neil
Sophomore Member
Posts: 218
|
Post by neil on Nov 26, 2007 12:41:46 GMT -6
Do ya'll remember when someone on the site posted this very angry rant dismissing kick return guys.
This guy is unbelievable!
NFL network put up the records yesterday with Brian Mitchell with 13 returns as the career record and he did that in like 300 games.
Hester hasn't played two full season, right?
|
|
|
|
Post by eickst on Nov 26, 2007 12:45:05 GMT -6
Maybe if NFL teams put their better players on ST instead of perennial backups they would be better.
But then you're taking reps away from guys who play on O and D instead of guys who will normally never see the field.
|
|
|
|
Post by ajreaper on Nov 26, 2007 12:49:55 GMT -6
A good/great return man is absolutely a game changer. Being a great runningback, reciever or DB does not mean you'll be a great even good kick returner- it's a gift/skill that few posses. In some cases that return guy stays on the roster because he's great at what he does- like a great long snapper.
|
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Nov 26, 2007 13:11:20 GMT -6
Devin Hester is a good example of how special teams can make / break a game.
That a 20 or 30 yard return can be just as good as two first-down conversions. The inept Chicago offense relies on field position and ball-placement from their ST units to give them any shot at scoring.
The "No Punting" thread or the "Offense-First" mentality can lead to cutting off your nose to spite your face in terms of waging a battle for field position within the course of a game.
Trade real estate for time.........a tactic used by Russia to hold off the Nazis.......
punt the ball, delay the advance of your opponent, while you adjust your offensive attack the next time around (and delay being put behind the 8-ball of allowing a quick score by your opponent with great field position).
|
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Nov 26, 2007 13:22:14 GMT -6
Do ya'll remember when someone on the site posted this very angry rant dismissing kick return guys. This guy is unbelievable! NFL network put up the records yesterday with Brian Mitchell with 13 returns as the career record and he did that in like 300 games. Hester hasn't played two full season, right? C'mon coach, 10 other players on the field. Do you think this player, in the history of the NFL, is just light years ahead of every return man that has ever played because of his success so far? I'd be willing to bet you put another good return man in their prime, like Mitchell or Deion Sanders, on the Bears now, and he'd put up awesome #s too. |
|
|
|
Post by theprez98 on Nov 26, 2007 13:57:15 GMT -6
C'mon coach, 10 other players on the field. Do you think this player, in the history of the NFL, is just light years ahead of every return man that has ever played because of his success so far? I'd be willing to bet you put another good return man in their prime, like Mitchell or Deion Sanders, on the Bears now, and he'd put up awesome #s too. Your argument is really no different. You're saying that the 10 other players are light years ahead of every return team that has ever played. |
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Nov 26, 2007 14:46:19 GMT -6
C'mon coach, 10 other players on the field. Do you think this player, in the history of the NFL, is just light years ahead of every return man that has ever played because of his success so far? I'd be willing to bet you put another good return man in their prime, like Mitchell or Deion Sanders, on the Bears now, and he'd put up awesome #s too. Your argument is really no different. You're saying that the 10 other players are light years ahead of every return team that has ever played. It's an aligning of the stars Good return man Good players on special teams Good coaching Luck |
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Nov 26, 2007 14:50:50 GMT -6
LaDanian Tomlinson is only good because people block for him..........
|
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Nov 26, 2007 15:00:47 GMT -6
LaDanian Tomlinson is only good because people block for him.......... Tomlinson isn't any better or worse then the other good backs of our time. Just like Devin Hester isn't any better or worse then the other good return men of our time. |
|
|
|
Post by briangilbert on Nov 26, 2007 15:19:51 GMT -6
Did anyone see Hester in college? It wasn't much different! If anything I would think it's harder today to score on returns because of how much time NFL teams and coaches spend on game planning. The league is more advanced scheme wise then it has ever been.
For starters,
did anyone see when the Lions played the Bears @ Soldier Field a couple of weeks ago? They employed a different look every time and were able to contain Hester.
