|
|
Post by fantom on Apr 13, 2013 10:02:21 GMT -6
Watching A Football Life on the NFL Network and the story is about Jimmy Johnson. They told about the time Johnson saw a special teamer sleeping during a meeting and cut him. The reporter asked what he'd have done if he'd seen Troy Aikman sleeping. Johnson said, "That's easy. I'd have gone over and said,'Troy, wake up'".
Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Apr 13, 2013 10:13:23 GMT -6
NFL vs NCAA vs HS. JJ's sole purpose with the Cowboys was to win championships. Not the sole purpose of NCAA (in theory) and CERTAINLY not the purpose of a HS coach (in theory and in practice)
Also Fair is never equal, and equal is never fair.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Apr 13, 2013 10:37:52 GMT -6
Also keep in mind (and this is covered by the fair is never equal and equal is never fair comment) that Troy Aikman (and Emmit Smith, who is was mentioned the time I heard this same story... so it might be an NFL myth type of a story that just circulates regarding JJ) were Hall of Fame professional football players. There have been people with as much, if not more talent than either of those two that truly lacked the PROFESSIONAL qualities needed to succeed in the NFL. So, seeing Aikmen or Smith ..true quality professionals sleeping is going to elicit a different response than someone who has not shown themselves to be a professional yet.
Guy I used to coach with is the head of college scouting with the Pats. He said that it isn't talent nor is it injury that keeps the career expectancy of NFL players short. He says it is a constant recycling of players who can't manage the professional demands of the career.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 10:49:25 GMT -6
There's another story involving Irvin. He was suspended for a half of a game against Detroit for being late to the team plane. Dallas come out, goes three-and-out on first drive...so Irvin was out there for the second drive!
In terms of thoughts, the first thing I thought of was this is reality. The fact is there is a "rank order" on most teams, despite what coaches say, and most players do realize this and accept this.
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Apr 13, 2013 11:02:37 GMT -6
Also keep in mind (and this is covered by the fair is never equal and equal is never fair comment) that Troy Aikman (and Emmit Smith, who is was mentioned the time I heard this same story... so it might be an NFL myth type of a story that just circulates regarding JJ) were Hall of Fame professional football players. There have been people with as much, if not more talent than either of those two that truly lacked the PROFESSIONAL qualities needed to succeed in the NFL. So, seeing Aikmen or Smith ..true quality professionals sleeping is going to elicit a different response than someone who has not shown themselves to be a professional yet. Guy I used to coach with is the head of college scouting with the Pats. He said that it isn't talent nor is it injury that keeps the career expectancy of NFL players short. He says it is a constant recycling of players who can't manage the professional demands of the career. What Johnson didn't say but probably thought was, "Aikman WOULDN'T have fallen asleep". |
|
|
|
Post by joker31 on Apr 13, 2013 11:12:09 GMT -6
I agree with the "fair is never equal and equal is never fair". Players receive the treatment they deserve IMO and to me it usually falls onto your core values as a coach. Mine is that hard work triumphs all. I'll always respect players who work hard, especially in the off-season. The kids that don't, usually won't get treated the same way as the guys that do.
Just the way it goes for me
|
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 13, 2013 12:55:21 GMT -6
What we do as HS coaches we do (or should) as educators. Far different than NFL coaches. In fact, nothing alike at all. Pro and College Football have been negative influences filtering down to HS for a long time. |
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 13, 2013 13:12:35 GMT -6
I agree with the "fair is never equal and equal is never fair". Players receive the treatment they deserve IMO and to me it usually falls onto your core values as a coach. Mine is that hard work triumphs all. I'll always respect players who work hard, especially in the off-season. The kids that don't, usually won't get treated the same way as the guys that do. Just the way it goes for me So, you're going to make up your Depth Chart-give more PT to the kids who were at Off-Season stuff, as opposed to who the best players are at each position after Pre-Season practices? |
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Apr 13, 2013 13:25:43 GMT -6
We treat kids fairly, but not always the same.
