE over and move the WB to HB and the HB to WB..
The defense would either not adjust at all.. and they ran Buck Sweep or Toss.. or they would only adjust the end.. (happened most often) and they ran the G..
I personally do not shift as much as I would like.. and usually when I motion its to do something with that guy.. (have to self scout more).. but I do like end over formations a lot!!
I feel that a lot of time teams do not adjust to ANYTHING.. you come out in endover trips.. then motion your backside guy across.. they stay base.. which gives you 5 on 2 sometimes..
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wccoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 159
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Post by wccoach on Nov 20, 2007 8:58:46 GMT -6
The teams in our conference are pretty well coached and shifting or motion is not going to cause them to play any slower. They will just go to base and get after it. They are very comfortable playing thier base defenses, but we will use the shift is for a very specific reason. (like trying to islolate a backup CB that has just come in to replace an injured starting CB)
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Post by pantherpride91 on Nov 20, 2007 9:21:45 GMT -6
I went and watched a pretty good Wing-T the other night.. (beat John Curtis a few weeks back).. they were running a no huddle approach and would shift their TE over and move the WB to HB and the HB to WB.. The defense would either not adjust at all.. and they ran Buck Sweep or Toss.. or they would only adjust the end.. (happened most often) and they ran the G.. I personally do not shift as much as I would like.. and usually when I motion its to do something with that guy.. (have to self scout more).. but I do like end over formations a lot!! I feel that a lot of time teams do not adjust to ANYTHING.. you come out in endover trips.. then motion your backside guy across.. they stay base.. which gives you 5 on 2 sometimes.. What do you mean by endover trips? Are you talking like a trips with your tightend backside then motion the guy into a quads look? Sounds like a great way to gain numbers but just wanted to get the right idea of what it looks like. Do any of your guys run into teams that focus so much on the TE that they are calling strength to TE almost every time.
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Post by airraider on Nov 20, 2007 9:23:51 GMT -6
I went and watched a pretty good Wing-T the other night.. (beat John Curtis a few weeks back).. they were running a no huddle approach and would shift their TE over and move the WB to HB and the HB to WB.. The defense would either not adjust at all.. and they ran Buck Sweep or Toss.. or they would only adjust the end.. (happened most often) and they ran the G.. I personally do not shift as much as I would like.. and usually when I motion its to do something with that guy.. (have to self scout more).. but I do like end over formations a lot!! I feel that a lot of time teams do not adjust to ANYTHING.. you come out in endover trips.. then motion your backside guy across.. they stay base.. which gives you 5 on 2 sometimes.. What do you mean by endover trips? Are you talking like a trips with your tightend backside then motion the guy into a quads look? Sounds like a great way to gain numbers but just wanted to get the right idea of what it looks like. Do any of your guys run into teams that focus so much on the TE that they are calling strength to TE almost every time. Yes.. say you have trips to one side.. well move your backside end over.. whether its a TE or a SE.. move him over to give you a quads look.. now either hand off to your back.. or motion your backside slot over if in empty.. either run jet with him.. or just send him over and run QB sweep.. the numbers are in your favor.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 20, 2007 12:41:29 GMT -6
I was wondering how many of you guys use a lot of window dressing when it comes to your offense. Alot of motion and formation shifting. Coach: Here is a very offense-specific answer from my Wild Bunch playbook: MOTION
The Wild Bunch allows multiple levels of deception. One of the most useful is to simulate passing by sending a receiver wide in motion (notably Z across the formation to the Spread side, as with our 60 (Run and Shoot) series), then snapping the ball and handing to the Fullback up the middle.
The easiest way to use this powerful tool is to add a two-digit motion indicator to the play number. For example, “60-35” would indicate that 35 Quick Trap was to be run with “60 series” motion; that is, by sending Z in motion toward X on “Ready”.
The alternative would be to call “70-35”, which would send H in motion to form the Bunch with Y and Z.
