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Post by vince148 on Jun 20, 2013 18:47:41 GMT -6
My league medical director has asked me to check into these. Does anyone have any experience with these? They are supposed to help reduce concussions. How are they applied? Do they need to be trimmed? Are they any better than what is currently out there? Pros and cons.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jun 20, 2013 20:17:11 GMT -6
Kevlar inserts would not be my go-to for concussion prevention, that's just not the material's forte. I really want to believe in those Guardian caps, I just need to see the data to back it up.
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Post by coachjd on Jun 20, 2013 22:52:39 GMT -6
Many concussions are caused because of the whiplash effect. Kevlar and Guardian caps are not going to help prevent that! Get your athletes to strengthen their neck and traps is what a lot of the research is saying right now.
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Post by vince148 on Jun 21, 2013 10:57:12 GMT -6
I know that neck work helps. I'm looking for someone who has experience with them. Do they feel it's worth the investment?
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Post by ander02 on Jun 21, 2013 11:26:30 GMT -6
We had a number of kids get them mid-season last year. They came to us precut for the Riddell helmets and have adhesive backs that just stick to the helmet interior. One thing that you need to know (that we didn't account for) is that a helmet has to be fit with the Unequal padding already installed. We had a number of kids that were at the top end of a medium (almost a large) helmet who couldn't wear the helmet with all of the padding installed because it was too tight.
The marketing is pretty good from the company. A number of NFL players were using their product for everything from extra helmet padding to rib protectors. James Harrison, Michael Vick, and Tony Romo were a few that they mentioned. I actually saw the product to a couple of times on TV during the season when I was watching NFL games. So, it is being used.
All in all, I'd say our anecdotal data is mixed. A number of kids said that the noticed a difference after games but we also had a kid sustain a concussion while using the Unequal product (he took a pretty big blindside shot). Our school did not make the purchase but I did organize it for families that were interested in buying it themselves so there wasn't a financial decision on my end. So, does the product really help to reduce the impact of collisions and risk of concussion? I don't know that I would say that it does after our experience but I don't have any hard data to back that up. I figured that it couldn't hurt to try.
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Post by 33coach on Jun 21, 2013 16:37:19 GMT -6
Kevlar inserts would not be my go-to for concussion prevention, that's just not the material's forte. I really want to believe in those Guardian caps, I just need to see the data to back it up. My riddel rep told me that both the use of inserts and caps are not recommended.and void the helmets certification while in use ... Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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Post by vince148 on Jun 25, 2013 9:05:04 GMT -6
any other info?
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Post by huddlehut on Jul 17, 2017 22:09:08 GMT -6
Kevlar inserts would not be my go-to for concussion prevention, that's just not the material's forte. I really want to believe in those Guardian caps, I just need to see the data to back it up. My riddel rep told me that both the use of inserts and caps are not recommended.and void the helmets certification while in use ... Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards Yep. This is a fact! Steer clear!
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bullsvp
Sophomore Member
Posts: 190
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Post by bullsvp on Jul 17, 2017 22:43:51 GMT -6
Kevlar inserts would not be my go-to for concussion prevention, that's just not the material's forte. I really want to believe in those Guardian caps, I just need to see the data to back it up. I just don't get the guardian caps. To me it's like strapping pillows outside your car. As for any insert it seems like that could work against the manufacturer designed padding. I like that someone said that a kids still got a concussion with these, because I don't think completely eliminating concessions is possible, but helmet manufacturers are making strides and helmet design has changed a ton from late 90's to 2017, but one detriment to better helmets is that hard hits that would,leave your head ringing in an old pro air 2 or VSR-4 are barely felt in current helmet, lately our concussions were seldom from head on collisiosn but from either snapping back against the ground or contact from side or back often unseen by player. Our worst concussion in a few years was when one OL tried to jump over a pile and kneed another of our OL in the back of the head. His consussion was severe, missed a week of school, and stayed away from bright lights etc. when he came back to schoo,had those huge sunglasses given to senior citizens, missed about 5 weeks of football.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 18, 2017 8:17:29 GMT -6
You strap enough pillows to the outside of your car it'll make a difference. Rough terms here let's look at some concussion math. Say you're wearing your helmet and you run right at a brick wall headfirst. Vo=7m/s - that's 15.5mph so he's moving but not exactly a burner. V1=0m/s Let's say your passing will allow your head to stop over a distance of a half-inch. Basically it's the compressibility of the padding in your helmet. d=1/2"=1.25cm=0.0125m We'll assume constant acceleration which is wrong but reasonable. I don't want to do calculus here. So you're looking at a 200g impact. 100g is the rough threshold for concussions. Also I got totally lucky that it came out in round numbers. So if I add a guardian cap I increase d. If the guardian cap can get me up to 1" of deceleration time I get down to 100g impact. You won't quite get that much out of it but you also rarely run into brick walls at 7m/s. Point is, impact force is inversely linearly proportional to stopping distance. How much they help do that will have to wait until the UA study comes out.
