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Post by touchdowng on Jul 21, 2007 8:59:12 GMT -6
About 8 seasons ago I had a player tell me that he was going to miss 4 days of practice. He's adopted and for whatever reason his biological mom suddenly shows up after 15 years.
She wants to get aquainted with him (with his adoptive parents blessing) and schedules a 5 day rafting trip.
After wrestling with this overnight, I told him "no." If he misses more than two practices - unexcused (per our policy) I would have to remove him from our team. He stood there in tears when I told him my answer as I explained how unfair his biological mom was being with him. There is plenty of time to catch up, but in my opinion, the start of football season was not that time.
Much to my surprise, he chose football over his trip - and he was only a sophomore. To this day, that decision bothers me. I've stood steadfast on this policy and everytime I've had to make the same position - it's been a lot easier because of the beforementioned scenario and the position I took.
That same "boy" has had two tours in Iraq and always comes by to visit when he's in town. The last time, I apologized to him about my decision because I still am not sure if I made the right decision. He said that as much as he was upset with me, he understood and bears no grudge. I asked him if he every got reaquainted with his mom. He said, "no." Sometimes I wonder if it was because of my decision.
Still not sure if I was right. I'd like to know what others would have done with the same situation?
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Post by Yash on Jul 21, 2007 9:10:52 GMT -6
Wow thats a tough one. I am kind of soft when it comes to family issues like that and I probably would have let him go. I'm not one to cut a kid too quickly though, it would take misbehaving to cut a kid not a family thing like that. Family vacations need to be before football, but something like that is hard to not let a kid go to.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 21, 2007 10:09:49 GMT -6
wow..tough one. I hate to say it, but if he never got reacquainted with the mom---you might have blown that call. Not quite sure why you would say this wasn't an "excused" absence.
thats why I don't really buy into "policies", they just paint you into a corner.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 21, 2007 10:12:12 GMT -6
Good points, that really makes me thing about some of my previous stands.
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Post by tigercoach on Jul 21, 2007 10:19:24 GMT -6
Football Absence Priority List: (In order)
1) God/Faith/Worship Serivce; Not a church trip to the water park
2) Family - Family emergency, family major event, etc; cousin Joes 14th birthday party- NO!
3) Academic Issue, ACT/SAT test, recruiting trip out of town, etc.; Study hall because you didn't type your report on time, NO.
4) Football...
5) All else... girlfriend, work, dentist appt. etc.
If you absence falls into 1-3 and you have notified us BEFOREHAND, then you are excused.
This is how we apply our policy and still feel it is just for kids and the program.
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Post by poweriguy on Jul 21, 2007 10:34:57 GMT -6
Yeah, very tough situation. I believe that you have to allow yourself some wiggle room when it comes to mandatory attendance for practice, weight room, ect. Sickness, family emergency, funerals, academic reasons (testing for college placement, SAT/ACT) and other things that come up.
Honestly, touchdowng, I really don't know how I would have handled it. That kind of situation is really out of the ordinary and kind of hard to wrap your brain around. I think I would have asked the kid if he really wanted to go on the trip. If he said yes, then I most likely would have told him to "have a good time" . But still that is a hell of a situation to have to make a decision on.
Best of luck coach.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2007 12:01:27 GMT -6
Same list/rank order as tigercoach. But, if someone is absent for fifteen years of a kids life, is she really family? I'm not being judgemental with that last sentence; I'm honestly asking! Seems kinda weird to me that after not seeing a kid for essentially his whole life she would plan a rafting trip. I probably would not have excused him for the whole five day period, but would have instead suggested spending one or two days with her if possible.
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Post by kboyd on Jul 21, 2007 12:38:27 GMT -6
I don't think you can beat yourself up over this - if the biological mother really wanted to establish a relationship, why wouldn't she have tried something other than the 5 day rafting trip? I don't know her situation, so I'd rather not comment any more about her than my last statement. I know this was an extremely tough decision and you stood by your established policy. We follow a policy pretty much identical to tigercoach that allows for a bit of flexibility.
