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Post by coltscoach on Aug 1, 2005 7:31:20 GMT -6
Thurman makes a good point on the spreading the field. The only thing I disagree with is to slide those splits down. Texas Tech doesnt and neither do we. We invite the blitz. When a team is Blitzing us we know they are almost in give up mode. They cant play us head up so they are gambleing and when a team gambles it means that they are taking a chance to make something happen. We invite the blitz to exploit it. We want to catch teams in blitzes and burn them quick.
Here is the thought.. You sack us twice for 6 yards, we catch you once for 60 yards... We will take that advantage all day. We are not a move the chains down the field and kick field goals type of program. We are score in three plays or get off the field. We obviously think we can score on any down and distance. We never get into short yardage becuase we dont have short yardage. The only short yardage we have is inside the 20 and that is becuase we cant stretch the field anymore.
Our running plays are set to go 60, are pass plays are set to go 60. We want everyone to be aware that at anytime you can hear the crowd scream and the band start playing. daaa da daa dumm.
Now against a mind set and a team that is used to practicing 3 yards and a cloud of dust they get excited about a loss of 12 or a sack or two or a couple of three and outs. We dont we actually in close games want the early momentum on your sidelines. We are what boxers call mid to late round knock out artist. We lul you to sleep let you get confident and bam in the 3rd round we come out countering and power punching.
I am unorthodox, against the norm and plum unpredicatable.
6 or 6 .. 6 yards or 6 points what would you rather have on any given play. some coaches want 6 yards becuase they have no confidence in their defense ours wants the points and if they score we are tied.. score again.
Now for 40 years this area was Wing-t and power I football. Dont get me wrong it was good football but we would get 1 D1 athelete every two or three years out of here. This area was still the top in the state but it wasnt producing those big time names. Bam all of a sudden someone changed and now not only do we have many many D1 prospects but we also have 2 in the NFL from an area that is smaller than most. Would of had three but one was killed in a car wreck.
I didnt like the spread when it first was introduced to me and I ran it as a favor to the 8th grade coach. Went undefeated with his help understanding the formations and how to use them. We saw everything from all out blitzes to no body rushing.
Once you make a team do something they are uncomfortbal doing you have the advantage .. that is what the spread does to teams. Makes them itchy..
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Post by tog on Aug 1, 2005 7:37:05 GMT -6
the problem with the spread versus those "three yards and a cloud of dust" mindset teams is that they have a tendency to eat a whole quarter of clock at times, and if you go 3 and out, then you have a hard time getting in rythym
and your defense ends up on the field the whole night, making those 3 yards turn into 30 later in the game
that is why we try to use as much power/misdirection within our spread stuff to make us more of a chain mover style offense that has a chance to break some big plays as well,
at least that is the theory
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Post by coltscoach on Aug 1, 2005 7:46:29 GMT -6
Yeah seen that.. The teams that try that are like those that try to run two different offenses and neither one was very good. My old HS coach said son if your going to date a girl and she aint the prom queen it really dont matter how ugly she is becuase she still ugly...then he would pause and say.. its much easier to date on thats really ugly and knows it than one that is ugly and thinks she is pretty.
Damn never knew what he was talking about but then figured it out once I tried throwing allot out of the wing t. Its a running offese(ugly) but you get people in the mindset of throwing it(pretty) and you have a hard time of doing both.
It was a hard agnology for me but he knew deep inside that I was going to coach .. He actually told my dad my sr year that I was going to coach somewere .. If I would have went to college that is what I would have done. Damn Marine recruiter.
We use that 3 yard and a cloud of dust threory and throw it out the window. we try ot score on everyplay. Now that doesnt mean we are throwing 30 yard bombs (were little) it just means we are dumping it off in the flats and blocking it to go the distance. We still have our 8-10 play drives but with the no huddle we dont burn much clock.
If a team does score on a long drive.. and lets say they do it twice. Thats a lot of time for them to be on the field they are ahead by 2 TD.. we can score 2 TD in no time so its not like we have to change our game plan, Now if they are behind by 2 TD they have to change and once we make them change we are in feast mode.
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Post by tog on Aug 1, 2005 7:51:00 GMT -6
we like to think of ours as 10 yards and a cloud of dust
we think the best thing about how our spread stuff works is that it uses the qb as an actual player, that allows us to play with all 11 on offense, this gets us some situations where we have a numbers advantage and in theory, if every gets their blocks, then it is a touchdown
having vastly underathletic personell makes this a necessity, and we do very well with it
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Post by tog on Aug 1, 2005 7:52:28 GMT -6
the cool thing about how we do it, is that we have the threat of both
balance is the key for us
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Post by falcon66 on Aug 5, 2005 22:04:07 GMT -6
another take is I have had years where we did not have the skill for the spread and we would have been close to 0fer(1a and 2a). I have also had the personell for the spread but ran the wing-t and was fortunate to go 10-0 rushing for about 3000 and throwing for 900. My qb could have thrown for about 2000 in the spread because he had talent. He did lead the SA area in completion percentage at 64% for most of the year and threw 14 td's.