The kid who never misses practices for four years but has to go to a meeting with his Naval recruiter, that's different than Johnny Blow who skips as often as he can.
|
|
|
|
Post by joker31 on Apr 13, 2013 14:00:52 GMT -6
I agree with the "fair is never equal and equal is never fair". Players receive the treatment they deserve IMO and to me it usually falls onto your core values as a coach. Mine is that hard work triumphs all. I'll always respect players who work hard, especially in the off-season. The kids that don't, usually won't get treated the same way as the guys that do. Just the way it goes for me So, you're going to make up your Depth Chart-give more PT to the kids who were at Off-Season stuff, as opposed to who the best players are at each position after Pre-Season practices? I talked about respecting them, at the end of the day the best players are going to play. For us, by and large our hardest working players have been our better players so it usually works itself out that way. I love the weight room and the grind of the off-season, just what I enjoy the most. I'm human, so I'm going to have a soft-spot for the guys who work hard in that setting. For the guys that work hard in off-season, they will get every opportunity to play. I'm a JV OC and we have an incoming freshman who's a 4'10, 95 lbs reciever and been to 80% of our workouts by getting a ride from his mom from the middle school to the high school. He won't be first on the depth chart, but you can bet your {censored} he'll be a play-runner and get to play. I'll bend over backwards for people like that. |
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 13, 2013 14:31:40 GMT -6
So, you're going to make up your Depth Chart-give more PT to the kids who were at Off-Season stuff, as opposed to who the best players are at each position after Pre-Season practices? I talked about respecting them, at the end of the day the best players are going to play. I get what you're saying, but "at the end of the day" - in spite of what you said in previous post, hard work doesn't "trump all." Your stud MLBer who came to 80% of Off-Season stuff but is an all-conference-type player is going to start over the "Program kid" who attended 98%. Reality is if you don't play best players you won't be the coach for long. People may respect you and your principles, but you'll still be out of a job. Of course if your best players don't do the necessary work - same result. Unless you play a lot of teams worse than yours. The conundrum of coaching HS football. |
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Apr 13, 2013 14:57:40 GMT -6
I talked about respecting them, at the end of the day the best players are going to play. I understand and respect what you're saying, but "at the end of the day" - in spite of what you said in previous post, hard work doesn't "trump all." Your stud MLBer who came to 80% of Off-Season stuff but is an all-conference-type player is going to start over the "Program kid" who attended 98%. Reality is if you don't play best players you won't be the coach for long. People may respect you and your principles, but you'll still be out of a job. Of course if your best players don't do the necessary work - same result. Unless you play a lot of teams worse than yours. The conundrum of coaching HS football. It is easy in my mind. I have standards to be on the team. If you meet those standards, then you are on the team. The players that help the team most, play the most. Playing is not guaranteed for anyone including the hardest workers and most outstanding teenagers. |
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Apr 13, 2013 15:04:22 GMT -6
I understand and respect what you're saying, but "at the end of the day" - in spite of what you said in previous post, hard work doesn't "trump all." Your stud MLBer who came to 80% of Off-Season stuff but is an all-conference-type player is going to start over the "Program kid" who attended 98%. Reality is if you don't play best players you won't be the coach for long. People may respect you and your principles, but you'll still be out of a job. Of course if your best players don't do the necessary work - same result. Unless you play a lot of teams worse than yours. The conundrum of coaching HS football. It is easy in my mind. I have standards to be on the team. If you meet those standards, then you are on the team. The players that help the team most, play the most. Playing is not guaranteed for anyone including the hardest workers and most outstanding teenagers. The unfortunate fact is that there are guys who, no matter how hard they work, are still lousy football players. As for "outstanding teenagers" we've had kids who if I had a daughter I'd be thrilled for her to have married them. Great human beings but they couldn't play dead in a cowboy movie. Hard workers and good kids will get a chance to prove that they can play but once they prove that they can't they don't. |
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 13, 2013 15:04:39 GMT -6
silky, outside of eligibility and training rules, what are your "standards for being on the team"?
|
|
|
|
Post by davishfc on Apr 13, 2013 15:06:00 GMT -6
The best players play...period. That gives our team the best chance to be successful. However, appreciation for the hard work of players during the off-season is something I will always have. So if we are at a point where everything is a push between two players and we need a tie breaker to determine who will be The Guy, then we go to off-season commitment and make an assessment from there. Obviously one guy wanted it more than the other and he should be recognized for that.
I will say though, I naturally find myself being more patient with the players that show for any respectable amount of days during the summer over the ones that are hardly ever there. For example, we had a lineman who showed up twice all summer last year. We open the weight room Monday-Thursday twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening.