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Post by CVBears on Jul 21, 2007 13:33:45 GMT -6
But, if someone is absent for fifteen years of a kids life, is she really family? I'm not being judgemental with that last sentence; I'm honestly asking! As someone that is adopted and has met/established a relationship with his biological mother, YES she is family!!! She was family before I met her (I met her when I was 18) and she always will be family. If she told me that she never wants to speak with me/ruined her life/etc., then that would be a different story. However, I don't believe that touchdowng needs to beat himself up over this decision. She hasn't done anything since to establish a relationship. A true family member would see how big of commitment this young man has made, supported that endeavor and TRIED AGAIN to make relationships. If either one of them truly wanted a relationship, one would've been built by now. Don't sweat it! |
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Post by phantom on Jul 21, 2007 13:41:03 GMT -6
I'm not a believer in hard and fast policies but what's done is done. I also find it odd that the woman comes out of nowhere, schedules a five day trip, then disappears forever.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 21, 2007 14:01:52 GMT -6
Wow.... Thats all I can say, Wow...
I don't know how I would have handled it, but I also wouldn't have beaten myself up over it. I honestly think I would have handled the situation in very same way. Yes the circumstances were extraordinary, but if he asked for five days off because his adopted family was taking him rafting, then there wouldn't be an issue.
I guess before I would've said yes or no, I would've tried to set up a meeting between myself, the player and the biological mother. I would have sat down with them and explained to them that 2 days (maybe 3) was acceptable, an entire week was not.
You're not standing in the way of her and her soon developing a relationship; they don't HAVE to go on a 5 day trip to do that, at least not during the season.
I am the opposite of coachd, I tend to set policies and stick with them. I know I can paint myself into a corner with it, but I just need consistency. My policies are fairly flexible in most cases, but missing and entire week of football and school just wouldn't fly with me.
My current take on this comes from the fact that I used to be very relaxed and was taken advantage of by parents and kids. This was more due to the community I used to coach in- football was not a priority, even when we were having very, very good seasons (winning games and playing everyone, good repoir, etc...). I
ts hard to ask that the kids and parents make football somewhat of a priority when I was letting kids miss 3-4 days of practice to go hunting with dad because it was considered a "family issue". I tried taking everything case by case and just ended up being a hypocrite (and I do mean me; not any one else on the board). Because I let one kid go hunting with his dad (whose folks were divorced) I had a hard time saying no to other stuff....
To finish this up- I wouldn't beat myself up over anything. The biological mother and player could easily establish a relationship during the season without needing to miss a week of practice. Plus, I would think that she would want to take part in her son's interests; one of which was football. I
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Post by okpowerspread on Jul 21, 2007 14:04:16 GMT -6
Another way to look at it is that you might have saved this young man quite a bit of heartache. Based on the fact that she has not tried to establish a relationship since that one time, she could have been about half crazy and had some strange motive.
I personally agree with tigercoach and his hierarchy of priorities. But everyone knows that kid that has had 9 grandmas that died and had to miss practice. Family issues are alway tough to know where to draw the line. I say stand by your decision, its all water under the bridge now.
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Post by phantom on Jul 21, 2007 14:08:16 GMT -6
Another way to look at it is that you might have saved this young man quite a bit of heartache. Based on the fact that she has not tried to establish a relationship since that one time, she could have been about half crazy and had some strange motive. . I'm glad you said it because I was thinking it. |
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 21, 2007 14:08:44 GMT -6
Wow- I'm surprised any of you think this was a tough decision. He goes and with my blessing- each time everytime.
None of us knows why she chose to make an attempt to enter his life at that time- perhaps it took her years to locate him or to work up the courage to face him after all those years- she may even have had learned she did not have long to live and needed to tie up what she percieved were loose ends. We'll never know- perhaps she never recontacted him because she thought he was using football as an excuse and did not want any contact with her (after all would the average person believe a coach would remove a kid from his team when he was reconnecting with his birth Mom?).
I could never in good conscious ask a kid to choose between his family, faith or academics & football- ever. He may have some make up time to put in or he may lose some playing time but I would never threaten to remove him if he was missing due to something of this nature.
I personally feel not only was it a wrong decision but it what also unprofessional- your primary responsibility is the health and welfare of your athletes, to include their mental and emotional well being. Having lost the only opportunity he may ever have to know his birth Mother must weigh on him at times- how could it not?
