|
Post by coachroberts99 on Jul 30, 2013 12:45:27 GMT -6
Hi Everyone,
I'm writing an article for the British American Football Coaching Association on "running up the score" (RUTS), I'm interested in what people thing actually constitutes RUTS, is it actually something we should care about? Anyone some good examples of when you've RUTS, or been on the receiving end?
Also, talking to you guys who might coach in leagues with mercy rules (in whatever shape or guise).... how do you feel about them? Are they universally liked? Any coaches from good teams which hate them? Any coaches from weaker teams that hate it?
All opinions really appreciated and be great to get more perspectives, especially from US coaches, a UK coach I spoke to said "this (the worry about RUTS) is a unique british problem worrying about fair play, noone else cares"..... when actually Mercy Rules etc are perfectly common in the US.
Anndddddddd. GO!
Matt
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Jul 30, 2013 13:26:14 GMT -6
Been on both sides. We have a "running clock" where it doesn't stop if one team is dominating another. Usually by five or more touchdowns early. I've always said that the first half is fair game. After that, if the score starts getting out of hand then it goes to back ups. Then to their back ups. Then to their back ups. There is absolutely no excuse for a kid to not see the field in a blowout. I think mercy rules are great to have. We are all in this for the kids. Sometimes a team is simply outmatched.
|
|
|
Post by tigercoach11 on Jul 30, 2013 13:34:11 GMT -6
ehhh tough subject...i think there is a certain extent to where it is reasonable. I got accused of RUTS in our district meeting last year by two coaches, here's what I told them:we ran our base 5 five RUN plays over and over our backups (what little we had...only 20 on roster) were in the game somewhere but I did not have a full enough roster to put backups in every position so the starters were playing their backup positions. I am not going to apologize for scoring nor will I ever ask my kids not to run our O (backups or starters) or D to the best of their ability. Our 2nd leading rusher in one of the games was my 5'2" 120 lb backup rb. the other three starters all got over 100 yards and some of them were only on like 6-7 carries. I also informed them that I was always told if I didnt like the score then get better.
Now my personal opinion: I don't take it personally if a team beats the snot out of us. If they have the depth I can tell a lot about the coach if he puts in his backups or not but a lot of teams we play don't have much depth. My first year we got beat 42-6 and 48-14 by two powerhouses and they threw it til the end (its their O but they still could have run some). I didnt say anything just shook their hand and congratulated them. The next year I had all the same kids returning and we saw both of them early and got beat (not nearly as bad) and then went on the road to both of their places in the playoffs and won. point is I didnt complain and I didnt let our players either we just worked our butts off in the weightroom/blocking/tackling and we finally beat the when it counted.
Now with that said I have been at places when I was an asst. that have no chance of winning games against most of their opponents. Never had an instance where the opposing coaches did not get their "shock troops" in. even those kids scored on us because they were better but the coaches did what they could to get his backups/younger players time. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Had they kept their starters in and won 100-0 then again it just says a lot about them as a coach, but in those places we were never "gonna get even" so if you can sleep at night so be it and good for you.
JMO
|
|
|
Post by gators1422 on Jul 30, 2013 13:39:09 GMT -6
In Florida when up 35 the running clock can be requested, it's required in the 4th quarter. We have had quite a few the past few years, we play football in the first half no matter the score. In the 2nd half we just run the clock, we don't run up the score.
|
|
|
Post by 19coach78 on Jul 30, 2013 13:51:07 GMT -6
In NJ, if there is a 35 pt lead at the half, it is a running clock in the second half. ( at least that was the rule 4 years ago when we played down there)
|
|
|
Post by coachroberts99 on Jul 30, 2013 14:20:13 GMT -6
So you guys who play with mercy rules at 35 points up etc... what do you think? Is it a good thing? Is there anything which grips your **** about the rule at times?
As part of the BAFCA board, we're always looking at developing the game in the UK and mercy rules are always one of the things we kick about as an idea.
|
|
|
Post by rsmith627 on Jul 30, 2013 15:01:41 GMT -6
I like the 35 point rule. I have been on both sides of that rule. Being on the losing side isn't fun, and I am more than happy to get that game over with quicker.
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Jul 30, 2013 15:18:27 GMT -6
We play full speed until half, and at least the first series of the second half.
Second series we pull our QB and start subbing varsity skill players.
4th quarter is JV.
