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Post by coachank on Jan 25, 2008 14:09:17 GMT -6
Ok guys, want your input on this situation.
Say you were to take a job as a HC at a new school. They have been around .500 most years. When you come in you change the offense completely.
My question is, what about the defense? Say the place you are going has had a pretty good defense, and the DC there runs a different defense that what you want to run. Do you keep the defense and let him coach it, or do you wholesale change everything even though the DC might not understand the defense that well? How do you overcome the lack of knowledge of the staff on both the offensive and defensive sides of the ball? (just to set the record straight this is a small school that does not let you bring in new coaches with you.)
I would think you would have to go wholesale into what you want, but at the same time I can see some merit for consistency in at least a portion of the program.
Thoughts on this??
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Post by airman on Jan 25, 2008 14:27:27 GMT -6
i think it depends on the situation. if the defense is not bad like you say and you want to let the dc run the defensive side of the ball, then I would go with it.
I am not a defensive guy, so I have always let the dc run what he wanted. if he knows how to coach it and can get it done why not.
one less thing as a head coach to worry about.
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Post by rideanddecide on Jan 25, 2008 15:14:34 GMT -6
Depends on what you're comfortable with.
If you let the DC coach you up on what he wants to run and you see merit behind it then it's not a bad idea to let him keep some ownership.
Some HC's are not ok with running something other than their stuff. Others are more open. I don't think there is a right and wrong, just what you are ok with.
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Post by flexspread on Jan 25, 2008 15:15:00 GMT -6
I agree with airman, if the DC knows what he is talking about and not just talking out of his ____ then I would definitely want his input. If he can convince me that it will work (I'd be asking a lot of questions and drawing up a lot of scenerios) then I'd go with it because like airman said, that's one less thing I need to worry about. Ultimately, the HC is responsible for the success of the team and it is up to him to either delegate responsibility or keep the responsibility to himself. I couldn't imagine trying to be both the OC and DC and handle all of the organizational things that a HC needs to do, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't do it if I thought it was the best option. There is no right or wrong answer, it is all up to what kind of HC you want to be.
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coachpodach
Freshmen Member
We're on a mission from God...
Posts: 69
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Post by coachpodach on Jan 25, 2008 15:19:32 GMT -6
I agree with the above post, if you don't know the other side of the ball as well, you hire someone you trust will do well. That being said, I feel you should also understand the system you run. In a perfect situation, you have someone who is on the same page as you, is effective and most of all loyal. In my experience, find the thing you don't like(usually the thing you understand the least) and become well-versed on that subject. Knowledge is Power right?
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Post by phantom on Jan 25, 2008 15:22:04 GMT -6
Ok guys, want your input on this situation. Say you were to take a job as a HC at a new school. They have been around .500 most years. When you come in you change the offense completely. My question is, what about the defense? Say the place you are going has had a pretty good defense, and the DC there runs a different defense that what you want to run. Do you keep the defense and let him coach it, or do you wholesale change everything even though the DC might not understand the defense that well? How do you overcome the lack of knowledge of the staff on both the offensive and defensive sides of the ball? (just to set the record straight this is a small school that does not let you bring in new coaches with you.) I would think you would have to go wholesale into what you want, but at the same time I can see some merit for consistency in at least a portion of the program. Thoughts on this?? If it ain't broke why fix it? You say that the defense is good and the DC understands it so why force a change? Part of the job of being a HC is delegating. The man was hired to do a job. As others have said, if you think he knows what he's doing let him do his job. How do you find out if he knows what he's doing? Have him clinic you on his defense. |
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Post by seagull73 on Jan 25, 2008 15:34:11 GMT -6
I only have 1 requirement for my DC. STOP THEM! I know that sounds obvious but who cares what system they run if it is effective. I am an offensive guy as a HC. I want to know what they're doing over there but the bottom line is the score board.
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 25, 2008 18:47:28 GMT -6
I think you have to sit down with the DC, if hes a smart guy he can and will sell you on what he wants to run...and you may be able to sell him on what you want to do.
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clloyd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 210
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Post by clloyd on Jan 25, 2008 19:24:08 GMT -6
I agree, if you feel comfortable. And the only way to know is to find out what he knows and how he is going to coach the kids. There are no guarantees, but if after the 1st year you don't like what you see, then you could change it.
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Post by coachcoyote on Jan 25, 2008 22:19:28 GMT -6
We changed our O/D this year due to new HC and staff I felt we suffered on both sides of the ball because the kids played slow. Many were unsure of themselves and had no former players in the system to mentor them. This year should be better because we will have returners who have a working knowledge of responsibilities.
If the DC knows his stuff, and has been successful, let him run with it.
