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Post by coachcb on Jul 5, 2007 14:03:59 GMT -6
It also depends on what kind of environment you're in. When I was coaching HS ball, we had a terrible time with the wing t; because we only saw it once or twice a year. Everyone else ran pro style offenses and a little bit of option.
Our LBs were taught to read the OL, but also to recognize flow. Game after game, the only misdirection we'd see would be a counter trey or a trap out of more pro-oriented offenses.
Then you come against a wing T team and the kids have to completely ignore flow; going to have a tough time. We'd spend a lot of time during the week repping our OL reads against a wing T, but they'd still be looking at the motion and flow.
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Post by wildcat on Jul 5, 2007 15:16:15 GMT -6
Joliet Catholic is one of the top programs in Illinois and they have won 5-6 state titles running the Wing-T.
What about Lew Johnston down in Virginia? How many state championships did his Wing-T teams win?
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Post by brophy on Jul 5, 2007 15:28:05 GMT -6
it gets real old hearing the same things all the time
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Post by knighter on Jul 5, 2007 15:54:10 GMT -6
You may think Wing T is easier to defend...entitled to that for sure. But in my opinon anything that is well executed be it wing t, power i, dbl wing, spread,... does not matter if they execute it is tough to defend.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 5, 2007 18:47:17 GMT -6
I am right there with you knighter. I think it is a pretty poor choice of words to say "the wing t is easier to defend than a balanced attack" because those are two entirely different concepts. The wing-T is an offensive system. Running the ball all the time is an unbalanced attack. The run and shoot is an offensive system. Passing the ball all the time is an unbalanced attack.
[The above statement was edited in an an attempt to be a kinder, gentler coachd5085]
Last year in our area, the Wing T quarterback threw for over 1400 yards, and they had a 600 yard rusher, a 900 yard rusher, and a 800 yard rusher. the Pro I Qb for about 750 with the TB rushing for 1650 , and a spread team with the qb throwing for 1700 and the leading rusher had 350 yards. ........
Yeah....Balance.....
Formations and systems don't dictate balance... coaches, players and game plans do.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 5, 2007 19:50:49 GMT -6
I agree with knighter and coachd-
You're not going to find a whole lot of good wing t packages that don't account for a loaded box. The best wing T team I have ever faced had one of the best quick and PA games I have ever seen. To make matters worse, they ran the option pretty well too......Once again, this came down to good coaching and good game planning.
If you have 9 guys in the box all night, you can expect this crew to run PA boots and waggles 25 times a game- generally for 28+ point too.
Anyone that doubts the effectiveness of the wing t should talk to tothehouse; nasty, nasty attack.
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Post by phantom on Jul 5, 2007 20:11:29 GMT -6
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Post by brophy on Jul 5, 2007 20:14:55 GMT -6
y'know, this thread shouldn't be about "Is the wing-t a legitimate offense" ----- goodness, that is a debate reserved for sports writers and booster clubs.........IT WORKS, OKAY!?
The classification of CULT-LIKE outlooks is what the author was asking.......it could be Wing-T, Flexbone, Bone, Double Wing, Slot-T, etc.......niche offenses (THAT WORK) but have become exclusive philosophies.
stay focussed.
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Post by khalfie on Jul 5, 2007 20:46:06 GMT -6
I knew this one guy who was a Wing T'er... Think he was from Waco Texas or something... coached a team called the Branch Davidians... I thought Clovis was staunch Double Wing? All this... "you can't win with this system"... is crazy talk... This is the year 2007... to this point, every system has had some success. Just look at the uprising of coaches wanting to utilize the system that doesn't even have a QB... But again... I'm just sayin'
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Post by wingman on Jul 5, 2007 21:30:14 GMT -6
Clovis East is a very good double wing. Clovis West was a great Wing T team in the 90s.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 5, 2007 21:33:55 GMT -6
This from the man who can't pass up an opportunity to derail the focus of a thread with an embedded picture or video ;D I think we have addressed the cult ish issue. It is a unique system, and the coaches tend to hang out together since the wing-T and dbl wing don't really mesh well with other systems. So, what ISN'T a niche offense....something you see in the NFL? Why wouldn't that be niche...the are all as similar as the WING or veer, or airraid.... Also, I am interested in why the Wing-T carries a bad rap. The school I just recently left just picked up a new HC. He is going to run the wing-T (the team was previously Pro I based/with some grab bag tendencies--but had been successful) and already all of the local message boards and booster clubs are getting the nooses ready. Why does the wing-t carry that stigma that it is a bad offense that only works in the smaller classes--or against bad defenses? Why, when you see a successful Wing-T offense, it is because "Oh, with talent like that, you could run anything" but when it doesnt work, it is because it is a crappy offensive system?
