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Post by eaglemountie on Jan 25, 2014 9:12:31 GMT -6
I have a serious issue that needs to be remedied. This is my second year as HC, we were 1-10 last year and have very low numbers in the weight room. I've promoted the off-season like crazy through flyers, Facebook, in my Adv PE classes, on the announcements, individually, etc. We have made the off-season based performance incentives, meaning we are giving rewards (shirts, shorts, hoodies, 1st locker pick, etc.) for breaking rep and max records daily. Kids will miss weights, I'll confront them about it and they will give me an excuse but I hear from their teammates that they heard from them directly that they "just don't want to go" or "just don't feel like it." Same kids I will talk to and ask/tell them to be in the weight room daily and they lie straight to my face saying they will be there and don't show. Another problem I have is kids coming for one or two days then I don't see them for two weeks. When they miss I will tell them the importance of the weight room over and over and ask if they are happy with a 1-10 record and the answer is always no. Even in that teaching moment they say all the right things but the action is not being taken. I feel as though I've tried everything from positive reinforcement to peer pressure to negative reinforcement to chasing kids down, etc.
Is there anyone else in a similar situation? Is there complacency everywhere? Anyone found a way to successfully combat this?
I know the key to turning our fortunes on the field around is through the weight room but the kids are not buying in...
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Post by realdawg on Jan 25, 2014 9:16:15 GMT -6
Call there parents and talk to them and see what happens. Be committed to playing the kids who are committed to your off season program. I like your incentives. Also base numbers and equipment hand out off attendance.
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Post by blb on Jan 25, 2014 9:18:55 GMT -6
Yes
Yes
No
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Post by eaglemountie on Jan 25, 2014 9:44:35 GMT -6
Call there parents and talk to them and see what happens. Be committed to playing the kids who are committed to your off season program. I like your incentives. Also base numbers and equipment hand out off attendance. Was definitely thinking about going the parent route. Parent support has not been great so not sure what type of response I will get but it's worth a shot. All incentives include: -Shirts, Shorts, Sweatpants, Hoodies -1st locker, 1st equipment, 1st number selection, helmet stickers -top 10: eligible to be elected captain, 1st in line for team meals, top 10 T-shirt, top 10 cookout, 2 days excused from august conditioning
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Post by coachrdc on Jan 25, 2014 9:44:53 GMT -6
Just for more information, how big of a school are you at? And a follow up question; how many multi sport athletes do you have?
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Post by eaglemountie on Jan 25, 2014 10:40:37 GMT -6
We are small at 300+. We also have quite a few multi sport athletes. The OP was talking specifically about those that do not play another sport.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 25, 2014 10:47:40 GMT -6
coach, check your PM I have a serious issue that needs to be remedied. This is my second year as HC, we were 1-10 last year and have very low numbers in the weight room. I've promoted the off-season like crazy through flyers, Facebook, in my Adv PE classes, on the announcements, individually, etc. We have made the off-season based performance incentives, meaning we are giving rewards (shirts, shorts, hoodies, 1st locker pick, etc.) for breaking rep and max records daily. Kids will miss weights, I'll confront them about it and they will give me an excuse but I hear from their teammates that they heard from them directly that they "just don't want to go" or "just don't feel like it." Same kids I will talk to and ask/tell them to be in the weight room daily and they lie straight to my face saying they will be there and don't show. Another problem I have is kids coming for one or two days then I don't see them for two weeks. When they miss I will tell them the importance of the weight room over and over and ask if they are happy with a 1-10 record and the answer is always no. Even in that teaching moment they say all the right things but the action is not being taken. I feel as though I've tried everything from positive reinforcement to peer pressure to negative reinforcement to chasing kids down, etc. Is there anyone else in a similar situation? Is there complacency everywhere? Anyone found a way to successfully combat this? I know the key to turning our fortunes on the field around is through the weight room but the kids are not buying in...
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Post by dropdux on Jan 25, 2014 12:52:36 GMT -6
What do you do before or after your weight sessions that is competitive / fun? Give the kids another reason to attend--something that the regulars don't stop talking g about... Ex: when basketball ends, we set up small teams and brackets and we will play touch football in the gym. Or we will go outside and run routes on each other in a FUN setting not a serious football setting.