I am not opposed to the spread but look at Dave Campbells and see how many 1-9, and 2-8 teams had a 1000 yard passer. There are quite a few. It is still important to be able to throw it, but like they say "run to win, throw to score"
I believe it is all good, even the slot-t which we run. Nothing better than 6 or 7 minute drive. No matter what offense in h,s you have to be able to run the football. Just my opinion
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FF/Coach
Sophomore Member
If your heart is in it, you can do it!!!
Posts: 134
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Post by FF/Coach on Aug 7, 2005 15:37:18 GMT -6
We are a spread team also, and we strive for the balanced attack.
Our theory is spread em out, so we can run the ball, to set up the pass, so we can run the ball.
We have put up over 2500 yds rushing per season since we went spread (Northwestern, and Southern Illinois concept) offense 4 years ago.
As TOG said we use our QB as a player. He is part of the run package (1600 + last year), he is part of the run blocking scheme, and he throws the ball well (put up almost 2000 yds last year). It's not because our QB is just a complete stud either, he's not, he's just a solid QB of average skill, but the spread concept allows him to get 5-10 yds over and over, with his arm or his legs.
We to like the ability to (and we believe that we can) score on any play. We too have broken several 60 yd + TDs, both running and passing. At the same time we can hold the ball and chew up an entire quarter, as we drive down the field with our, 4yds and a cloud of dust, run game out of the spread. Our splits are tight (about 18 inches) and we run, Zone, lead ISO with the TB blocking for the QB, counter and counter trap, speed option, and draw with the QB or TB.
We want to take the D out of their comfort zone and make them try to adjust to what we are doing. Our play book isn't gigantic by any means, but we sat down as a staff and brainstormed as to what are they going to do if we do this, what plays will work when they do, and it's all built off of the spread.
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Post by tog on Aug 7, 2005 16:11:45 GMT -6
why so tight on the splits 175?
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FF/Coach
Sophomore Member
If your heart is in it, you can do it!!!
Posts: 134
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Post by FF/Coach on Aug 7, 2005 21:51:22 GMT -6
Well our HC is the OL guy, was an OL in HS and College, his philosophy is the tighter splits makes it easier for the OL to combo on our zone, and also makes it easier to pick up any blitzes.
The tight splits also makes our LOS OT to OT narrower which creates better angles off tackle, as we are only 4yds deep in our gun, a wider OL OT to OT flattens out our angle of attack more than we would like.
We started this looking to get the ball to and through the LOS quicker. We were getting good initial line surge because of our quickness, but in the I it seemed LBers had time to scrape over the top and make the play for minimal gains. When we went to the "Short Gun" and narrow splits it seemed to give us the 1/2 step or so that we were looking for.
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FF/Coach
Sophomore Member
If your heart is in it, you can do it!!!
Posts: 134
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Post by FF/Coach on Aug 7, 2005 22:15:21 GMT -6
There again our HC has the OL, and I'm not totally sure why he teaches what he does but our Vertical splits are very shallow. He wants the G's toes at the C's instep, an the T's toes at the G's instep. This alignment doesn't change unless he sees something he wants to game plan for.
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FF/Coach
Sophomore Member
If your heart is in it, you can do it!!!
Posts: 134
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Post by FF/Coach on Aug 8, 2005 8:07:03 GMT -6
No bucket steps!
He teaches a Zone step as -
Playside foot 6 inch (kill the bug) reach step,
At the Defenders outside shoulder if covered by outside shade.
Punch down hard while stepping into space looking for fill if covered by inside shade.
Step into space looking to overtake and reach any punched down DL or for fill if uncovered.
I believe he teaches that if you have not engaged your reach by your 2nd step you turn it into a kick-out.
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Post by Coach Huey on Aug 17, 2005 5:41:13 GMT -6
something to ponder regarding any type of so-called "passing offense". what makes it go is the offense's ability to run the ball on 2nd and long. If the offensive play-caller has confidence in his 2nd & long run game to get him back to 3rd & medium or short then that offense will have the freedom to throw on first down much more often. if a team is poor on 2nd & long run wise, then the play-caller will be reluctant to throw on first down for fear of winding up in 2nd long. now, the offense has become predictable. likewise, if the offense can't do much run wise on 2nd & long or the playcaller lacks confidence in run plays - then an incomplete first down pass will be followed by a second down pass. again...making the offense predictable.
so...to all spread guys or pass guys.......shore up the 2nd & long run game. have confidence that you can get into 3rd & medium by calling a run play on 2nd & long. now -- -- -- the defense must defend your ENTIRE offense on BOTH 1st & 10 AND 2nd & long (uh, you can still pass, of course). now, that makes the spread go.......the defense saying "what are they gonna' do this time?"