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Post by fantom on Jul 18, 2017 9:29:43 GMT -6
Kevlar inserts would not be my go-to for concussion prevention, that's just not the material's forte. I really want to believe in those Guardian caps, I just need to see the data to back it up. My riddel rep told me that both the use of inserts and caps are not recommended.and void the helmets certification while in use ... Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards If these things void the warranty I don't see where there's an argument.
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Post by freezeoption on Jul 18, 2017 9:39:57 GMT -6
Right, any caps, inserts void the warranty, your medical guy should know that, that should stop what he is asking unless you guys have tons of insurance.
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Post by wingtol on Jul 18, 2017 10:19:24 GMT -6
Heard a Dr put it this way once...take an egg and wrap it in kevlar. Then drop it on the ground. Sure the shell will look OK but when you cracking it everything inside will be scrambled regardless.
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Post by irishdog on Jul 18, 2017 11:03:26 GMT -6
I have rarely had an issue with my boys getting concussions over the years because I have always maintained that strong neck muscles and traps did more for preventing the occurrence of concussions than anything else. However... due to the concussion mania in the last few years I decided to give the Unequal helmet liner a try if it in fact would help further reduce the chances of a concussions even more, and give the moms a little more comfort in knowing that I was doing everything I could to protect their boys.
The first year we had only one mild concussion (freshman who wasn't very strong caught a pass and was upended landing on the back of his head). His doctor said the Unequal liner may have helped prevent a more serious concussion. Second year we had two concussions. One was the same as the first year, the other was due to a knee to the side of the head (there are just some things about the game you can't control).
I would have continued using them until I found out that Riddell would void certification of any helmet using a device that would "alter the integrity of the original structure of the helmet and its intended use." So... we let the parents know, and we continued to place an emphasis in our strength program on working the neck and traps on a daily basis. Parents weren't too happy about it. Coincidentally that year our participation numbers went down from 35 to 30.
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Post by maverickrider on Jul 18, 2017 13:15:01 GMT -6
My riddel rep told me that both the use of inserts and caps are not recommended.and void the helmets certification while in use ... Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards If these things void the warranty I don't see where there's an argument. I really don't think that inserts void the warranty. We've been using them for 4 years, and even got steered toward them by our Xenith helmet rep. I don't know about the caps though.
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Post by hsrose on Jul 18, 2017 13:33:32 GMT -6
Warranty - I don't think that it technically voids the warranty. As explained to me by a rep it's that the manufacturer won't accept liability for equipment that is knowingly improperly modified/used ('alter the integrity of the...") . Adding a cap, a liner, a 5 lb face mask, drilling air vents, would alter the integrity of the original design (and associated testing and certifications) which effectively de-certifies the helmet. Something happens they will ask the coach in court 'Was the helmet modified in any way?" and if 'yes' then they are out of the liability issue. Probably not anywhere near that clean, but that's the gist of it.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 18, 2017 16:44:54 GMT -6
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Post by Sonofahitch on Jul 18, 2017 17:10:20 GMT -6
Kevlar inserts would not be my go-to for concussion prevention, that's just not the material's forte. I really want to believe in those Guardian caps, I just need to see the data to back it up. I've been in touch with guys at the University of New Hampshire who are pioneering HuTT, highly-controlled, helmetless tackling drills. The idea is that by teaching kids the proper form for tackling while they're not wearing helmets, they become more aware of when they strike with their heads. I know a lot of guys who really like the Guardian caps, but the trouble is that they add another layer of protection to kids' helmets, making it easier for them to lead with their heads. I don't know anything about the kevlar inserts, but the general thinking seems to be that altering helmets is a big no-no.