Just a thought...I am in a similar situation. My enrollment is just a little larger.
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Post by coachplaa on Jan 25, 2014 12:56:41 GMT -6
I've been in this situation. The best I can recommend is focus most of your attention on loving up the kids that are coming everyday. Enjoy them and make it a great experience for those kids that ARE committed. The more fun and positive you make it, the better. Also, don't sacrifice the rigor out of fear that kids will quit or that it will keep kids away. I used to do that. Kids ask "why are we doing this" now more than ever. So the better you can make the weight room- through competition, music, tshirts, results, etc., the more kids will want to be a part of it. One other thing I did was I rewarded the committed kids that brought a friend with them. Your committed kids are your best recruiters.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 25, 2014 17:03:19 GMT -6
Stay the course, in the end most of us end coaching somewhere else anyhow. Many times for the better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 19:55:45 GMT -6
First, have you been very clear with what is expected? I assume that you have but make sure that everyone has got the message.
If this is a total reclamation project then you may need to take baby steps in terms of what you ask. Focus on simple ways to get the kids together in the offseason even if it is not a four day per week weight program.
If you can get kids to come out and focus on a good in season weight program and the gains they can get from that you may get them hooked. I coached at a really small school with low numbers and we just kept our in season program going year around and kids gained. It was minimal but at least kids bought in.
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Post by jlenwood on Jan 25, 2014 22:21:35 GMT -6
Do you hear that noise.....that clanking sound is the sound of the first lug nut coming off of the tires of high school athletics. It wont be long until the wheels come off. I truly don't want to sound like chicken little here, but almost every coach that we played last year had lower numbers than the year before. This site is full of posts from coaches talking about the low numbers and player-school-community apathy towards football and athletics in general.
At our school, we went from a record breaking year to approximatly a 30% drop in numbers. And it is not just football, baseball coach is saying he can't get anyone interested in getting in the weight room or doing off season stuff. Some sports we barely have enough to field a team. Ask the other coaches at your school what their participation is? I bet they are working their butt off to get players to get involved.
My theory is this, the programs and schools that have a long tradition of winning/competing will have the occasional blip of lower participation, but they still stay strong. The problem is for the programs that haven't made it over the hump to be a competitive/consistent program, or they are constantly "rebuilding". Kids just don't seem inclined to put in the extra effort when the chips are down to do what has to be done to get the program going in the right direction. I hear it all the time, "Were just going to suck so why try". They don't get that in order to "not suck", every body has to get on board and do the work needed. No amount of t-shirts and rewards is going to get the kids out at these mid to low level programs. Throw in community apathy, and the reality is you would be better off putting your energy into looking for another school to go to.
Hate to sound cynical, but I see so many things pushing kids away from sports (hard work, bad economy, pay to play, lack of mental toughness, mommies afraid of injury, NFL concussion coverage etc.) that I don't see this trend changing any time soon.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 26, 2014 6:42:15 GMT -6
Building a program isn't a great mystery.
Build relationships work hard care about the kids make it fun and competitive where you can communicate expectations- be consistent and stay the course surround yourself with great teachers and motivators
if you have parents and admin that back you - itll stick.
If the apathy runs thick and worse, theres no support or patience - youll be looking for work.
The question is always back to the teaching job- can you teach there if you get fired as a coach? Second question is can you coach and keep working hard if your kids are not?
With very small schools, the inmates often run the asylum and discipline and accountability are missing because the kids know you "need" them. If you are 1-10 with them, you might as well go 1-10 without them.