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Post by phantom on Jul 21, 2007 14:11:45 GMT -6
Wow- I'm surprised any of you think this was a tough decision. He goes and with my blessing- each time everytime. None of us knows why she chose to make an attempt to enter his life at that time- perhaps it took her years to locate him or to work up the courage to face him after all those years- she may even have had learned she did not have long to live and needed to tie up what she percieved were loose ends. We'll never know- perhaps she never recontacted him because she thought he was using football as an excuse (after all would the average person believe a coach would remove a kid from his team to when he was reconnecting with his birth Mom?). I could never in good conscious ask a kid to choose between his family, faith or academics & football- ever. He may have some make up time to put in or he may lose some playing time but I would never threaten to remove him if he was missing due to something of this nature. I personally feel not only was it a wrong decision but it what also unprofessional- your primary responsibility is the health and welfare of your athletes, to include their mental and emotional well being. Having lost the only opportunity he may ever have to know his birth Mother must weigh on him at times- how could it not? As I said, I don't believe in tight policies but I don't think it's helpful to second-guess something that happened eight years ago. |
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 21, 2007 14:18:45 GMT -6
There's a reason why he's asking- it weighs on his mind, he's looking for closure and some honest opinions. It's easy for us to say what's done is done but I don't think that's going to make things right for Touchdowng.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 21, 2007 14:27:45 GMT -6
Okay- before this turns into full blow argument and the thread gets locked, lets all agree that we can agree to disagree.  I see where you are coming from aj, as I am sure everyone else does. It wouldn't be an easy call for a lot of us and I don't envy touchdowng for having to make the call. But, as we've said, the player and his mother could establish a relationship and get to know each other without missing a week of football and school. Touchdowng made a call and I know a lot of us would have done the same thing. None of us can say that his call was the sole factor in the kid not having a relationship with his mother. You don't have to go on a 5 day vacation to establish a relationship with someone. |
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Post by phantom on Jul 21, 2007 14:35:53 GMT -6
Okay- before this turns into full blow argument and the thread gets locked, lets all agree that we can agree to disagree. I see where you are coming from aj, as I am sure everyone else does. It wouldn't be an easy call for a lot of us and I don't envy touchdowng for having to make the call. But, as we've said, the player and his mother could establish a relationship and get to know each other without missing a week of football and school. Touchdowng made a call and I know a lot of us would have done the same thing. None of us can say that his call was the sole factor in the kid not having a relationship with his mother. You don't have to go on a 5 day vacation to establish a relationship with someone. That's what I'm saying. |
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Post by coachcb on Jul 21, 2007 14:44:39 GMT -6
I want to look at this from another angle; outside of football.
How responsible is it of this woman to ask her son to miss 3 days of school for a rafting trip? Most of the school districts I have been in or worked for would consider these absences to be unexcused also; ie he doesn't get to make up the work.
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Post by phantom on Jul 21, 2007 14:47:44 GMT -6
He said 4 days of practice but not a game. I'm assuming (and you know where that leads) that it involved two-a-days and not school. I may be wrong.
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Post by tvt50 on Jul 21, 2007 15:11:32 GMT -6
Touchdowng,
You have done the right thing and apologized for what you thought you did wrong. If the women really wanted to get to know her son she can find him. You are a good man, I dont know you but if it bothers you that much than I know you care. If you are right with him and right with the Lord, then keep doing his work. Thanks.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 21, 2007 15:21:32 GMT -6
Why do we assume it would have been easy for her to resechedule this outside of football season and in this case why would we think she should? LOL, this is not mom taking you out for your birthday or going fishing with Dad. How do you establish a relationship or get to know your Mom over lunch or phone calls?
I have a player who's leaving right after we return from camp on an Alaskan cruise- family reunion deal- not a time and date that's really up to just Mom and Dad. He'll miss 4-5 days of practice Mom e-mailed me apoligizing for his missing and asking what his punishment would be and if there was anything he could do while he was gone- I told her to tell him to have fun and come back ready to work. He'd have plenty of catching up to do but he's been working hard since spring ball in May, had excellent attendence all summer long and knows he'll need to battle his way back up the depth chart. I have a freshman who did not attend camp this past week because his grandmother was extremely ill and was not expected to live more then a couple of more weeks so he did not want to return home to attend camp- should I have told him "well you got to visit her all summer and there's nothing you can do for her so lets get serious about football". Most of you would have no problem saying sorry but you are not welcome within our program? You'd dismiss them? Sorry but it's hard to say we are all about building charactor and teaching life lessons when we fail to demonstrate understanding and compassion when it was so clearly needed.
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Post by flycoach on Jul 21, 2007 15:29:27 GMT -6
I'm not a believer in hard and fast policies but what's done is done. I also find it odd that the woman comes out of nowhere, schedules a five day trip, then disappears forever. She has really shown since how much she wanted to be a part of his life. I think you did save him a lot of heartache. |
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Post by schultbear74 on Jul 21, 2007 15:41:52 GMT -6
I have read alot of good opinions written by alot of good men here. I think that you have been blessed in that you have had an experience that makes coaching such a spiritual challenge and that you have learned from it.