I'm biast because I'm a Bears fan, but we are watching greatness. He REALLY IS that good, everyone acts like the personnel on special teams today is that much worse then it was 10-15 years ago. And my question would be how? Players are bigger, faster, and stronger then ever!
|
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Nov 26, 2007 18:26:04 GMT -6
Maybe if NFL teams put their better players on ST instead of perennial backups they would be better. But then you're taking reps away from guys who play on O and D instead of guys who will normally never see the field. I agree and disagree with this. Yes you don't see the starting cornerback on special teams, but NFL rosters are very small all things considered (53 men), and while it isn't the #1 at every position it is very often the #2 and many of the players who must play quite a bit otherwise. And for the rest of them, their entire existence in the NFL depends on them being good at special teams. You gave up a score? You're on the street tomorrow. That's some pretty strong motivation. And Hester is special. He's uniquely gifted at returns. Speed, elusiveness, and the ability to read his blocks and get into the open field. He clearly has good blocking and good coaching. Maybe if you stuck some backup WR for some other team back there he'd run some back, but I find it hard to believe that he'd be as productive as Hester. |
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Nov 26, 2007 21:33:24 GMT -6
The truly great ones make it look like it is easy and that anyone can do it.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildcat on Nov 27, 2007 4:09:33 GMT -6
Devin Hester is special...name one other player in the NFL today who will make you completely stop what you are doing and watch whenever he is on the field. There are not many...I would go as far to say that he is currently the single most exciting athlete in any sport, period.
|
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Nov 27, 2007 4:38:11 GMT -6
Devin Hester is special...[glow=red,2,300]name one other player in the NFL today who will make you completely stop what you are doing and watch whenever he is on the field. [/glow] There are not many...I would go as far to say that he is currently the single most exciting athlete in any sport, period. Tom Brady in a 2-minute drill, that's about it. Hester is special, and the Bears know it, which is why they put other good guys out there on special teams around him to help take advantage. He is good b/c of the combination of his skills and the other 10 guys who take the field with him. |
|
tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
|
Post by tedseay on Nov 27, 2007 7:57:18 GMT -6
The "No Punting" thread or the "Offense-First" mentality can lead to cutting off your nose to spite your face in terms of waging a battle for field position within the course of a game. The academic paper that started the whole (misnamed) "No Punting" discussion examines why NFL coaches repeatedly make decisions which are not in their best interests in terms of maximizing their chances for winning. In case after first-quarter case (to minimize the importance of end-of-half and end-of-game considerations), the author shows how (for example) coaches will send out the field goal unit on 4th and goal from the 2, even though, if they don't score, their defense will have absolutely sensational field position. The point is that field position has implications for points scored, and that coaches will tend almost universally to kick the ball (punt or field goal attempt) even when the expected points gained/lost by kicking are worse for the coaches in question than going for a first down. In other words, their risk aversion is fundamentally irrational, unlike the kind of field position theory you're talking about. Trade real estate for time.........a tactic used by Russia to hold off the Nazis....... ...as was sacrificing hundreds of thousands of Red Army soldiers to slow down the Nazi juggernaut...may need to fine-tune that analogy...  |
|
|
|
Post by buchananm on Nov 28, 2007 14:57:39 GMT -6
It's a shame to see his talent reserved just for special teams. I know the Bears work him in a couple of plays on offense, but if he's truly a gamebreaker, get him the ball more.