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Post by coachjm on Jan 26, 2014 19:27:14 GMT -6
Do you hear that noise.....that clanking sound is the sound of the first lug nut coming off of the tires of high school athletics. It wont be long until the wheels come off. I truly don't want to sound like chicken little here, but almost every coach that we played last year had lower numbers than the year before. This site is full of posts from coaches talking about the low numbers and player-school-community apathy towards football and athletics in general. At our school, we went from a record breaking year to approximatly a 30% drop in numbers. And it is not just football, baseball coach is saying he can't get anyone interested in getting in the weight room or doing off season stuff. Some sports we barely have enough to field a team. Ask the other coaches at your school what their participation is? I bet they are working their butt off to get players to get involved. My theory is this, the programs and schools that have a long tradition of winning/competing will have the occasional blip of lower participation, but they still stay strong. The problem is for the programs that haven't made it over the hump to be a competitive/consistent program, or they are constantly "rebuilding". Kids just don't seem inclined to put in the extra effort when the chips are down to do what has to be done to get the program going in the right direction. I hear it all the time, "Were just going to suck so why try". They don't get that in order to "not suck", every body has to get on board and do the work needed. No amount of t-shirts and rewards is going to get the kids out at these mid to low level programs. Throw in community apathy, and the reality is you would be better off putting your energy into looking for another school to go to. Hate to sound cynical, but I see so many things pushing kids away from sports (hard work, bad economy, pay to play, lack of mental toughness, mommies afraid of injury, NFL concussion coverage etc.) that I don't see this trend changing any time soon. I don't buy this... Our school had the highest number of participants that they have had in about 5 or 6 years this past season. The year before was the second best. Last year we had two middle school teams for the first time ever. In being a HC for 5 different HS there have only been two seasons where there wasn't an increase in numbers from the previous year. The first was I was new to a school and came in with the attitude of "changing the culture" this was mistake as really all I did was alienate a handful of boys that probably could have helped us. I learned having a certain structure, certian expectations, and a specific philosophy of discipline has nothing to do with culture through time the culture may change due to these aspects. The second time was in a year we decided we needed to increase expectations we ran 6 a.m. workouts all offseason again there was a negative impact as our varsity numbers dipped by about 10, although the total program numbers increased (they did not do the 6 a.m. work). Increasing numbers Ensure kids get to play when it matters at all levels Make sure you have coaches who teach/insipire vs. rep/discipline Make sure football isn't a year round "grind" these are KIDS playing a sport Have Fun as coaches with coaches and with players nobody wants to spend 12 months a year working out and playing for people that are miserable if you and the kids aren't enjoying it likely they aren't going to keep doing it. Laugh, smile, and cheer the boys on! Place the kids and other coaches interests in front of your own, keep it about them, their growth, their experience, their memories. We always say it is the Seniors team, everybody only has one Senior year and we as coaches already had ours so this is yours, we start the year with that each year and we end it with the Seniors leading speeches at the banquet, it is their team, we as coaches are there to guide their experiences, we dictate our schemes (we have more experience in this area), practice structure (to ensure safety and development), and playing time (and we make a good faith effort to give everyone opportunities in this area).
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Post by indian1 on Jan 26, 2014 20:06:05 GMT -6
^ well said. Also to the OP. don't underestimate the effect you are having on those kids. It's hard to see and sometimes does not show up right away. Keep being persistent.
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Post by jlenwood on Jan 26, 2014 20:47:16 GMT -6
coachjm, was your experience at a school/schools that were always struggling for numbers or a program that had a record of success? I do not doubt there are and always will be programs that just keep on keeping on every year, but it seems that a lot of places struggle to keep the numbers up.
I agree 100% with your statement about increasing numbers, but the reality is that there is a large number of coaches out there that think everything associated with High School football is about sacrafice and misery and what ever other barrier you can put up at a kid. There are a ton of choices a kid can make other than football, and if football equates to drudgery, you can count that kid out.