I really like AJ reaper's approach to the deal. As I have gotten older, mine is similar.
The kid does come to see you when he comes back from the war. I'd say that your impact on the kid was positive regardless.
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Post by tigercoach on Jul 21, 2007 15:42:48 GMT -6
Touchdowng, You have done the right thing and apologized for what you thought you did wrong. If the women really wanted to get to know her son she can find him. You are a good man, I dont know you but if it bothers you that much than I know you care. If you are right with him and right with the Lord, then keep doing his work. Thanks.
Why do we assume it would have been easy for her to resechedule this outside of football season and in this case why would we think she should? LOL, this is not mom taking you out for your birthday or going fishing with Dad. How do you establish a relationship or get to know your Mom over lunch or phone calls?
I have a player who's leaving right after we return from camp on an Alaskan cruise- family reunion deal- not a time and date that's really up to just Mom and Dad. He'll miss 4-5 days of practice Mom e-mailed me apoligizing for his missing and asking what his punishment would be and if there was anything he could do while he was gone- I told her to tell him to have fun and come back ready to work. He'd have plenty of catching up to do but he's been working hard since spring ball in May, had excellent attendence all summer long and knows he'll need to battle his way back up the depth chart. I have a freshman who did not attend camp this past week because his grandmother was extremely ill and was not expected to live more then a couple of more weeks so he did not want to return home to attend camp- should I have told him "well you got to visit her all summer and there's nothing you can do for her so lets get serious about football". Most of you would have no problem saying sorry but you are not welcome within our program? You'd dismiss them? Sorry but it's hard to say we are all about building charactor and teaching life lessons when we fail to demonstrate understanding and compassion when it was so clearly needed.In my opinion these two posts say it all. Touchdown, as we all know, there is no manual to live life by. I think it shows an incredible amount of care & concern for your kids/program that you care enough 8 years later to continue to search for the absolute best method of handling the numerous situations that arise in a program everytime the phone rings. Again, my opinion is you did one of the most honorable things a coach can do and apologize for something you thought you messed up on. The facts to me are who cares about the biological mother, if she reaps some benefits from meeting her biological son, good, but big deal. It is the boys lives we are concerned with and try to make decisions everyday to make them better than when we found them walking through our doors... to me based on what you have said, you have done exactly that! I say awesome! If there is a coach on the board or any other who can they haven't made a decision regarding the program that they wish they could take back, I say BULL! I would be honored to have my boys play for a man that the character that you have displayed to me! |
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Post by biggroff on Jul 21, 2007 15:45:15 GMT -6
Why do we assume it would have been easy for her to resechedule this outside of football season and in this case why would we think she should? LOL, this is not mom taking you out for your birthday or going fishing with Dad. How do you establish a relationship or get to know your Mom over lunch or phone calls? I have a player who's leaving right after we return from camp on an Alaskan cruise- family reunion deal- not a time and date that's really up to just Mom and Dad. He'll miss 4-5 days of practice Mom e-mailed me apoligizing for his missing and asking what his punishment would be and if there was anything he could do while he was gone- I told her to tell him to have fun and come back ready to work. He'd have plenty of catching up to do but he's been working hard since spring ball in May, had excellent attendence all summer long and knows he'll need to battle his way back up the depth chart. I have a freshman who did not attend camp this past week because his grandmother was extremely ill and was not expected to live more then a couple of more weeks so he did not want to return home to attend camp- should I have told him "well you got to visit her all summer and there's nothing you can do for her so lets get serious about football". Most of you would have no problem saying sorry but you are not welcome within our program? You'd dismiss them? Sorry but it's hard to say we are all about building charactor and teaching life lessons when we fail to demonstrate understanding and compassion when it was so clearly needed. I like you angle AJ AS LONG AS THE PARENTS REALIZE WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES ARE. What gets me is the parents that take their kid out of practice for an extended period of time, their kid misses a huge chunk of football and needs weeks to catch up, and can't believe their son is not playing, and then blame me for being UNFAIR to their kid. From my experience there is a very high correlation between the parents that complain about johnny's playing time and the parents that pull their kid out of football camp for vacations and other family activities. The parents who pull their kids out of football for the summer are most likely to be high mainanance parents. We as a staff bend over backwards to make sure parent's know when football will be and when it won't be in the summer. We have summer