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Post by emptybackfield on Apr 7, 2013 6:24:44 GMT -6
I heard the announcers say that Gregg Marshall's (Wichita St.'s head coach) mentor (former coach at the College of Charleston) flew in and helped him break down film of Louisville all week. From my knowledge, his mentor was not a paid consultant on the Wichita St. staff. I'm not sure how this is even legal, given the NCAA has very strict limits on coaches, etc. Or, is it that they just restrict the number of paid staff members? This led me to the question(s) I wanted to bring to the board:
1) in your opinion is this type of thing unethical?
2) have you ever done a similar thing?
A few years ago we were in the playoffs and I notice there is a guy not on our staff up in the box with us. He was a buddy of a couple guys on staff and his team had gotten bounced already. He didn't provide much help, but I always questioned the ethics of having him even be in the box for a game that he was not part of the coaching staff. Plus, I think it is kind of a slap in the face to the other coaches on staff.
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Post by indian1 on Apr 7, 2013 6:37:06 GMT -6
When I was an assistant on a staff that made playoffs we got some help from another HC that our HC was tight with. He helped us mostly with film breakdown. I never thought of it as a slap in the face. I was glad for the help hoping he could help us win.
Why do you thing this could raise ethical questions? To me it's just a friend helping a friend
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Post by emptybackfield on Apr 7, 2013 7:09:40 GMT -6
Well, your coaching staff is a part of your team and you're adding people to your team that aren't a part of it.
They don't allow you to bring in new players, so why would adding coaches be different?
I don't feel particularly strong about it one way or another, just driving discussion.
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Post by blb on Apr 7, 2013 7:19:29 GMT -6
The NCAA restrictions are on on-field coaches including GAs I believe.
Friend of mine always had his old HS and college coach in the booth for playoffs.
His assistants DID take it as a slap in the face.
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Post by spos21ram on Apr 7, 2013 8:04:07 GMT -6
I don't see a problem with it as long as it's not on field or in game coaching
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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Post by dbcoach19 on Apr 7, 2013 10:23:19 GMT -6
I have friends that coach in the area at schools that we don't play/don't play anyone on our schedule. I have them take a look at our game film whenever they are willing, more so to get a report on my team. It helps having someone who doesn't have any kind of relationship with your players to give you an unbiased look. I've also watched opponent film with my dad (former coach) to help break down opponents. I wouldn't bring a coach to the sidelines or booth ever (I dont think I would at least) but I don't see a problem with game film help.
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Post by pirates2012 on Apr 7, 2013 10:41:21 GMT -6
so long as he wasn't at the practice and on the court coaching I don't think it was unethical
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Post by emptybackfield on Apr 7, 2013 12:00:12 GMT -6
so long as he wasn't at the practice and on the court coaching I don't think it was unethical So, you're saying the line should be drawn at player contact? What about the Friday night in-booth coaches? |
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 7, 2013 12:11:38 GMT -6
I would equate in booth coaching with on court (but on bench, not on the stool/floor) coaching.
Is flying in and breaking down film during the week any different than having an extended phone conversation with a buddy about a mutual opponent?
Now, I would say the bigger issue would be staff cohesion, depending on how things happened.
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Post by Underdeveloped on Apr 7, 2013 12:12:17 GMT -6
I have called coaches weekly to ask for advice or to see if our gameplan was sound. Never once have i worried about the ethics of that. That is using your resources. #family
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Post by fantom on Apr 7, 2013 12:13:48 GMT -6
so long as he wasn't at the practice and on the court coaching I don't think it was unethical So, you're saying the line should be drawn at player contact? What about the Friday night in-booth coaches? In college they have staff limits so player contact would be out. In HS, I don't see anything unethical but I can see where it could create a touchy situation on a staff. The booth? The more eyes the merrier. |
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Post by emptybackfield on Apr 7, 2013 12:55:44 GMT -6
I have called coaches weekly to ask for advice or to see if our gameplan was sound. Never once have i worried about the ethics of that. That is using your resources. #family Yes, calling someone on the phone to ask for advice is totally different than having a guy from outside your staff come in and help you gameplan and even taking part in the coaching on Friday nights. |
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Post by fantom on Apr 7, 2013 13:09:34 GMT -6
I have called coaches weekly to ask for advice or to see if our gameplan was sound. Never once have i worried about the ethics of that. That is using your resources. #family Yes, calling someone on the phone to ask for advice is totally different than having a guy from outside your staff come in and help you gameplan and even taking part in the coaching on Friday nights. Why? |
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Post by Underdeveloped on Apr 7, 2013 13:35:23 GMT -6
At the end of the day your team has to execute. If we cant have help from other coaches perhaps we should get rid of this website ... lol
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Post by emptybackfield on Apr 7, 2013 15:20:15 GMT -6
At the end of the day your team has to execute. If we cant have help from other coaches perhaps we should get rid of this website ... lol I guess if you are of the school of thought that there is no gray area on what "help" is then I can see your point. However, I'm not near as black and white about it as you are, evidently. Asking coaches how they defend inside veer is a little more benign than having a coach from an outside staff spend a week helping you game plan. |
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Post by carookie on Apr 7, 2013 16:29:11 GMT -6
Several years back I was DC for a school heading into the playoffs. My predecessor, and a real good friend, who left to take a HC job the year before did not make the playoffs. He came in during our film breakdown and talked a bit. Its not as if it mattered that much in the end, we were gonna basically do what we do and make the adjustments that we make.
As others have written, its different in HS with there being no regulations on staff limits. I think its been hinted at already how this can be a slippery slope; at what point does hanging out talking ball become game planning.
I think the no player coaching idea should be a rule, that seems like something that is easy to define and follow.