We do not play JV kids before the 4th quarter, because they are only allowed 5 quarters a week. If they play the entire second half, then they can only play 3 quarters on Monday (or we face forfeiting our Friday night win).
That is what we do, now here is my opinion:
Notice how these conversations are ALWAYS about the offense. No one has a problem when an opposing team leaves their starting defense in to preserve the shut out.........essentially providing their best performance for the whole game.
But when the offense does the same, people's feelings get hurt.
Be better men.....when ahead and behind.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jul 30, 2013 15:38:02 GMT -6
We play full speed until half, and at least the first series of the second half. Second series we pull our QB and start subbing varsity skill players. 4th quarter is JV. We do not play JV kids before the 4th quarter, because they are only allowed 5 quarters a week. If they play the entire second half, then they can only play 3 quarters on Monday (or we face forfeiting our Friday night win). That is what we do, now here is my opinion: Notice how these conversations are ALWAYS about the offense. No one has a problem when an opposing team leaves their starting defense in to preserve the shut out.........essentially providing their best performance for the whole game. But when the offense does the same, people's feelings get hurt. Be better men.....when ahead and behind. Here's where it gets tricky. It does get annoying when the other guys are hooting and hollering because they're running a two minute drill against our equipment managers. When our JV offense is in against the other team's first defense, who's still blitzing and playing a 9 man front, it becomes a safety issue.
|
|
|
Post by gators1422 on Jul 30, 2013 15:38:06 GMT -6
I'm ok with the 35 point rule but sometimes I don't like it. Last year we played a team that shouldn't have been that bad and we were up 35-0 with six minutes left in the 2nd quarter. The coach immediately asked for a running clock and the game was over in no time. Kinda felt like his kids, our kids got cheated a little. We played 18 minutes of real football. That's my only complaint.
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Jul 30, 2013 15:40:23 GMT -6
As a DC, I typically pull my starters when up as well. I'm always looking for ways to get kids on the field. Whenever somebody on my team takes issue, I simply look at them and say "What's more important to you, yourself or your team? Why should you preserve a shutout at your brothers' expense?" That's usually the end of that conversation. Some say its promoting the wussifucation of American sports. I say it's trying to get reps for a kid who showed up, put in work, and isn't as athletically gifted.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jul 30, 2013 15:51:36 GMT -6
As I have posted before, too many times some of us HS coaches are our own worst enemies when it comes to the sanctity of the game.
We wouldn't need a Mercy Rule-Running Clock if it wasn't for some of us.
Even if a game did get out of hand early on, the back-ups could get more PT if some coaches' egos didn't interfere.
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Jul 30, 2013 15:59:22 GMT -6
Guilty. My first year coaching, an opposing coach pulled his starters when we were up so I called off the dogs. They got to the red zone and then called a timeout. I saw him put his starters in. I got angry and thought he was trying to get one over on us. So I put mine in. We stopped his offense four times and they got shut out. After the game, he came up to me privately and wanted to know what "all that was about". I said I could've asked the same of him. To which he responded, "I was trying to keep a zero off the board for my kids. 42-0 wasn't a big enough of a deficit for you, coach?" Boy did I learn a huge lesson that day. It never hurts to walk a mile ...
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Jul 30, 2013 19:56:44 GMT -6
We play full speed until half, and at least the first series of the second half. Second series we pull our QB and start subbing varsity skill players. 4th quarter is JV. We do not play JV kids before the 4th quarter, because they are only allowed 5 quarters a week. If they play the entire second half, then they can only play 3 quarters on Monday (or we face forfeiting our Friday night win). That is what we do, now here is my opinion: Notice how these conversations are ALWAYS about the offense. No one has a problem when an opposing team leaves their starting defense in to preserve the shut out.........essentially providing their best performance for the whole game. But when the offense does the same, people's feelings get hurt. Be better men.....when ahead and behind. Here's where it gets tricky. It does get annoying when the other guys are hooting and hollering because they're running a two minute drill against our equipment managers. When our JV offense is in against the other team's first defense, who's still blitzing and playing a 9 man front, it becomes a safety issue. I agree with this......which is why the varsity OL will play the entire 3rd quarter, and perhaps the entire game. Offense is the real safety issue. You can get annoyed on defense, but typically it is not a case where you are worried about your kids getting killed.
|
|
|
Post by lochness on Jul 30, 2013 20:59:06 GMT -6
Bottom line: I define running up the score as purposefully trying to embarrass or "prove a point" to an opponent by scoring multiple times after the game is in hand. It has little to do with the score, and everything to do with the intent of the winning coach.
|
|
|
Post by 33coach on Jul 30, 2013 22:10:11 GMT -6
In ms we have a 24 point rule.