He came out for the season and was one of our best linemen. I wouldn't chew his a$$ but when he didn't understand his rules on the OL, I didn't shy away from telling him we were out all summer long learning blocking rules so that we could minimize the mistakes in August...where were you? Of course I didn't tell him in the nicest way possible and I think that was a humbling experience for him because from that point forward I watched him try to learn with a greater sense of urgency because he knew he had wasted his summer of preparation.
He never ended up being a starter on the OL although he was an all-conference DL. He did, however, step in at key times last season on the OL when we had starters go down which allowed us to win a close ball game to a team we should have beat more soundly. He also stepped in against our conference champion who we lost to by a touchdown which would not have been possible with our next OL in the game.
|
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Apr 13, 2013 16:38:27 GMT -6
silky, outside of eligibility and training rules, what are your "standards for being on the team"? Over 200. Bench press 300. Run a 4.4. Just kidding. Lift all year. We are fortunate because we have strength class but a few might not be in there so they would have to make up. Do spring training. Do summer weights. Do 2 a days. In short, do what we ask. But at the same time, I am reasonable about that. Our in-season lifting is only twice a week and takes about 30 mjnutes. We do a plus 1 on legs in season. Doesnt matter what that means but in short that means that the legs are worked hard but "saved" so that arent worn out. The kids know that weight lifting helps them in all the sports and that I want them to workout to help the. In that sport and football. During the summer, they have to come to every workout that they are in town for. I just have to be told ahead of time if they are going to miss. We only workout twice a week anyways. If a kid tells me that he has a big summer league game that night and would rather workout tomorrow or the day before, I am flexible with that. I am not flexible with a have a big game so I dont want to workout at all. If a kd doesnt live up to those but wants to play, there are still ways to accomodate that. Miss spring training, miss a game and make up running for example. I am very fortunate because I am AD at a private school in Alabama where all the other coaches, the parents, and players want to workout. I have been at other schools where that wasnt the case completely but that is how I did it anyways. Lost some athletes that would have played if they wouldnt have had to work but we were better as a team for it. |
|
|
|
Post by joker31 on Apr 13, 2013 17:22:36 GMT -6
I talked about respecting them, at the end of the day the best players are going to play. I get what you're saying, but "at the end of the day" - in spite of what you said in previous post, hard work doesn't "trump all." Your stud MLBer who came to 80% of Off-Season stuff but is an all-conference-type player is going to start over the "Program kid" who attended 98%. Reality is if you don't play best players you won't be the coach for long. People may respect you and your principles, but you'll still be out of a job. Of course if your best players don't do the necessary work - same result. Unless you play a lot of teams worse than yours. The conundrum of coaching HS football. I should have been clearer, hard work trumps all in terms of my core beliefs/values. We have an acronym that we have for our program and to me that's the biggest one. We will give all of those guys an opportunity to play though... if we're up big, early in the game then they'll be some of the first ones in when we roll in our 2nds/3rds. For me hard work is more visual than numbers, I get used to which faces are at our offseason activities and are working hard while they're there. For me, a guy who is at 28 activities in a month versus the guy who is at 25 isn't a big deal. However it is when one guy is at 28 and the other is at 14. |
|
|
|
Post by jsk002 on Apr 14, 2013 10:33:00 GMT -6
Also keep in mind (and this is covered by the fair is never equal and equal is never fair comment) that Troy Aikman (and Emmit Smith, who is was mentioned the time I heard this same story... so it might be an NFL myth type of a story that just circulates regarding JJ) were Hall of Fame professional football players. There have been people with as much, if not more talent than either of those two that truly lacked the PROFESSIONAL qualities needed to succeed in the NFL. So, seeing Aikmen or Smith ..true quality professionals sleeping is going to elicit a different response than someone who has not shown themselves to be a professional yet. Guy I used to coach with is the head of college scouting with the Pats. He said that it isn't talent nor is it injury that keeps the career expectancy of NFL players short. He says it is a constant recycling of players who can't manage the professional demands of the career. What Johnson didn't say but probably thought was, "Aikman WOULDN'T have fallen asleep". That was my first thought |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Apr 14, 2013 10:57:23 GMT -6
I have benched a few talented players because they didnt attend off-season workouts. But, in each situation, the next kid on the depth chart did an adequate job and was only a couple of games of experience away from surpassing the "starter". They weren't necessarily the best player for the position, but they were the best for the program at the time.