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Post by phantom on Jan 26, 2008 6:40:11 GMT -6
Superintendents do not tell Principals how to run their schools, that's why they hire Principals. Principals do not tell every teacher how to teach their subject area, that's why they hire an english teacher to teach english rather than just show any teacher how they want english to be taught...at some level you have to trust him to do the job you hired him to do, if you don't trust his way...then you shouldn't have hired him as the DC. You should run the defense and hire an OC that you trust. It's your defense, not his...no matter how he runs it, he's not going to do it like you would and you are going to find fault. I think it is very difficult for a HC to do it all by himself. I think ideally any HC would be looking for coordinators who are capable of being a HC themselves...meaning they are willing put in the time, they work hard, they are always there, they are know their stuff, etc. These thoughts are brought to you by a DC, who will be working for a new HC this year...maybe. When I interviewed initially, he asked me what I wanted. I told him point blank "I want to be the DC, I want to run a 40, and I want free reign of the defense from who plays to how we play it." I told him that I realized that a lot of what I was asking would be based on trust, and I had no problem with that. He said "Welcome aboard DC." Now we've been in the weight room for a few weeks, and I'm beginning to get the feeling that he's really wanting me to run his defense. Which by the way is also a 40 and is almost identical to the defense I already run. BUT, that's not the point. I have an "X and O" meeting with him on Sunday. I don't know how that meeting is going to go, I don't even know if he is explaining to me or I am explaining to him...but I can tell you this much, if his defense is the only way, I'm out. I will never run it like he is going to want it ran and it's just a matter of time until a problem occurs. That's not an ego thing, that's just reality. We've all tried to help our wife with something only to have her say "that's not how I want it done...no...no...forget it, I'll just do it myself." It's only a matter of time. Funny you should mention that because that's why I left my last job 20 years ago. The longtime HC had retired and they brought in a new HC. I had an inkling what was going to happen when we had the offensive X and O meeting and he gave us a playbook while the "OC" sat there with a WTF look. The defensive meeting was scheduled for next week in my trailer. Long story short, the same thing happened. The meeting starts and he tells us "Here's our defensive playbook" and plops one on each of our desks. We had had zero discussion about it. I didn't get mad. I just said, "Guys, the door's locked from the outside. Do me a favor and turn the lights out and put the desks back when you leave." and walked out. Within days I had my present job and that's how I ended up teaching and coaching at different schools. When we scouted them we noticed that they had people in the pressbox but nobody on the sideline was wearing a headset. Would any of you want to work at a place like that? My point is if you hire people to coach let them coach. |
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Post by coachcalande on Jan 26, 2008 7:53:21 GMT -6
I was hired as a new Oline coach, right out of middle school ball...the HC gave me NEARLY total control over the schemes, line calls, and it was given and take on a few things INCLUDING TERMINOLOGY but we made it work, our ground game and pass protection was much improved. Ill be honest though, i started working him almost immediately for some control as I know going in that I can do the job if Im allowed to do it. IF I am handcuffed I am simply not as effective. I think thats true of most people who specialize in any subject area.
that said, with trust comes responsibilty, I think its perfectly acceptable for a HC to put you to the test and ask you how to defend various offensive attacks, explain the terms, adjustments, personnel requirements etc. I have no problem with that at all. I presented my HC with an 85 page oline manual for his review. I spent time in the wt room chalking things and in the classroom and breaking down film together. its what it takes, earning trust.
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Post by schultbear74 on Jan 26, 2008 9:56:04 GMT -6
I had a similar experience to the one Phantom had. This guy lost a lot of good coaches that way. Immature and insecure are not good qualities in an HC.
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Post by champ93 on Jan 26, 2008 10:15:49 GMT -6
I presume the DC is competent as was stated in the original post. As long as he was not a "one hit wonder" I would let him run his stuff. Interview him, have him sell you on his philosophy. If it is sound, you have one less problem to solve (coaching your staff on a new D) plus you keep a good coach who the kids are familiar with. Plus he is probably familiar with your opponents and how to stop them. As you install your new offense you will have some hiccups due to the learning curve. Your consistent D may preserve a win or 2 early in the transition.
With all that being said, if he (the DC) has been fortunate to have the athletes to make an unsound defense look better than it really is, then you will have to coach him up or find someone else.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jan 26, 2008 10:25:10 GMT -6
all of this seems to be under the assumption the new HC doesn't have one of "his" guys in mind as the DC ... maybe even the guy that served as the DC where new head coach was most recently coaching
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Post by coachcb on Jan 26, 2008 11:10:27 GMT -6
1. If he's cemented as the DC AND
2. The system works.
Let him do things his way. No point in reinventing the wheel. However, if at some point you feel you need to change something, letting him run his stuff initially will make it easier in the long run.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 26, 2008 11:36:10 GMT -6
My stuff...his stuff..My stuff ! STUFF STUFF STUFF.
I searched hard for a thread I could have sworn was on here...the theme being "why do you want to be a head coach" I remember a sizable percentage of the responses had to deal with running "MY STUFF"
I find it to be one of the most interesting catch22's in all of football at the H.S. level. Coordinators griping because they don't want people telling them what to do, and then people taking the HC's position so that they can "run their stuff"
THAT SAID, I feel fairly certain that some of those in this thread (notably dcohio, and phantom) seem like the type of professional H.S. coaches that should they be a HC, they would not be the "my stuff guys" They would be about "your stuff" (aka, the kind of coach you want to work for)
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Post by tcm57 on Jan 27, 2008 9:45:10 GMT -6
I can just tell you what has worked for us. 3 years ago I hired a new Def. Coordinator and during the interview I literally handed him a blank sheet of paper and told him "It's your baby - whatever you want to run, run it." I was like the coach that posted earlier, I just wanted stops, period.