It's a good thing. Also any coach caught obviously trying to running up the score (the common example is throwing 4 verticals when up by 30) can be ejected (which means he cannot coach the next game)
Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
|
|
|
Post by CoachHess on Jul 30, 2013 22:20:44 GMT -6
We play full speed until half, and at least the first series of the second half. Second series we pull our QB and start subbing varsity skill players. 4th quarter is JV. We do not play JV kids before the 4th quarter, because they are only allowed 5 quarters a week. If they play the entire second half, then they can only play 3 quarters on Monday (or we face forfeiting our Friday night win). That is what we do, now here is my opinion: Notice how these conversations are ALWAYS about the offense. No one has a problem when an opposing team leaves their starting defense in to preserve the shut out.........essentially providing their best performance for the whole game. But when the offense does the same, people's feelings get hurt. Be better men.....when ahead and behind. We play Dubber and his squad every year. He speaks the truth on what they do. First class program in every way.This past season, we were outmanned badly every week. Dressed 14 kids twice. By the half, most of our games were way out of hand and our kids were spent. We ran the clock in the 2nd half pretty much all year. We had no JV team, so teams could play their JV as much as they wanted in the 2nd half. We were accused by some of cheating the opponent of a real game because we ran the clock the 2nd half. Touchy subject for some I suppose. We didn't have much of an option, and gave the opponent all we had each Friday. I agree with what tigercoach11 said: get better, or get used to it. It is our job to stop/score on the opponent, and if we can't, then it might get ugly.
|
|
|
Post by offcoach1 on Jul 30, 2013 22:32:17 GMT -6
I have been on the wrong side of the blowout too many times. I don't like it and I think it humiliates the losing team. I am trying to build a program and I think football is the ultimate team game. I have had the opportunity to be up big also and a few times it was the result of turnovers and special teams. I pulled my starters even thought they did not have "stats". I try to teach them it is about the win and there are players that practice everyday and they deserve to get in and play also in those situations.
As far as learning lessons early in my career during a game in which we were having our heads handed to us the opposing team put in the subs and I started throwing with my starters. We scored fairly easy and after a failed onside kick the opposing team put starters back in and quickly scored. I learned at that point to sub my guys in for experience and if I left my starters in against a undermanned 2nd team we ran base plays as the clock ran out. Object to score for my guys but not to run over the young ones from the other team.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 23:00:16 GMT -6
Hi Everyone, I'm writing an article for the British American Football Coaching Association on "running up the score" (RUTS), I'm interested in what people thing actually constitutes RUTS, is it actually something we should care about? Anyone some good examples of when you've RUTS, or been on the receiving end? Also, talking to you guys who might coach in leagues with mercy rules (in whatever shape or guise).... how do you feel about them? Are they universally liked? Any coaches from good teams which hate them? Any coaches from weaker teams that hate it? All opinions really appreciated and be great to get more perspectives, especially from US coaches, a UK coach I spoke to said "this (the worry about RUTS) is a unique british problem worrying about fair play, noone else cares"..... when actually Mercy Rules etc are perfectly common in the US. Anndddddddd. GO! Matt I've played on bad teams who got drilled night in and night out and I've played and coached in individual games where we were either the vastly superior team or the vastly inferior one. To me, the only time it's "running up the score" is if you're doing it with the intent to embarrass an opponent. For example, if you're up by 30 with 4 minutes in the 4th quarter and you're running hurry up and throwing deep passes with your starters in, or you call a timeout to kick a FG on the final play when you're already ahead by 7, then you're running up the score (you're also being a total @$$hole). If you're just so good that your RB scores 6 TDs on his first 6 carries and then the backup comes in and scores 4 more on his first 4, then there's nothing to apologize for. I feel very strongly that anything a backup--particularly a backup who seldom/never plays--gets to do with the football cannot, by definition, be running up the score. As for mercy rules, we have a mercy rule in our state that says once a team is up by more than 35, it's a running clock unless the other team closes the gap to within 35. It helped put us out of our misery once last year against a vastly superior opponent and it helped us end games without anyone getting hurt against a pair of very weak opponents late in the same season. I used to hate the idea of the mercy rule because I felt like it killed the potential for legendary comebacks, but now I accept it as something that's probably for the best with the huge disparities in talent we have in US High School football. When the game is truly a foregone conclusion and your 1st stringers can't score on their 3rd or 4th stringers, you may as well get out of there and move on. It still doesn't stop some of the elite programs from hanging 70 on their weakest league opponents--one school here was up 49-0 before the end of the first quarter in a game last year.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 23:08:46 GMT -6
