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Post by k on Mar 11, 2008 19:42:42 GMT -6
Hey first thing I'd like to do is get a link to a baseball forum much like this one if someone has.
If no one knows of one I'll ask it here. I've been talked into coaching the middle school baseball team who may have 60 kids try out for 17-19 spots. I've been told that the last coach wasn't renewed because he didn't handle the parent's complaints after tryouts well. I'd like ammo if it happens to me.
I'm looking for grading sheets for all the relevant areas. Anyone point me towards something?
K
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Post by spos21ram on Mar 11, 2008 20:16:55 GMT -6
I coach middle school baseball and have a grading sheet I use in case parents ask why their kid didn't make the team. We have 42 players trying out for 14-17 spots so I'm expecting some parents to call me afterwards.
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Post by k on Mar 11, 2008 20:24:58 GMT -6
Coach think I could get a copy of the grading sheet?
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Post by fatkicker on Mar 12, 2008 6:18:27 GMT -6
also, it wouldn't hurt to get a couple of your assistants to fill out grading sheets as well.....even if they aren't full time, get them to help for tryouts.....
plus, you could always go back and "help them" fill them out.......it's hard for a parent to argue when you have more than 1 coach giving the same report.....
if admin doesn't back you on that then you have a whole set of new problems other than baseball.......
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Post by scoresalot on Mar 12, 2008 7:11:00 GMT -6
I would definately have others fill out sheets as well. One thing that has gone a long way for me is to do face to face cuts rather than posting lists like some coaches. Finally, allow the parents to have their say, but do not allow them to try to compare their son to other players. You know the ones who come in and say that "my son has started in front of Johnny his whole life, and Johnny makes the team." Another thing that works is to make sure you give them and parents suggestions of things that can be improved upon in order to have a better chance in the future.
No matter what you do, you will always have those who will complain and try to make you look bad. Like fatkicker said, if you have sound reasons, documentation, etc. and the admin doesn't support you, that is when you need to find a new job.
Here are the things I have used with Varsity baseball:
Arm Strength Arm Accuracy Speed in 30 and 60 or home to first, home to second, home to home Bat Control Power Knowledge of the game Coachability Grades/Conduct
Graded them on a scale from 1-5 took the average. Usually it works out that the ones with the highest average make the team. Use grades/conduct only as a tiebreaker at the bottom.
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Post by fatkicker on Mar 12, 2008 7:47:46 GMT -6
couple things....
i like posting the team sheets by the office on fridays (i make myself hard to find through the weekend)....... it gives the parents and kids a couple days to cool down.....probably takes care of 90 percent of the potential problems.....
also, i don't agree with parents having a say.......if they want a say, they can go to any university, get a degree, and teach and coach.....
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Post by k on Mar 12, 2008 7:48:44 GMT -6
also, it wouldn't hurt to get a couple of your assistants to fill out grading sheets as well.....even if they aren't full time, get them to help for tryouts..... Our Football HC (who coached varsity baseball in the past) is going to give me a hand and I'm gonna bring a couple of my football players to help me set up and hold clipboards during tryouts. During the season however I'll be by myself. I'm not familiar with the administration at the middle school but I know I've got the backing of the AD and administration at the high school.
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Post by ajreaper on Mar 12, 2008 7:54:38 GMT -6
It should be this is the team I picked and the admin should say that's our coach and it's his team to put together. Most everything you'd rate is subjective- it's not cut and dry anyway and open for debate. Personally I'd say you have a meeting with all concerned and lay it out there:
Selection of this team is entirely up to myself and my coaches- it is not open for debate by you or anyone else (admin). I am not Necessarily looking for the best players but rather the right players. If you have an issue with this don't bother showing up for the try outs.
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Post by spos21ram on Mar 12, 2008 10:06:34 GMT -6
Yea i sent you a PM asking for your email and I'll send it to you....
Myself, along with my 2 assistants all full out their own grading sheet.