Bear in mind, this wouldn't happen if the second stronger couldn't fulfill the minimum requirements of the position. One kid was a TB that could consistently get us four yards a pop while the "starter" was faster and had more big-play potential. It took the second stringer a game a a half to find his groove with the OL and he popped off big runs.
|
|
|
|
Post by 42falcon on Apr 14, 2013 11:11:19 GMT -6
It's interesting this is our first year implementing "off season standards" that have consequences, the consequences are things like not getting a single locker, no choice of jersey #, not eligible for a letterman jacket, no choice in equipment, can't be on leadership council.
I like to think we treat the kids fairly but not all the same. For example we have a kids who are playing spring football (community) and rugby. So the kid goes from school from 8:30-3:30 to rugby at 4-6 then 6:30-8:30 for football then home. He gets a check mark for attendance to the workouts so do all the kids playing rugby and or spring community football. Now we have a kid who is a rugby kid, rugby started 4 weeks into our workouts he never came to a single workout prior and has missed some rugby but thinks he is getting a free pass because he "signed up" for rugby.
Each situation is different and requires the application & interpretation of the rule or rules to be different. How much or how little you bend or don't bend will in the end be one aspect of your legacy.
NFL Network had a thing on Tom Caughlin and it showed how he had rules and was a hard ass on them and then mellowed a little and what that did to establish relationships with the players. The people dynamic is no different with HS students or NFL elite players.
The goals of the NFL and of High School football are 2 different things.
|
|
|
|
Post by holmesbend on Apr 15, 2013 10:46:45 GMT -6
Saw it and loved what he said.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrjvi on Apr 15, 2013 17:59:51 GMT -6
I've got 3 main things that we expect or hope for off season. if a player attends enough off season workouts (which are very compatible with other sports) they get a shirt and can get their nameplates for their jerseys. In the summer they need to get 15 of the possible 24 workouts or they have an extra conditioning session after each day of doubles until it totals them to 15. Very hard and they know it. they also need to get 275 on the squat if they are under 180 pounds or 315 if at or over 180. I also tell them that unless they are clearly better than another guy in their position the one who scored higher on the test gets the nod. We don't have any lifting class. These last 2 years have been very poorly attended (worst in my 31 years)in the weight room but the present freshmen are a renewed breath of fresh air. As I've said in other posts, we have a very anti-lifting sports coaching staff overall so it's tough to be as strict as I'd like to be. Good ideas on getting players on board from other sports but they haven't helped me much in the past. AD is not forceful either. Sorry to drift a bit out of the OP.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on Apr 16, 2013 5:27:01 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by hammer66 on Apr 16, 2013 6:22:33 GMT -6
I think all good coaches would treat the kids that show up for the majority of the workouts with a higher level of respect than the ones that dont. We try to elevate the hard workers. They get the first shot when camp opens. That window of opportunity can close quickly based on thier ability to perform. Now there are always guys that show up for everything and will never step on the field for you. Those are the players I personally like to take more time with in the offseason. We have one kid that is like that. When the season starts he will get lost in the shuffle. I had him at Corner the other day during a walk through installing coverage. I asked him who the #1 reciever was. He had no idea. I believe it is my duty as a coach to teach him those things. It is his duty to learn. Isn't that what the offseason workouts are for. Like I said he will never play for us however I want him to take something when he leaves the program. A knowledge of the game and the lessons learned from being in a great program.
|
|
|
|
Post by PIGSKIN11 on Apr 16, 2013 15:37:50 GMT -6
I saw this somewhat mentioned above but I believe it was Tony Dungy who said, "I may not treat you equal but I will always treat you fair."
I stole it and ran with it...
My thought process is everyone has a history and a backstory... That is what makes them who they are today. The more I know the more intel I have to make better decision on how to treat that INDIVIDUAL!!!
Example:
2 kids came late to a summer workout
Kid #1:
has his own car
no job
zero responsibilities
basically chose to be late
Kid #2:
no car and had to walk 20 minutes to get to school
was stuck home babysitting his 4 siblings
TONS of responsibilities
had to wait for mom to come home to leave for workouts
Both were given after hours per team rules
#1 got the full letter of the law
#2 was much less, per spirit of the law
I was not equal but I was fair...
|
|