When planning practices, we designate a block of time he will need (indy, group, team) and he will give me his planned defensive practice and I just 'plug it in' to the schedule. He is the head coach of the defense and it has made our program better.
I believe in allowing your assistants to coach and have ownership. On the other side of the coin however, I have had to "let go" of some coaches (lower level especially) that were more concerned with their ego instead of the overall good of the program. ie: playing only 15-17 kids on a roster of 45+ to make sure you beat an opponent 42-0, etc.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jan 27, 2008 12:59:39 GMT -6
1. If he's cemented as the DC AND 2. The system works. Let him do things his way. No point in reinventing the wheel. However, if at some point you feel you need to change something, letting him run his stuff initially will make it easier in the long run. Again ... what if "MY" DC that I already have has a system that works and he can coach his tail off, too. Why not bring him with you??? Hypo's are Hypo's, of course, but don't most people have a "staff" in mind when they take a job? |
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Post by coachdawhip on Jan 27, 2008 13:57:43 GMT -6
I believe like Huey.
Does the HC have someone in mind and secondly interview and talk 2 the guy and if you like what he says keep him if not find someone new.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 27, 2008 14:03:18 GMT -6
Huey--Dawhip---
I would say that in many if not MOST places around the country, the coaching staff is not that flexible. If there isn't a teaching spot available that suits the needs of that person the HC has in mind, then chances are that guy isn't coming along with the HC.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jan 27, 2008 14:09:06 GMT -6
1 .... not here. i was released once simply because a new HC came in. no questions asked.
2 .... my first "loyalty" or whatever will NOT be with the DC (or OC) at the school in which I am taking over. It will be with the guys that have been with me. I will make all attempts to bring them on board before I keep someone that is currently on staff. Here, that's not a problem. in another state, I would still try to get "my" guys with me before filling the staff with guys on the current staff.
that's just me. but, there is more to being a cohesive staff than "well, the old DC runs a good scheme" ... what else does he do that meshes with my philosophy and the philosophy we are trying to install program-wide? I could go on and on about these other things. but, I just don't think it is as cut and dry as "his defenses have been good, i'll keep him.". I have a staff that I want to keep together, I have a philosophy or chemistry I want for my staff, I have an approach to certain things (meetings, training, practice, weekends, summer, etc.) that I want to maintain as best I can with those on my staff --- THESE are more important than if the old DC can coach "his" 4-3 real well ...
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Post by coachdawhip on Jan 27, 2008 14:12:33 GMT -6
I agree that slots are not available it's the same where I am, but you find ways to get your guys on your staff and then you move forward.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 27, 2008 14:16:00 GMT -6
Huey--I agree with you 100% on that...from the COACHING part of the equation. However, as i stated in another thread, in the vast majority of the states, that is #2. The teaching part is #1.
When you say you were released...did you lose your teaching position? Or just a coaching position? I would say that in most places, the new HC has complete (or near complete) control of who WON'T be on his staff, getting the guys ON his staff is a bit more complex. Easy to say "I am the new guy, and I am cleaning house" The hard part is then getting new guys in teaching spots so that they can coach. Especially if the previous staff is nicely entrenched in the PE spots.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jan 27, 2008 14:27:21 GMT -6
will just say that the dynamics of the way things are setup here are different. the main thing is that a person can not coach in a school district in which he does not teach. so, if a coach is relieved of his coaching duties he may not keep the teaching position AND go coach at another school. so, coach has to make a decision ... do I want to continue coaching and move (or leave school at currently) or do I simply wish to remain at this school and only be a teacher?
is it always possible to simply replace coach for coach here? no, but it is an easier transition than other places. I was told that I was relieved of my coaching duties. There was a teaching contract extended to me for the following year. Obviously, for me, that wasn't what I wanted. My release was professional (for the most part) and I completely understood. I did wish to stay on in some capacity but the new HC had his own guy to be the coordinator and also had guys on the offensive side that he wanted. I understood and moved on. "Fortunate" I guess for the new HC but it is common practice and happens at about 90% of places if not all. Also, when a coach decides to just teach, that stipend is opened up and will be attached to another teaching position within the school district. So, when a classroom teacher leaves, that position now becomes teacher/coach and the new HC is able to bring in someone new.
I'm not saying that if I take over at a new school that I would just "clean house". What I'm saying is that I do have guys I would like on my staff and will make accomodations -- as much as can be done -- to bring them in. Will this mean all of the 'old' coaches will be released? Of course not. I'm not saying that "my" guys are better ... simply stating that I would prefer to maintain "my"staff if possible so they would be first concern before retaining any of the holdovers.
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Post by coachank on Jan 28, 2008 11:06:19 GMT -6
dcocho,
glad to hear he was true to his word....
Just wanted to say thanks to all for your responses. Opened my eyes a bit. I have learned a lot and will take it to heart.
Thanks again
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