camp for 2 and a half weeks in the summer (12 days). we make sure not to have any football outside of these 12 days. We give the schedule out for summer in November to avoid scheduling conflicts. Most parents are fantastic....they realize the importance of the summer camp and do their vacations at other times of the summer. I have not had very good experiences with parents that do pull their sons's out of summer camp for vacation. Most say they realize that their son will be hurt but missing camp but cannot come to the realization that I will start someone else because the kids at camp worked their butts off and knows the positions better than their son because the other kids came to practice. I would not kick a kid off the team due to family issues like the one in this post. PLAYING TIME....totally different issue all together. Sorry for venting.....this is a sore spot for me. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 21, 2007 16:05:11 GMT -6
Touchdown, as we all know, there is no manual to live life by. I think it shows an incredible amount of care & concern for your kids/program that you care enough 8 years later to continue to search for the absolute best method of handling the numerous situations that arise in a program everytime the phone rings. Again, my opinion is you did one of the most honorable things a coach can do and apologize for something you thought you messed up on. The facts to me are who cares about the biological mother, if she reaps some benefits from meeting her biological son, good, but big deal. It is the boys lives we are concerned with and try to make decisions everyday to make them better than when we found them walking through our doors... to me based on what you have said, you have done exactly that! I say awesome! If there is a coach on the board or any other who can they haven't made a decision regarding the program that they wish they could take back, I say BULL! I would be honored to have my boys play for a man that the character that you have displayed to me! I agree with this statement. The fact that he still visits, shows that even if you think you might have made a bad decision (and we all do this) the amount of positive you did FAR FAR outweighs anything. So don't beat yourself up, but perhaps, look into something a bit different in terms of your policy. (non dismissal) |
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Post by coachcb on Jul 21, 2007 16:24:13 GMT -6
I agree with you there biggroff- I have never kicked a kid off of a football team for unexcused absences. My policy is simple; every unexcused absence is a game on the bench. You have 3 bs reasons for missing practice, then I have 3 very good reasons to sit you for 3 games.
BUT- all of my kids know that if they choose to miss a practice for an unacceptable reason, then they will not play that week.
I will always give them a lot leeway when it comes to academics (making up tests), family issues (death or illness), or illness themselves.
But, the families have had the football schedule for months now; planning hunting trips and family vacations during that time doesn't fly with me. If they choose to miss practice for that kind of stuff; fine, but then they're also choosing to ride the bench for awhile. Its not fair to the kids that have been working hard and practicing.
Hunting is always an issue, every single year and it never fails. I explain to the kids and the parents the policy at the beginning of the season; they have it in writing from day one. But, I will always have a kid ask me if I can excuse a Monday and Tuesday because he's going hunting on Sunday. My answer is and will always be NO. The absences will be unexcused and the player will miss 2 games.
Now, if there is a death in the family and the kid going to miss a week of practice; there's no issue what so ever. He'll have my best wishes and chances are, he and his folks will hear from me; giving them my sincerest condolences. Same goes for academic stuff; if the kid is struggling in school for whatever reason and he misses or is late for a practice, everything is kosher.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 21, 2007 16:41:39 GMT -6
Biggroff- I agree totally with you, missing for a BS reason gets you time on the bench. For example if working during the summer was a priority for you and it caused you to miss a good portion of off season workouts, 7 on 7 work and speed/agility camp then do not switch gears in September and say playing is a priority. You made your choice now you live with it- period.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 21, 2007 17:05:07 GMT -6
My policy wasn't born out of ego; it was a necessity. I worked in a community for 4 years that didn't make anything sports related a priority. Wealthy kids and parents that had no idea what kind commitment is; not even with academics.
As I said, I (and our AD) took a relaxed approach to it and GOT WALKED ALL OVER. Kids were missing practice and games for unacceptable reasons and I was still playing them. I'd line them out with some extra conditioning after practice, but it didn't matter and didn't fix anything.
So, I got fed up 2 weeks into one season; our starting QB wanted to miss Mon, Tues, Wed for a hunting trip. I told him that if he missed those practices I was benching him for 3 weeks. He and his parents dared me to do and went on the trip anyway; I sat his butt for 3 solid games. We struggled without him (good option kid) and had several nasty arguments with his father. In fact, his dad had to be dragged off of the field by the AD at half time of the 2nd game.
But, I stuck to my guns and it panned out; no one even thought about missing practices for BS reasons.
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