Adding this simple two-digit number to certain play calls will allow you to increase your deception at absolutely no extra teaching cost to your players. SHIFTS
The only shift I sometimes use is the “Scatter” concept. I can call “Scatter to Spread Left” in the huddle, and X, Y, Z and H will line up in any legal formation they feel like. On a command from the QB, they will then shift to the formation called in the huddle.
This is an easy way to confuse defenses with, again, no extra teaching involved for the offense.I hope that helps explain why I don't regard motion as "window dressing." Of course, the Wild Bunch is based on motioning a back across the formation, either to initiate a Fly Sweep series play, or else to create Run and Shoot trips to one side of the formation or a Bunch to the other side: savefile.com/files/19173
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 20, 2007 12:58:07 GMT -6
pantherpride - have you seen St. X play? Coach: They are X - resistance is futile. ;D ;D
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Post by spartancoach on Nov 20, 2007 14:03:25 GMT -6
Most defenses we see align in a 1 and 5 to open side, and a 3 and 9 to TE. By jumping (or "trading") the TE, we found that many teams will walk the new TE side DE out to a 9 and the new open side TE into a 5 giving us:
Pre-shift
.....Y......T......G......C......G......T ..e................t...............t..........e
Post- shift
............T......G......C......G......T......Y ..........e.......t...............t..................e
Nice lane to attack with a 1 and 9.
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Post by dubber on Nov 20, 2007 23:07:42 GMT -6
I think it is important in recognizing coverages too (run and shoot idea here)
I think it is a good way to make defenses vanilla, and like Brophy said it puts hesitation in the defense's mind
I understand Steve's point too (the Colts, when healthy, rarely use motion, and utilize like 3 formations 80% of the time)---and yes, it can look bad, particularly when you have 15 different plays that get blocked differently out each formation
In a perfect world, I'd run IZ and stretch, and use multiple shifts and formations and motions...............relying on my player's abilty to block and read
Another thing Ted has in his WB manuel is the "redefinition of the number 1 rec." (my term, his concept) That is a biotch to mess with in terms of adjustment.
X------------O-O-X-O-O-Y ------Z-----------Q--------H
-------------------T
If you send z in motion across the formation, you stretch the defense (including corner and force player) out with him, creating voids for Y and H, AND (as ted mentioned) holes for the running game
One last thing----look at the amount of time it takes to teach the Z rec. to go into motion across the formation------very minimal
Assuming it is the first time a defense has seen this type of "redefine of number 1", how much time do you think they'll need to combat it?--------more substantial, IMO
And that takes less time away from preparing to actually stop IZ and Stretch
which is a BIG "why" behind the "what" of multiple shifts, motions, and "window dressing"
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Post by CVBears on Nov 20, 2007 23:22:46 GMT -6
we motion all the time. all of our motions start with the first letter of the alpha of the player we want in motion (Z= zip, zoom; R = rex, roy). The one exception would be for jet and then we tag the guy we want running jet.
right help 26 power (formation, motion, play)
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Post by djwesp on Nov 20, 2007 23:26:49 GMT -6
Last year we played a team twice.
1. The first time, we stayed in our traditional wishbone offense, ran veer right at them (yes they gave us our iv the whole night) but we just got trashed because we were so outmanned.
2. Played them again 3rd round of the playoffs. This time, we ran a lot of I (3 wide), some wishbone (we motioned the rbs and fb), and we moved around a lot. They just couldn't do anything about it. We motioned our fb out the shoulder of the te and ran a toss play all night downblocking and they just couldn't adjust. Add on the fact we ran some veer with just our rbs and they were clueless.
Seems like it is a good tool to use when needed. The teams that do this a lot or all season seem to spend a lot of time doing stuff without seeing a lot of results and it seems the earlier in teh season you do this the less effective it is.