Bottom line: I define running up the score as purposefully trying to embarrass or "prove a point" to an opponent by scoring multiple times after the game is in hand. It has little to do with the score, and everything to do with the intent of the winning coach. I still remember watching this game as a kid. It's pretty much the classic example of "running up the score." voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/ill-show-you-running-up-the-sc.html
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Jul 30, 2013 23:27:15 GMT -6
Safety is huge. Played against a team that injured their starting QB because he was going to be pulled up to varsity the following week and they hadn't run the special trick play they put in for him. They called a timeout with 3:00 left and up by 24+. Ran a QB throwback. My OLB and ILB took great offense and absolutely crushed the kid as soon as he landed with the catch. Don't tick off the other team.
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Jul 30, 2013 23:30:30 GMT -6
Also coached against a school in a rough city last year. We ended up winning 66-6. We ran back ups. We ran zone, power, and counter. We had a running clock. We did everything. After the game, a large group of men in the stands told us that if we stayed after the game they were going to get their guns. We got on the bus and left immediately.
|
|
|
Post by macdiiddy on Jul 30, 2013 23:40:22 GMT -6
We have the 35 point rule with the running clock as well. The only problem we have experienced with this, is that we circle the game as an opportunity to get the JV and even the Freshman some reps on friday night. We always play a pretty weak team the last game of the regular season. So we use this as a reward for all those underclassmen that have stuck it out all season.
We have purposely pulled starters in the 2nd quarter out of fear we would reach 35 points by half.
But with that being said. Its a good rule. I feel as a team you should try and put as much points up in the first half as possible. If you are up by 4 scores, call off the dogs and start subbing after the starters gets the first series of the second half.
|
|
|
Post by coachroberts99 on Jul 31, 2013 5:03:47 GMT -6
In ms we have a 24 point rule. It's a good thing. Also any coach caught obviously trying to running up the score (the common example is throwing 4 verticals when up by 30) can be ejected (which means he cannot coach the next game) Wow, ok, that takes it to another level.... So is that a judgement call of the white hat? Does that also work in conjunction with a rolling clock? How do people largely feel about that? Does it not potentially reduce the game to a bit of a farce? Also do any leagues over there have a mercy rule where the score is frozen at let's say 50-0, the remainder of the game is played, but subsequent scores aren't recorded/don't matter, to let everyone get back ups on without worrying about tie breakers etc? That's something we're kicking about too as an idea.
|
|
|
Post by 33coach on Jul 31, 2013 8:10:07 GMT -6
In ms we have a 24 point rule. It's a good thing. Also any coach caught obviously trying to running up the score (the common example is throwing 4 verticals when up by 30) can be ejected (which means he cannot coach the next game) Wow, ok, that takes it to another level.... So is that a judgement call of the white hat? Does that also work in conjunction with a rolling clock? How do people largely feel about that? Does it not potentially reduce the game to a bit of a farce? Also do any leagues over there have a mercy rule where the score is frozen at let's say 50-0, the remainder of the game is played, but subsequent scores aren't recorded/don't matter, to let everyone get back ups on without worrying about tie breakers etc? That's something we're kicking about too as an idea. the ejection is a judgement call of the white-hat (Ive only seen it happen, and it was when a coach decided to throw deep on a team that he was up by 40 on....the kid caught it and scored.....and yea...i was on the losing side.) i actually like that rule, and so do the other coaches. (we could remove it if there was a consensus, and it gets brought up every other year..that we might be too harsh...but when it comes to vote, no one votes to change it)...it doesnt damage the game at all, it keeps coaches in check. a real coach, when up by that much, would be trying to end the game just as quickly as the guy who's losing... because we all know that the worst injuries happen in blowout situations...they are just ugly to be in on either side... coaches can elect for a running clock, but its not mandated. most coaches don't have the clock run.