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Post by coachjm on Jan 26, 2014 21:33:10 GMT -6
coachjm, was your experience at a school/schools that were always struggling for numbers or a program that had a record of success? I do not doubt there are and always will be programs that just keep on keeping on every year, but it seems that a lot of places struggle to keep the numbers up. I agree 100% with your statement about increasing numbers, but the reality is that there is a large number of coaches out there that think everything associated with High School football is about sacrafice and misery and what ever other barrier you can put up at a kid. There are a ton of choices a kid can make other than football, and if football equates to drudgery, you can count that kid out. 4 of the 5 were coming off of losing records. 1st one I was an assistant at and became the HC, the school previous HC was a great coach and we had a good program. 2nd was 1-27 the three previous seasons with virtually no recent success. 3rd one was 2-7 the year before previous coach had some solid seasons a few year prior but not a traditional strong program since the 60's 4th one had 3 1 win seasons in previous 4 years (with a 3-6 season additionally) no real tradition here either. Current school was 4-5 the year prior historically a competitive program in league but hasn't won a league title since 94' so I wouldn't classify as a real power although they do have their share of solid seasons. In this time we have followed some really good coaches too that were having tough seasons for numerous variables. My point has much less to do with these experiences then it relates to why numbers go up or down. There are several steps we have put in place at all of these places to get kids out to play at all levels and in turn for the most part numbers have improved. When they have dipped I have been able to relate it back to me making some meathead decision that truly wasn't in the best interest of our kids. These decisions have generally been because of my lack of patience and my personal pride/ego getting in the way of the kids experience...
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Post by davishfc on Jan 27, 2014 9:08:50 GMT -6
Funny. So true, hence…funny.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 27, 2014 9:13:29 GMT -6
We are small at 300+. We also have quite a few multi sport athletes. The OP was talking specifically about those that do not play another sport. How many kids are we talking about?
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Post by davishfc on Jan 27, 2014 9:15:53 GMT -6
One other thing I did was I rewarded the committed kids that brought a friend with them. Your committed kids are your best recruiters. This is outstanding Coach Plaa.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 27, 2014 10:29:52 GMT -6
With very small schools, the inmates often run the asylum and discipline and accountability are missing because the kids know you "need" them. I am at a school of 300 or so students and have been there for two years. We were 6-4 in 2012 losing in the first round of the playoffs to a team that advanced to the semifinals and lost to the eventual state champion. Had we been able to maintain that level of talent we could use that playoff loss as a measuring stick of where we were versus where we wanted to be. Last season, however was a much different challenge. We played a number of inexperienced players who were much less talented than the previous year's team. I love the kids and actually have better relationships with them overall. But that doesn't change the fact that we worked hard and it didn't work out. In 2013, we finished 3-6 but the positive aspect is that we have 10 returning starters on offense and 7 returning starters on defense with an influx of talent from the JV level and our best incoming freshmen class in about 4 years. There are a few linemen that I am concerned whether or not they will make the commitment necessary for our program to bounce back in 2014.
With a few questions marks there, I made the decision to potentially increase the pool of talent from which to choose from at the varsity level. I had conversations with two freshmen that we will be taking a good look at them coming up to the varsity level. However, I did mention that they would need to have the best off-season possible in the weight room to ensure they were prepared. If I felt like they were not ready for the varsity level then we would keep them down on JV.The news of our potential acquisitions traveled fast among the entire program and particularly among the returning varsity players. I honestly believe that at least a couple of those linemen with questionable commitment levels had a change of heart when they realized there was legitimate competition for their positions.So this goes back to the concept of competition brings the best out of everyone. Now I'm not implying that this situation is possible for all coaches in this situation. It's a perfect storm for us. Obviously the kids would've called my bluff if the incoming freshmen I talked to were not up to par. They would've sniffed it out and the entire plan would've been compromised.So I'm just saying, continue to do what you're doing because it all sounds positive. No one factor will ever be the catalyst for anything that occurs when people are involved. But if you can pull it off, find a way to increase the pool of possible contributors to create more competition. I believe it's working for us here. I'll let you know how it turns out in October.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 27, 2014 10:33:03 GMT -6
Nice that you had a JV in a school with 300 kids.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 27, 2014 15:31:00 GMT -6