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Post by scoresalot on Mar 12, 2008 10:35:00 GMT -6
couple things.... i like posting the team sheets by the office on fridays (i make myself hard to find through the weekend)....... it gives the parents and kids a couple days to cool down.....probably takes care of 90 percent of the potential problems..... also, i don't agree with parents having a say.......if they want a say, they can go to any university, get a degree, and teach and coach..... What I meant by giving them a say is that if they want a meeting, I believe a coach should give them one. You let them express their concerns, then you explain why you made the decision to cut their son. My belief on posting the names is that if they are going to come and work hard for the week of tryouts, then I should explain to them man to man why I am cutting them. My belief is that they deserve a face to face conversation. Usually, they respect that more. In 8 years of high school baseball, I have only had one parental problem doing it this way. That parent would have had a problem no matter what. He called another coach of mine racist. The coach was African American.
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Post by thunder17 on Mar 12, 2008 11:01:47 GMT -6
Have a real short parent meeting before try-outs. Let them know that you do not have time to chart 100 pitches from each kid, or 50 throws down to 2nd. It is a subjective try-out. If you're planning to hit each kid 20 grounders and then chart how many they fielded, then I think that is just a waste of time. You're better off without the numbers, those can come back to haunt you. I also agree with cutting kids face to face.
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Post by spos21ram on Mar 12, 2008 11:22:37 GMT -6
The way we make our cuts now is with letters. The HS has gone to this so we have also. After the last day of tryouts we hand the letters out to each player. One letter will state they didnt make the team and the other says they have.
We tell them not to open it until they are on the ride home. Our school has a 24 hour polocy where a parent has to wait 24 hours to speak to a coach on a particular event or situation. So If a parent comes up to e right after tryouts i remind them of the policy and to contact me tomorrow.
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Post by coachwoodall on Mar 12, 2008 12:55:20 GMT -6
when i coached baseball at the high school level we would have to wade through 120-150 kids. We split the JV and varsity tryouts to keep a little sanity. We still did the face to face cuts. I think it is great tool to use to teach the kids about manning up and confronting a challenge. One thing that may help, is to have a parent meeting and tell them what is up from the beginning, especially if you (the school) had problems in the past. Where I was, our program was well established and most families already knew the deal.
We gave out 3x5 cards with comments on what they did well and what they had to work on.
I would suggest, if you have a wide age disparity in the kids trying out, look at the younger kids first. If you try out the older ones (especially with differences in maturation/kids getting held back/etc....) first, then every one else will look awful comparatively. That way if you are looking at your team from a developmental standpoint, you know what you will be promoting next year and what will be coming back.
Also, when you work your infielders, make every middle infielder field and throw from short. Some of those little squirts will run over and line up at 2nd because they know the throw is a lot shorter.
Again, if you have the time, have a separate day for pitchers. That way you have a different grading sheet for those kids that might be on the bubble. At my previous school, all pitchers without a field position worked the outfield. Strong accurate arms to make those long throws.
Also, how are you going to do the BP portion of tryouts? Either get a pitching machine and spend a BUNCH time getting used to it so whomever is running it can give each kid the same look, OR find you a horse of a BP pitcher who can give you LOT of pitches. That way no parent can say, "Johnny got to hit off so-and -so, but Jimmy had to face that guy who kept throwing it in the dirt."
You could also space out the tryouts over a week long period. The first cuts weed out the obvious ones who can't play. The later cuts will give you a longer look at the ones who are closer in ability to decide who can help you the most.
I actually liked doing tryouts for baseball. It made me really focus on what I wanted the team to look like, it made me focus on each kids individually, and it made me have to get used to making tough decision and dealing with the human consequences of those decisions.
Another thing we did was have our fund raiser (hit-a-thon) before tryouts. That way we got the money up front, before the cuts.
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Post by coachsowders on Mar 12, 2008 16:14:49 GMT -6
Coachwoodall:
Very well said. We do much of the same thing, however, our school wouldn't let us do the hit-a-thon before tryouts because they thought that kids might get false hopes.
Our tryouts were over a week. Like you said, we got rid of obvious ones by Wed. and the rest by Fri.