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Post by deaux68 on Nov 20, 2007 23:28:04 GMT -6
If you really wanna screw with some people. We motion two people at one time.
Illegal I know. Basically it's a shift, because we are letting them get set and waiting for one second.
It is pretty interesting to line up in doubles with a TE, motion the Z across, tap the TE on the butt and end up in Trips over. Causes quite a few problems for some people.
I bet I've heard 20 announcers on TV talk about why there isn't a flag, that's illegal, etc.
We normally give the heads up to the stripes before the game too.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 20, 2007 23:32:02 GMT -6
We didn't do enough with motioning this year...would have helped us tremendously.
Played a Wing-T team earlier in the season that would start in a Slot Right Formation:
OOOXOO--------------------O ------Q-----O -O---O
and then shift the TE to the slot side right before the snap.
OOXOOO------------------------O ----Q------O -O-O
So, what we basically were looking at was an unbalanced line. We couldn't get the kids to adjust to it until halftime and by then, they were up on us 19-14.
So...a little bit of "window dressing" can go a long way!
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Post by theprez98 on Nov 20, 2007 23:35:40 GMT -6
This is what I wrote about motion and shifting in "my" playbook: To many coaches, motion and especially shifting may seem to be an unnecessary complication to an offense. Truth be told, time spent on learning various motions and shifts is time not spent on executing plays. However, when a series of ideas such as motions and shifts have the potential to contribute so heavily to an offensive philosophy, I think it's extremely important to allow the time to learn those ideas. There are a whole host of reasons to include motion and shifting in your overall offensive game plan:
* Create personnel mismatches * Force the defense into a certain type of coverage * Placing your offensive personnel into the best position to do their job * Confuse defensive responsibilities and create coverage problems * Disguise the play by breaking a formation tendency; in other words, giving the same play a new concept or look, which in turn gives the defense less time to adjust and react * Gain an additional blocker at the point of attack * Changing the strength of the formation
The idea of course is do not use motion or shifting just for the sake of doing it. Have a good and valid reason to do it!
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 21, 2007 4:38:50 GMT -6
which is a BIG "why" behind the "what" of multiple shifts, motions, and "window dressing" Dude -- you, like, TOTALLY get it! ;D ;D
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Post by gmccown on Nov 21, 2007 9:23:24 GMT -6
I've always used keywords built into the play call for motion. Our play call serries is..
"start formation" to "end formation" - "motion tag" - "play call" - "snap count"
As an example it might be
Stack to Tight- Ripper- 47 Brown - First Hut
I will say that the most successfull teams I've coached (if you don't know I'm a DW'er) we didn't motion much, but we shifted 30-40% of the time.
It's also important to mention that I don't believe in shifting just for fun. I haven't used a lot of shifts in a given week...mabey 2-3 in a particular gameplan. They are always aimed at creating a desired adjustment in the defense or taking advantage of a refusal to adjust.
For me it depends largely on the capability of your kids to stay disciplined.
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Post by dubber on Nov 21, 2007 11:59:49 GMT -6
which is a BIG "why" behind the "what" of multiple shifts, motions, and "window dressing" Dude -- you, like, TOTALLY get it! ;D ;D you mean I totally stole it...........from spreadattack, you, rip60zg0, huey, etc.
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Post by brophy on Nov 24, 2007 19:24:23 GMT -6
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Post by brophy on Nov 24, 2007 20:34:58 GMT -6
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Post by theprez98 on Nov 24, 2007 20:49:07 GMT -6
if ANYONE is interested..... AUBURN is giving a real great example of shifting and using bunch (then motion) on creating opportunities in the run-game tonight versus Alabama.... Thanks for the clips!
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Post by brophy on Nov 26, 2007 14:23:50 GMT -6
The bunch, ZIP motion - counter Auburn ran all night on 'Bama....I counted at least 4 different occassions in the red-zone.