Nice that you had a JV in a school with 300 kids. We had around 60 kids in our program in 2012. We had great numbers at both levels. Last year, however, was just under 50 for the program. Our JV didn't play the last game on their schedule this season because, by that point, the varsity which was already small in number had been devastated by injuries. So we ended up bringing several players from the JV up to varsity. We just happened to have two classes in our seniors and freshmen that were really lacking numbers at the start of last season. They were both that way when I arrived the previous year and those kids were juniors and 8th graders respectively. So we saw it coming. We navigated this year to keep both teams intact which I believe was extremely important to the program. Fortunately we weathered the 2013 storm and we're on to 2014. This fall we're expecting to be back up around the 60 mark again. So the climate in terms of numbers can change dramatically in a short period of time at a small school based merely on the kids you have. There is only so much recruiting and retaining that can take place at a small school.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 27, 2014 15:40:18 GMT -6
Nice that you had a JV in a school with 300 kids. We had around 60 kids in our program in 2012. We had great numbers at both levels. Last year, however, was just under 50 for the program. Our JV didn't play the last game on their schedule this season because, by that point, the varsity which was already small in number had been devastated by injuries. So we ended up bringing several players from the JV up to varsity. We just happened to have two classes in our seniors and freshmen that were really lacking numbers at the start of last season. They were both that way when I arrived the previous year and those kids were juniors and 8th graders respectively. So we saw it coming. We navigated this year to keep both teams intact which I believe was extremely important to the program. Fortunately we weathered the 2013 storm and we're on to 2014. This fall we're expecting to be back up around the 60 mark again. So the climate in terms of numbers can change dramatically in a short period of time at a small school based merely on the kids you have. There is only so much recruiting and retaining that can take place at a small school. When I was at a very small school we had JV for about 3 weeks. Injury, eligibility- we ended up scrapping it half way into the JV season. The next year we didn't have JV because the eligibility issue whipped us out before our season even started. That was one apathetic community when it came to work ethic in school or in football. We didn't have 300 though. Maybe half that.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 27, 2014 15:55:40 GMT -6
Nice that you had a JV in a school with 300 kids. Also, were are in an 8 team conference with 7 schools ranging from 260-390. 1 school has around 160. Every school except the school of 160 had a JV team. So it's not anything magical that we're doing around here. I think part of what helps is we're realistic with the number of fall sports. Boys at our school have the option to play football or run cross country. There are a couple schools in our league that have soccer in the fall as well. Most coaches would say that doesn't matter, you would only get a couple of them anyway. Probably so within the first couple years of it not being an option. But long term, if the boys grow up know they will eventually play football then I think it becomes part of the culture in the community. Our boys here play football at this school. Or we get the majority of who we should have out at least. It's my understanding that there have been a few in past years at this school who have dual sported playing football on Friday night then running a cross country meet on Saturdays.This culture here is so much different than where I came from. We've won almost as many games here as I did in 5 years at a historically losing program. The program I was last at from 2007-2011 had only 4 winning seasons since 1976 when I took over. When I took over the program was 5-40 the previous years under 3 different head coaches.I was the 4th head coach in as many years. The year before I took over, the varsity season was cancelled due to low numbers and injuries. The team was 0-9 forfeiting the last regular season games. So the situation was extremely challenging to say the least. Not to mention this was a school that for years had soccer as an option in the fall. Boys did not necessarily play football there. I'm still convinced had they eliminated that sport that the football program would've benefited long term. If they come up in a culture where "boys play football" then you're going to get a lot more earlier. Keep it fun for them and they stick around until they realize they love it or at least like it enough to keep playing in H.S. Numbers are up. I think sometimes coaches are quick to take credit for increases in numbers at small schools. A clean slate has a way of creating enough curiosity but ultimately a culture will dictate long term what those numbers look like on a yearly basis. Just my opinion from two vastly different experiences as a head coach at two different schools over a 7 year span.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 27, 2014 17:11:07 GMT -6
That was one apathetic community when it came to work ethic in school or in football. We didn't have 300 though. Maybe half that. I know exactly what you mean Coach. On paper, the enrollment the school is accounting for, may appear like you have a certain amount of boys to potentially come out for football. But in reality certain cellar dwellers historically really don't have as many prospective players as the enrollment would indicate. Sometimes schools and communities in football, or any sport for that matter, don't want to be helped. There is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy that some schools and communities feel compelled to maintain. This ultimately makes it nearly impossible to even come close to getting over the hump let alone building a program. They're too busy stepping on their own d!@&$ all of the time that they cannot be successful. The adage "you need to stop losing before you can start winning" comes to mind. I mean honestly, how many schools have ever been so horrible for decades then have a dramatic turn around where winning is sustained long term beyond just a few years? Not many at all.