|
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Nov 28, 2007 15:04:38 GMT -6
It's a shame to see his talent reserved just for special teams. I know the Bears work him in a couple of plays on offense, but if he's truly a gamebreaker, get him the ball more. everyone says that, but coaches at Miami & the Bears say he's dumber than a bag of hammers. I think we can all relate to "that kid". All the athletic talent in the world, but you struggle to find ways for that kid to be competent in a game situation (bullet-proof) |
|
|
|
Post by jraybern on Nov 28, 2007 15:36:16 GMT -6
I watched the second half of the Bears/Broncos game. Couldn't believe the Broncos lost that game. One could argue Hester is the reason for the Bears victory. I just want to touch on one point about getting the ball to Hester more. I do think the Bears are TRYING but he really doesn't fit other than on returns. I believe on the punt late where the Broncos kicked it high and it hit Hester in the leg and he jumped on it, they put him in and tried to throw a screen to him on first down. The snap was bad and threw it off a little, but he would have gone nowhere anyways. Part of that is due to the fact that, well lets face it, the Bears' offense sucks. But I think also, he may just not be a good enough receiver to go down the field and threaten that way. I remember teams trying to use Deon Sanders at WR. Yeah, he caught a ball or two, but he changed games on defense and on KICK RETURNS, not on offense. He's not the only kick returner in the league that is not good enough to be a full time receiver or RB. Bill Bates made the Pro Bowl year in and year out for the Cowboys on special teams - and he was great at that. He played VERY RARELY on defense though at LB. He was a special teams standout who wasn't good enough to play any other position full time. My point is, I think Hester is playing the poistion he is best suited for and the Bears have gotten him the ball when they needed to.
|
|
|
|
Post by cmow5 on Nov 28, 2007 16:04:40 GMT -6
while one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.
-Devin Hester
I love this phrase, but I find it hard to believe it came from Hester.
Does any one know if he said this or did he get it from someone else?
By the way I am not a bears fan and I don't like the Hurricanes, but he is fun to watch
|
|
|
|
Post by jraybern on Nov 28, 2007 17:28:25 GMT -6
Here is the only TD reception I could find for Devin Hester on YouTube. This is a great catch though I do think he is pretty awesome though!  |
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Nov 30, 2008 11:43:44 GMT -6
One year later...Hester is averaging 6.3 yards per punt return, and 22 yards per kick return.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Nov 30, 2008 12:07:50 GMT -6
Hester is slowed by all the BANK he has to carry |
|
|
|
Post by Yash on Nov 30, 2008 12:08:44 GMT -6
Even with those numbers I bet people are still gameplanning around him. I bet there isn't a special teams coach in the league who says, well hes only getting 6 yards a return, lets just kick it right to him.
I think though, that good special teams go in streaks. Good return units that is. Its like someone posted above, an alignment of the stars. Good returners, paired with good coaching and good blocking. The great ones will make something happen with none of the above, but its a lot harder in the NFL than it is at a high school level or college level. There isn't a huge talent gap in the NFL where as you can find one in high school and college.
|
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Nov 30, 2008 13:30:54 GMT -6
Your argument is really no different. You're saying that the 10 other players are light years ahead of every return team that has ever played. It's an aligning of the stars Good return man Good players on special teams Good coaching Luck Luck? You think that Hester's good because of luck? The kid's a special talent. Now, I've seen Gale Sayers (along with a lot of other great returners) return kicks so I'm not saying that Hester is the best ever. I'm also not a Bears fan. I am saying that consistently great returns happen because the returner has special talent. |
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Nov 30, 2008 15:49:36 GMT -6
phantom---I don't think he is saying it is purely LUCK, but the fact that his performance this year is DRASTICALLY lessened...does mean there are some other elements involved, and not just Hester...
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Nov 30, 2008 19:41:54 GMT -6
Update to the above..apparently Hester actually was beat out of K.O return duties at some point this season.....
|
|
|
|
Post by olinecoach61 on Dec 1, 2008 10:22:12 GMT -6
I could easily name 25 other NFL players I would rather have on my team. Just because someone is exciting 3 plays a game does not make him the best player on the field.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachtut on Dec 2, 2008 8:19:07 GMT -6
Hester may be the best in the league right now. He is a special talent and although it takes the rest of the special teams guys doing their jobs to spring him for big returns he has a special skill set that allows him to do this more often than other guys.
His speed, acceleration and vision are very, very good.
|
|