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Post by 33coach on Jul 20, 2017 19:54:33 GMT -6
Wow I can't believe this thread is from 2013 lol..
Got the same message from Riddel this week. ...
Any modifications to the outside or inside of the helmet voids the warrantee.
Hell now even if I use a non Riddel chin strap it technically voids the warrantee
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 21, 2017 4:53:02 GMT -6
Expect riddell to start selling a "Defender Cap."
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Post by bobdoc78 on Jul 21, 2017 5:34:48 GMT -6
You strap enough pillows to the outside of your car it'll make a difference. Rough terms here let's look at some concussion math. Say you're wearing your helmet and you run right at a brick wall headfirst. Vo=7m/s - that's 15.5mph so he's moving but not exactly a burner. V1=0m/s Let's say your passing will allow your head to stop over a distance of a half-inch. Basically it's the compressibility of the padding in your helmet. d=1/2"=1.25cm=0.0125m We'll assume constant acceleration which is wrong but reasonable. I don't want to do calculus here So you're looking at a 200g impact. 100g is the rough threshold for concussions. Also I got totally lucky that it came out in round numbers. So if I add a guardian cap I increase d. If the guardian cap can get me up to 1" of deceleration time I get down to 100g impact. You won't quite get that much out of it but you also rarely run into brick walls at 7m/s. Point is, impact force is inversely linearly proportional to stopping distance. How much they help do that will have to wait until the UA study comes out. This post gave me a concussion. This is like doing your math homework during gym class.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 21, 2017 6:46:45 GMT -6
Oh then you're really going to hate some of my other work.
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Post by maverickrider on Jul 21, 2017 10:31:21 GMT -6
Wow I can't believe this thread is from 2013 lol.. Got the same message from Riddel this week. ... Any modifications to the outside or inside of the helmet voids the warrantee. Hell now even if I use a non Riddel chin strap it technically voids the warrantee I don't understand how its a modification to the inside of the helmet. It is not attached in any way, and really as far as they are concerned is not different than a skull cap that rests on the head between the helmet and skull. That only applies to actually modifying or attaching things to the helmet.
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Post by 33coach on Jul 21, 2017 10:33:23 GMT -6
Anything that attaches to the padding or the outside is modification
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 21, 2017 11:01:45 GMT -6
Wow I can't believe this thread is from 2013 lol.. Got the same message from Riddel this week. ... Any modifications to the outside or inside of the helmet voids the warrantee. Hell now even if I use a non Riddel chin strap it technically voids the warrantee I don't understand how its a modification to the inside of the helmet. It is not attached in any way, and really as far as they are concerned is not different than a skull cap that rests on the head between the helmet and skull. That only applies to actually modifying or attaching things to the helmet. If I am not mistaken, stocking caps (do rags or whatever they are called) used to control hair styles may also void warranty. The warranty is written for a specific use, and wearing things under the helmet violates that specific use in their eyes. The rest is for the courts to decide, but it would be a shame to have to have such court cases.
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Post by 33coach on Jul 21, 2017 11:16:28 GMT -6
I don't understand how its a modification to the inside of the helmet. It is not attached in any way, and really as far as they are concerned is not different than a skull cap that rests on the head between the helmet and skull. That only applies to actually modifying or attaching things to the helmet. If I am not mistaken, stocking caps (do rags or whatever they are called) used to control hair styles may also void warranty. The warranty is written for a specific use, and wearing things under the helmet violates that specific use in their eyes. The rest is for the courts to decide, but it would be a shame to have to have such court cases. yep we were told that as well. so ive steered clear of allowing our players to do anything to the helmet - hell we dont even put decals on them because i dont want the risk.
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