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Post by coachjm on Jan 27, 2014 17:14:05 GMT -6
Nice that you had a JV in a school with 300 kids. Also, were are in an 8 team conference with 7 schools ranging from 260-390. 1 school has around 160. Every school except the school of 160 had a JV team. So it's not anything magical that we're doing around here. I think part of what helps is we're realistic with the number of fall sports. Boys at our school have the option to play football or run cross country. There are a couple schools in our league that have soccer in the fall as well. Most coaches would say that doesn't matter, you would only get a couple of them anyway. Probably so within the first couple years of it not being an option. But long term, if the boys grow up know they will eventually play football then I think it becomes part of the culture in the community. Our boys here play football at this school. Or we get the majority of who we should have out at least. It's my understanding that there have been a few in past years at this school who have dual sported playing football on Friday night then running a cross country meet on Saturdays.This culture here is so much different than where I came from. We've won almost as many games here as I did in 5 years at a historically losing program. The program I was last at from 2007-2011 had only 4 winning seasons since 1976 when I took over. When I took over the program was 5-40 the previous years under 3 different head coaches.I was the 4th head coach in as many years. The year before I took over, the varsity season was cancelled due to low numbers and injuries. The team was 0-9 forfeiting the last regular season games. So the situation was extremely challenging to say the least. Not to mention this was a school that for years had soccer as an option in the fall. Boys did not necessarily play football there. I'm still convinced had they eliminated that sport that the football program would've benefited long term. If they come up in a culture where "boys play football" then you're going to get a lot more earlier. Keep it fun for them and they stick around until they realize they love it or at least like it enough to keep playing in H.S. Numbers are up. I think sometimes coaches are quick to take credit for increases in numbers at small schools. A clean slate has a way of creating enough curiosity but ultimately a culture will dictate long term what those numbers look like on a yearly basis. Just my opinion from two vastly different experiences as a head coach at two different schools over a 7 year span. Very good post... Variables like soccer in a small school, certain demographics ect. have a huge impact on numbers and long term culture. The other point that is right on IMO is the fact that coaches think the impact stems from what they do and the reality it is all about the KIDS experience, if they have a positive one they are likely to keep playing if they have a negative one they will likely stop playing regardless of their level and age. As Coaches we can impact this but there are lots of variables that are sometimes well out of our control.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 27, 2014 17:31:24 GMT -6
That was one apathetic community when it came to work ethic in school or in football. We didn't have 300 though. Maybe half that. I know exactly what you mean Coach. On paper, the enrollment the school is accounting for, may appear like you have a certain amount of boys to potentially come out for football. But in reality certain cellar dwellers historically really don't have as many prospective players as the enrollment would indicate. Sometimes schools and communities in football, or any sport for that matter, don't want to be helped. There is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy that some schools and communities feel compelled to maintain. This ultimately makes it nearly impossible to even come close to getting over the hump let alone building a program. They're too busy stepping on their own d!@&$ all of the time that they cannot be successful. The adage "you need to stop losing before you can start winning" comes to mind. I mean honestly, how many schools have ever been so horrible for decades then have a dramatic turn around where winning is sustained long term beyond just a few years? Not many at all. Another thing that made it challenging was the league had changed. The new league included teams with 800-900 students in the school. Not a great situation when some of those schools had rich traditions, separate frosh teams, fully staffed, separate JV teams and a strong tradition. later the league reformed to limit the enrollment to 450 I think. I think it helps if kids think they can actually make the playoffs. They are then more willing to work.
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Post by 2adaysfootballcom on Jan 27, 2014 18:23:54 GMT -6
My experience is that every senior class is different.
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Post by fantom on Jan 27, 2014 18:45:22 GMT -6
My experience is that every senior class is different. Although it sounds weird I've seen that a REALLY bad senior class can be the best thing that can happen to a program. I've seen senior classes that had talent but were such complacent, selfish douche bags that the underclassmen didn't want to be anything like them. Ad the saying goes: if you can't be a good example be a horrible warning.
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