One suggestion for hitting is to do hitting stations. Tee-work, soft-toss, wiffle balls, bunting, and cage. Every group of 2 gets 10 minutes at each station. Tons of swings in a relatively short period of time. Different coach watching each station and taking the notes.
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Post by k on Mar 14, 2008 12:05:31 GMT -6
I appreciate all the input guys. I'll take it all into consideration.
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Post by poweriguy on Mar 14, 2008 14:10:54 GMT -6
First thing you do is right off the bat, is put everybody in the outfield and see who can catch a fly ball. That right there will weed the group down alot.
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Post by rideanddecide on Mar 15, 2008 5:11:02 GMT -6
Why are middle school kids getting cut? Are there other opportunities for these kids to play baseball somewhere else?
If not, doesn't that go against everything youth sports is supposed to be?
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Post by k on Mar 15, 2008 12:19:31 GMT -6
Why are middle school kids getting cut? Say 60 kids try out. We have 17-20 Uniforms depending on sizes etc. Plus one coach. I've got some help for tryouts but 60 kids without help? Give me a break that is a lawsuit looking to happen since one person can't supervise 60 kids. Additionally is it fair to either limit everyone's playtime enough so 60 kids get to play or to have people who'll never get any play time? They can play Babe Ruth but our Babe Ruth league is essentially a pick up league. No practices after the first couple weeks etc.
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Post by rideanddecide on Mar 15, 2008 16:10:58 GMT -6
That's too bad. At least kids have an opportunity with the Babe Ruth league.
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Post by spos21ram on Mar 15, 2008 17:57:59 GMT -6
Why are middle school kids getting cut? Are there other opportunities for these kids to play baseball somewhere else? If not, doesn't that go against everything youth sports is supposed to be? That's what rec league is for. Middle School baseball, high school, whatever is a privleage and an honor to play. That's the problem with our youth today. They don't know what it's like to not get what they want. They expect everything handed to them. Little League in my opinion is not sending the right message these days by having a 9 year old All star team, a 10 year old all star team, an 11 year old all star team, and a 12 year old all star team. There should be one team period. We teach them nothing by allowing every player that trys out to play. That's not what life is like. It gives them a false sense of whats to come.
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Post by rideanddecide on Mar 16, 2008 6:09:37 GMT -6
Kids can learn those lessons without have opportunities taken away from them. It's called good parenting.
The purpose of schools is to provide educatinal opportunities for kids in the community they serve. Any teacher/coach who is truly there for the kids will understand why it is too bad that 7th graders don't have an opportunity to participate on their team.
It' not about giving kids things they don't deserve, it's about remembering that they are kids.
I'll go back to a previous post about having 60 kids. Safe? Probably not ideal, but a good coach who can manage kids appropriately can probably handle it. If they kids don't like sharing playing time or jerseys then let the ones who want to quit and play in another league make that choice.
My brother coaches varsity football and 7th grade girls basketball at a very successful HS in the area. Their FB team is consistently one of the tops in the state. Their girls and boys BB team made it very close to the state tourney this year. He has 45 girls out for 7th grade basketball. Last time I counted 5 would get on the floor at any given time (that's half as many as in baseball). Yet they make it work. Girls get coached up properly in practice so they can develop their skills. They all learn the life lessons involved with playing a sport. Sure, playing time gets cut down a bit, but who cares??? It's youth sports, they are learning the important stuff and in their community league the coaches can set up teams however they want. However, the school doesn't tell their students they can't participate in a co-curricular activity because they aren't good enough.
By the way...this isn't an attack on any coaches. It's disappointing to see that the school is not willing to support their kids by hiring extra coaches and purchasing enough equipment. I understand coaches have to deal with what they are dealt. But, the school has a responsibility to provide opportunities to their kids. Especially in middle school when adolescents are searching for their identity. If money is a problem, then find it. I have a hard time believing they would cut kids from band because they only had one tuba, a saxophone, and a flute.