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Jul 31, 2013 8:21:40 GMT -6
Here's another side of the coin.........
We got beat 70-0 by a really good flexbone team. We were a .500 ball club.....not a bad team, just hit a wall with these guys (varsity QB lasting 3 series didn't help).
They amassed their lead running IV, Midline, and Rocket.
In the 3rd quarter, up 50 or so points, they started to throw........working on their 2 minutes stuff etc.
We had ZERO issues with that, because as a decently athletic team, they had an opportunity to work on something they knew they would need later.
|
|
|
Post by 33coach on Jul 31, 2013 8:30:07 GMT -6
Here's another side of the coin......... We got beat 70-0 by a really good flexbone team. We were a .500 ball club.....not a bad team, just hit a wall with these guys (varsity QB lasting 3 series didn't help). They amassed their lead running IV, Midline, and Rocket. In the 3rd quarter, up 50 or so points, they started to throw........working on their 2 minutes stuff etc. We had ZERO issues with that, because as a decently athletic team, they had an opportunity to work on something they knew they would need later. i do believe that our rules are better suited for younger divisions. im definitely not saying it would work for Varsity or even Frosh/Soph...
|
|
|
Post by dsqa on Jul 31, 2013 8:30:43 GMT -6
RUTS can be controlled...
Kick field goals in middle downs to work on kicking game preparing for games later on when it will be the difference...keeps score down, ball is turned over either way, and they can't accuse you of anything...
Play backups full go, and explain they are playing to improve their minutes when it matters...however, this isn't being measured in touchdowns, but rather "first downs" - because in the big games that matter, that will be what matters to us, so take your mind off the big play and show us you can move the chains without mistakes! They must be taught to stop living by the scoreboard... this is really important when you are behind on the scoreboard in future games, and the team needs to understand this...If you know you will pound a team beforehand, you should be setting this tone all week...
This will get them focused on what will help in big games and take their mind off the beating they are dishing out...
if they are still dominating, run the plays they typically don't run well in practice as backups due to weak players...this will slow things down and challenge the weaker players to grow up...your team's chain is only as strong as the weakest link and the kids need to understand this...
if they do break a long run...so be it, but if are they are getting close, or you get the field position kick you want to try - send in the field goal unit...it's just like punting on second down...
Develop new players on defense in different positions, so you have better depth in big games if key players go down to injury.
Run man coverages, not pressure, that are more risky to your defense, but develop man skills...if they score, we have to get better.
Play a tighter zone coverage that develops corner instincts and gets more kids involved in the run if we can...
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Jul 31, 2013 8:33:07 GMT -6
Coach, thanks for the hat tip. For the record, we have no problem with the running clock. uukicker98 has one of the top 5 toughest jobs in the state of Indiana...........big basketball school, very new program, low attendance, one of the largest geographic areas (making ride situations difficult). When we get these threads about "we do X because we are so over-matched every week", I doubt it is at the level his teams are at. He has a special job.......because not every kid can play basketball, and the only place they will be exposed to the wonderful lessons of life will be in a football helmet..........PM him some encouragement. Keep on keeping on......
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Jul 31, 2013 8:35:14 GMT -6
RUTS can be controlled... Kick field goals in middle downs to work on kicking game preparing for games later on when it will be the difference...keeps score down, ball is turned over either way, and they can't accuse you of anything... Play backups full go, and explain they are playing to improve their minutes when it matters...however, this isn't being measured in touchdowns, but rather "first downs" - because in the big games that matter, that will be what matters to us, so take your mind off the big play and show us you can move the chains without mistakes! They must be taught to stop living by the scoreboard... this is really important when you are behind on the scoreboard in future games, and the team needs to understand this...If you know you will pound a team beforehand, you should be setting this tone all week... This will get them focused on what will help in big games and take their mind off the beating they are dishing out... if they are still dominating, run the plays they typically don't run well in practice as backups due to weak players...this will slow things down and challenge the weaker players to grow up...your team's chain is only as strong as the weakest link and the kids need to understand this... if they do break a long run...so be it, but if are they are getting close, or you get the field position kick you want to try - send in the field goal unit...it's just like punting on second down... Develop new players on defense in different positions, so you have better depth in big games if key players go down to injury. I have never thought of, or seen this before.........but I like it.
|
|