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Post by fballcoachg on Apr 7, 2013 19:21:13 GMT -6
I can definitely understand the staff taking it as a slap in the face if a non team coach was in the meetings and press box especially I this guys insight is taken in to more consideration than the staffs. It's almost the equivalent as saying "thanks for help in the regular season, now I need someone better for the playoffs."
And there is a clear difference between calling someone and saying "hey what did you guys see/have success against them with" and having a guy come in to the both and get on the headset.
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Post by emptybackfield on Apr 7, 2013 19:41:38 GMT -6
damn G, I was hoping you'd let me in the booth when you guys played for a state title
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Post by Underdeveloped on Apr 7, 2013 20:37:37 GMT -6
I find it hard to believe any of us would welcome someone actually coaching up our kids in practice. Or better yet a HC allowing someone a headset that wasn't on staff all year. Especially if that headset took someone else's work. As a HC i would never do that. I have allowed and seen others from surrounding staffs in the booth or on sidelines showing support.
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Post by lions23 on Apr 7, 2013 20:42:25 GMT -6
In between jobs a buddy with a new job kept in the loop with their film and kept asking for my opinions. I obliged because I missed it. I gave him notes every week and they were very thankful after a suggestion that led to a big win. They dropped off a case a beer as a show of gratitude. In the long run it paid off. The networking got me a job offer a year later and got my name out with some guys who have gone on to become very successful.
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Post by fballcoachg on Apr 8, 2013 6:44:55 GMT -6
damnG, I was hoping you'd let me in the booth when you guys played for a state title I'll make an exception since that will be the same year Cleveland wins a championship...in anything |
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filmjunkie
Sophomore Member
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Post by filmjunkie on Apr 8, 2013 10:08:53 GMT -6
When I was coaching in HS, our OC had his buddy, a former DC who he worked with at another school, help us gameplan on Sundays, and was on the headset in the box on Friday nights. He never did any coaching of players. I don't think any of our assistants took it as a slap in the face, he was a guy who really knew his stuff, and we were glad to have him along with us that season. (We ended up making it to the State Semi-Finals that year before losing to the eventual state champions)
I personally don't see anything unethical about doing it, especially in high school where there are generally no restrictions on coaches. As far as the college game goes, like someone else said, it's just using your resources. It's a totally different matter altogether if you bring in another guy who is an on-the-field coach, but having someone you respect look at some film is just good coaching, and getting another perspective.
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Post by fantom on Apr 8, 2013 10:18:57 GMT -6
When I was coaching in HS, our OC had his buddy, a former DC who he worked with at another school, help us gameplan on Sundays, and was on the headset in the box on Friday nights. He never did any coaching of players. I don't think any of our assistants took it as a slap in the face, he was a guy who really knew his stuff, and we were glad to have him along with us that season. (We ended up making it to the State Semi-Finals that year before losing to the eventual state champions) I personally don't see anything unethical about doing it, especially in high school where there are generally no restrictions on coaches. As far as the college game goes, like someone else said, it's just using your resources. It's a totally different matter altogether if you bring in another guy who is an on-the-field coach, but having someone you respect look at some film is just good coaching, and getting another perspective. Especially in the playoffs. You may be prepping for a team that you haven't seen before, you may have a lot more film than you do for a regular season game, and you have a short time to get it together. Another set of eyes can be helpful. For the life of me, I can't see why anybody would consider that unethical. |
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Post by groundchuck on Apr 8, 2013 11:49:19 GMT -6
Completely ethical.
I've helped guys.
Others have helped me.
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Post by fballcoachg on Apr 8, 2013 12:36:51 GMT -6
When I was coaching in HS, our OC had his buddy, a former DC who he worked with at another school, help us gameplan on Sundays, and was on the headset in the box on Friday nights. He never did any coaching of players. I don't think any of our assistants took it as a slap in the face, he was a guy who really knew his stuff, and we were glad to have him along with us that season. (We ended up making it to the State Semi-Finals that year before losing to the eventual state champions) I personally don't see anything unethical about doing it, especially in high school where there are generally no restrictions on coaches. As far as the college game goes, like someone else said, it's just using your resources. It's a totally different matter altogether if you bring in another guy who is an on-the-field coach, but having someone you respect look at some film is just good coaching, and getting another perspective. I think this is different though because it was all season so it was the routine and the way the staff dynamic was set up. Maybe I'm sensitive but I wouldn't handle it too well if I worked all year then the playoffs come around and there is a new guy telling the HC what is what. The timing to me is what is questionable. |
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Post by wingtol on Apr 8, 2013 18:11:09 GMT -6
As far as having someone help break down film I see nothing unethical about that, just another set of eyes to help out. Nothing wrong with someone drawing up plays for you. I have had several guys in our area give us all their scout stuff on other teams both in season and in the playoffs if they lost to a team we played. I would also assume as HUDL continues to take over the world their is more film flying around between coaching friends with one guy saying "hey take a peek and see if you notice anything".
As far as extra guys in the box, been that guy and had guys like that in our box. For us it was mostly just to have an extra set of trust worthy eyes. Just so you can turn around and say "hey did you catch what that guy ran" or "hey keep an eye on #so and so next play".
As far as a HC having and relying on another coach in the box I have only encountered it once that I know of. We were in a state title game against a PA legend in his last year, had a film crew following him the whole season. So when I finally got a copy of the documentary during our title game the guy was on the sets asking what his son Jr. wanted to run. Of course Jr. was a HC at a school in their area and ran the same system. They showed a shot of Jr. in the box on the phones during the game. I thought that was pretty crazy when I saw it and agree I would be pi**ed if I was on that staff. Side note: Jr. is now the DC for the Buffalo Bills so some of you PA guys might know who I am talking about.
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