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Post by groundchuck on Aug 17, 2005 7:47:26 GMT -6
Balance is key. If you run the wing-t or I option you still need to be efficient throwing the ball. To me it is tougher to defend a team who run a 2-back set with a TE and two WR. If they can really run the ball then they catch you off-guard with 10-15 passes a game that is tough. The other thing that "scares" me about the spread is the 3 and outs. If the other team controls the ball you will not get that many chances. I do agree spread teams are tough to defend IF they have the athletes out there. That speed is space is tough. Like I said in my opening statement THe key is some kind of balance. We are based in the I but run some spread option and quick passing game from the gun when we want to either get you off balance or need to. Given the choice I'll run Iso all day. If it working why stop?
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Post by Coach Huey on Aug 17, 2005 12:36:30 GMT -6
let's put specifics to our statements......
"lot's of 3 & outs with the spread" --- why? what makes spread have MORE 3 & outs than any other type of offense?
"need athletes to run the spread" -- why? space is space right? so....if you don't have athletes that "non-athlete" functions better in a closed area than he would if he was in space?
"protection is a problem in the spread" -- why? what makes releasing 4 into the pattern from a spread set different than releasing 4 into the pattern from a pro-I set?
"qb has to have a great arm" -- why? does spread equal vertical routes? spread means no short routes (quick game)?
i could go on. my point is not to start an arguement about any particular offense or scheme. i'm trying to ignite us to think more in depth about this topic and give more exact reasons both for and against. i just like to discuss the facts -- the "whys" -- about certain things. i don't see the whole picture behind some of the blanket statements we use without qualifying them with more specific statements. i tend to use generic statements and philosophies but, lately, i'm trying to force myself to ask deeper questions within my own find as to why i believe in certain statements.
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coachkd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 101
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Post by coachkd on Aug 17, 2005 14:43:13 GMT -6
Huey, great stuff I luv it, hope other coaches jump in...
I am sold on the spread regardless of the talent level. Can't do wing t, DW, power I, etc... so I have thought about this quite a bit.
"Lots of 3 and outs with the spread" - I think this goes with the paradigm that the spread is supposed to be a passing offense. The spread can be running oriented or passing oriented. Northwestern was one of the first teams to use 4 wide gun in the late 1990s and they did it so they could get people out of the box and run the ball. Randy Walker realized he couldn't get the huge linemen and studly RB to compete like he wanted to in the Big 10 so he spread out the D so he could run! If you look at the stats Northwestern is one of the top rushing teams in the Big 10 the last 5 or 6 years. Lots of 3 and outs due to 3 incompletes just means that spread coach is not effective with the spread pass and he needs to balance it out more.
"Need athletes to run the spread" - I do believe you can teach average athletes proper route running techniques that can give you an edge. Lets be real, if the other team out athletes you then you are going to get beat no matter what offense you run, regarless of technique that it taught! And on the flip side if you have studs it doesnt matter what scheme you run and you will still probably win, spread pass or not!
"Protection is a problem" - Its only a problem if you let it be a problem. I am convinced that you can't design a pass pro to pick up every conceivable stunt, but you can scheme for 95% of them. This is the achilles heal of the spread is not being able to handle the extra pass rusher. Priority needs to be placed on this in practice. If they bring 7 and you are blocking with 6 what are you going to do? This scenario needs to be rehearsed with your key players over and over again. There are ways to effectively manage this.
"QB has to have a great arm" - This obviously helps if you are a spread passing team, not so if you are a spread running team. I am more of the belief that you can coach a kid with an "average" arm proper timing a mechanics and be successful. I have a kid like that right now, he knows where he needs to throw the ball and when, and when he executes this properly the timing overcomes his lack of arm. I rate "football intelligence" over passing skills any day. I would rather take a kid with an "average arm" who is intelligent over a kid who has a great arm but can't learn the difference between middle open and middle closed.
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Post by groundchuck on Aug 18, 2005 21:35:16 GMT -6
I should say this: We run the spread as part of our offense. I would say we are multiple I and gun spread. If given the horses up front I would prefer to pound the power game or run option. But there are some indications this year that may not be the best option (no pun intended) for our team. You are right about the 3 and outs. If you suck running the ball you'll have alot of three and outs too. The only difference is a smashmouth team will use about 2 minutes going 3 and out and spread team could use as little as 15 seconds. The thing I like best about the spread is the ability to clear things up for the OL. Your OL may not be that great but there will not be as many bodies in there to block.
Huey--I like the point about the blanket "generalized" statements. Good point.
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Post by toprowguy on Oct 9, 2005 14:19:31 GMT -6
Coach Huey keep going defending the spread I love it and I might need some because our DC hates it and I love giving him reasons for it back.
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