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stx
Freshmen Member
Posts: 53
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Post by stx on Nov 29, 2007 1:15:15 GMT -6
pantherpride - have you seen St. X play? They don't adjust to anything. They line up in that 335 and it's 3, 3 and 5. Motion, shift, whatever you want to do, they are going to be standing there waiting on you to snap it with 3 down linemen, 3 linebackers and 5 in the secondary. They didn't even adjust to Centerville's unbalanced. That caught up with X last year against Colerain...things have changed. A lot of adjustments are made, but they are hidden and are double secretive
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stx
Freshmen Member
Posts: 53
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Post by stx on Nov 29, 2007 1:36:04 GMT -6
panthrpride...
I think motioning/shifting against teams that do NOT run a whole bunch of man is pretty much worthless...no need for it.
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Post by lochness on Nov 29, 2007 7:26:54 GMT -6
We use a lot of shifting and motion in games where we feel it will give us a sound and measurable advantage. We hardly ever shift or motion just for show, although we will usually do it once or twice each game EARLY to see if the defense reacts in a way we did not expect.
We will most often design a specific shift for an opponent's defense that we know we can get a fundamental advantage on.
Our last game of the regular season this year, we played a 4-3 defensive team that had some pretty good athletes. They ran base 4-3 (3 tech, 1 tech, and 3 ILB's) and that's it. Their Sam was a pretty good player. We traded our TE on about 70% of our plays. The defense never adjusted, not even after halftime. That meant we had a 1 Technique, a head-up DE, and the weaker Will LB on our strong side. We had (I kid you not) 3 backs go over 100 yards each in rushing that night.
The great thing is, we may play very balanced and straight-up defenses some weeks, and we will hardly shift or motion them EVER. BUT, everyone knows we do it, so they have to waste practice time showing it and they have to try to study it to see if we have tendancies, etc.
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Post by pantherpride91 on Nov 29, 2007 7:31:13 GMT -6
stx - good luck saturday. I for one will be in attendance. They must be super duper double secretive... when ville was balanced...X went across with 5,0,5 and stacked backers when ville went unbalanced...X went across with 5,0,5 and stacked backers when X played DeMatha...X went across 5,0,5 and stacked backers I also saw the X scrimmage against Hamilton and the SBV....505 stacked.... I'd be willing to bet on Saturday when Mentor shows up, X will go 5,0,5 with stacked backers...and win by 20. That's good though, do what you do. That is what I was thinking.....must be Area 51 type of top secret stuff... But when you have the top defense in the state it is all good...good luck this weekend X
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Post by pantherpride91 on Nov 29, 2007 7:34:20 GMT -6
panthrpride... I think motioning/shifting against teams that do NOT run a whole bunch of man is pretty much worthless...no need for it. Do you guys face any teams that do a lot of formation shifting? Line up in one formation and end up in a completely different or since you stay in the 3-3-5 does that not effect you very much? I know Colerain did some motion but it was pretty much 100% that they were running the option to that side.
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stx
Freshmen Member
Posts: 53
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Post by stx on Nov 29, 2007 8:53:59 GMT -6
panthrpride... I think motioning/shifting against teams that do NOT run a whole bunch of man is pretty much worthless...no need for it. Do you guys face any teams that do a lot of formation shifting? Line up in one formation and end up in a completely different or since you stay in the 3-3-5 does that not effect you very much? I know Colerain did some motion but it was pretty much 100% that they were running the option to that side. If I'm not mistaken, Elder did some of that... Oh yea, to dcOHio...5,0,5...nah...3,3,5. You should look into those DVDs Specht, you'd learn alot. There is no reason to do all that shifting. Although, sometimes when a team runs an offense that is able to exploit the small weaknesses in that defense, X will use a 3-2-6 look. In the past, they bumped into a 4-2-5. TO answer your question, if a team formation shifts, only three players usually have to make an adjustment based on a strength difference unless strength is determined by the field or boundary side, then maybe only one will move over.
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