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Post by spos21ram on Mar 16, 2008 9:21:37 GMT -6
How would you bring 60 players to an away game? What ones to you let stay in the dugout? What ones to do you tell there is no room for you in here? What your saying is correct but is more the goal of little league and senior league which is recreational, not Middle school or high school baseball.
Here is one of the major problems that occur when keeping to many players in a competitive sport (not a rec league). I also coach girls basketball and I kept 15 girls this year our of 24 that tried out. I told them upfront that there was no guerentee they would play. The less skilled players of course are initially ok with this since they just like to be part of the team. Well the season goes on and they are the ones complaining about not playing eventhough they practice halfass. Plus with too many players it takes away practice time from the starters and players that actually act lke they want to be there. By keeping everyone you initially cator to the weak players but in the end you hurt the starters, the team, and those weak players.
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Post by rideanddecide on Mar 16, 2008 9:34:29 GMT -6
Every situation is different.
I would say it is the job of the school to make sure kids have the opportunity to play, that's all. Find a way to get it done. From my experience, the community and rec leagues could have the select teams.
This is all just opinion anyways, there is no right and wrong. All I can say is that I am furious that I have youth coaches determining that kids aren't good enough or dedicated enough to play in youth leagues and they drive them out. Then when the kid grows up and matures a little he doesn't want to play football anymore because he had a bad experience.
If you were a HS head FB coach, and all the kids in your middle school came to your HS. Would you want 7th graders not getting the opportunity to play on the team? Or would you find a way to make it work so everyone who came out had a chance?
Personally, I want every kid to play. If we had too many kids out as freshman we would find a way to make it work. Too many JV players? Find a way to make it work. Have two teams, play reserve games, but find a way. You never know who that kid is that is just going to "get it" some day and be a big time member of your varsity squad.
But, that's just how it is in my area. Every place is different.
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Post by k on Mar 16, 2008 20:49:14 GMT -6
I agree with your general point coach.
I don't like the idea of tryouts.
In highschool football we've got kids who have no chance to EVER step on the field other than being put in at split end when we run the other way or when we're taking a knee but I welcome them to the team. But then again we've got like 60 players and 6 coaches and all the gear we could possibly want.
It just isn't realistic to expect the same in this situation...
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 16, 2008 22:03:54 GMT -6
Every situation is different. I would say it is the job of the school to make sure kids have the opportunity to play, that's all. Find a way to get it done. From my experience, the community and rec leagues could have the select teams. This is all just opinion anyways, there is no right and wrong. All I can say is that I am furious that I have youth coaches determining that kids aren't good enough or dedicated enough to play in youth leagues and they drive them out. Then when the kid grows up and matures a little he doesn't want to play football anymore because he had a bad experience. If you were a HS head FB coach, and all the kids in your middle school came to your HS. Would you want 7th graders not getting the opportunity to play on the team? Or would you find a way to make it work so everyone who came out had a chance? Personally, I want every kid to play. If we had too many kids out as freshman we would find a way to make it work. Too many JV players? Find a way to make it work. Have two teams, play reserve games, but find a way. You never know who that kid is that is just going to "get it" some day and be a big time member of your varsity squad. But, that's just how it is in my area. Every place is different. I don't think you can compare football to other sports when talking about situations like this. In football, you have different positions, different skill sets, free substitution, and a much more controlled (play by play) game environment.. You also have 22 potential offensive/defensive starters, 44 potential common special teams (KO, KR P PR) and A BIG PRACTICE FIELD Now, if the middle school's athletic philosophy is that everyone should be playing, then I agree, they probably should hire another coach or 2, and then try to field either 2 or 3 teams. In baseball, the only equipment you "need" is a few balls, 5 batting helmets, and two bats. I do disagree with the community leagues as being the place for the "select" teams. We as H.S coaches have to deal with enough b.s. stemming from the vaunted select teams and their coaches. Football has been somewhat insulated from this, but H.S Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, and all of the "country club" sports have been besieged by "select" and AAU coaches creating a great divide in their programs and their athletic families. (You can read more about this in another thread--the "should read" thread for parents)
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