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Post by coachorr on Jul 5, 2007 22:08:54 GMT -6
What does Bellvue Washington run? And didn't they beat De La Salle? Hmmmmm....
Brophy, great pictures.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Jul 6, 2007 4:29:06 GMT -6
Why does the wing-t carry that stigma that it is a bad offense that only works in the smaller classes--or against bad defenses? Why, when you see a successful Wing-T offense, it is because "Oh, with talent like that, you could run anything" but when it doesnt work, it is because it is a crappy offensive system? D: A lot of this has to do with the psychology of coaching. Given a choice, most of us are lemmings. Hand us loads of talent, great facilities, and a booster club that provides the extras that can grease the skids on the road to success, and what are most coaches going to run? Whatever the most popular offense and defense of the day are. It's the rest of us who are struggling a bit who are willing to branch out a little closer to the edge and look at the Wing-T or Double Wing (or Single Wing, for that matter) rather than the shotgun spread, or on the other side of the ball the 2-Level defense instead of the 3-Stack or the Slide 4-3... No one ran the run and shoot back in the 80's or 90's because everyone else was doing it -- they ran it to equalize their situation against their competition.
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Post by davecisar on Jul 6, 2007 9:31:56 GMT -6
I think many of the "multiple" little bit of everything guys are as dogmatic and aggressive about being multiple as DW, SW, Veer or WingT guys are about staying focused on doing a core set of complementary plays perfectly. See the slams endured by any DW guy that chips in on a thread about using DW, Wing T, SW etc philosophies from the "Multiple" fanatics. The WingT, DW etc guys get made fun of attacked and parodied etc, all the time here.
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Post by tothehouse on Jul 6, 2007 10:29:11 GMT -6
A school in the Stockton area got rid of their HC because he wasn't winning. His record wasn't that bad......turns out the people in the town didn't like the wing-t. Maybe the HC and his staff had too many cult-ish rituals they performed at practice or before games....who knows.
Point here is this...with his ouster imminent he pops this dandy out in the press....
"In the last 3 section title games their has been at least 1 wing t team. In those 3 games twice the wing t team won and the third time the wing t team lost, but scored 45 points in the game (he was referring to our program)".
It still didn't save his job. One earlier poster mentioned the fact that playing a wing t team is hard when you don't see it during the year. In 04 and 05 we were told this by an opposing HC right after we disposed of his team two straight years in the second round of the playoffs. They couldn't find the ball. They didn't see it during the season and then had to deal with it in the playoffs.
Hold your hand out and shake.....the secret handshake of the wingt-ers is still prevalent today.
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yoda1
Sophomore Member
Posts: 216
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Post by yoda1 on Jul 6, 2007 12:13:23 GMT -6
What about the Tony F system those guys are also a cult, and an expensive one too!!!!
Let's not forget the defensive side of the ball cults. Especially the old times and the 5-3 etc...
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Post by jhanawa on Jul 6, 2007 12:37:58 GMT -6
Yeah, but the Wang Tun Gun membership involves chants, snakes and a specialized diet, and our membership criteria is much more modern, plus, we use fingerprint and retina scanners to weed out infiltrators.......
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Post by coachcb on Jul 6, 2007 12:45:40 GMT -6
Let me put it this way; these guys may get cultish with their offenses. But there's a reason behind it; THEY MAKE IT WORK.
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Post by airitout616 on Jul 6, 2007 14:33:11 GMT -6
Yeah I would say the Air Raid and Run N Shoot guys are cultish as well. I think any "system" that is differnt i.e. wing-t, double wing, single wing, veer, air raid, and the run n shoot is cultish becuase the coaches really have to buy into it and go in with both feet to be succesful wich gives a cultish feel. You dont see many of these type of offenses using another type of offense along with there "system" becuase your really have to rep the basic plays with in the "system" to win. And I think all of us coaches know there isnt a unstopable offense any system will work if you bealive in what you do and know it like the back of your hand if its wing-t or air raid who cares as long as you get a W.
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Post by tog on Jul 6, 2007 14:46:08 GMT -6
very astute airitout
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Post by oguru on Jul 6, 2007 14:51:08 GMT -6
I agree with Air it out. Every offensive system is unique especially when thats all a coach uses wint-t,wishbone,Chuck n' duck Spread. Urban Meyer is the leader of my offensive cult, and all you Ohio State Fans know what his offense is capable of doing as well.
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Post by coachjaz on Jul 6, 2007 15:18:42 GMT -6
Whats wrong with the split veer?
To be fair about Bellevue-De La Salle. DLS started that season 2-3-2. Yes Bellevue was the first to beat them, but it wasnt as if DLS went 13-0 the rest of the year.
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Post by tog on Jul 6, 2007 15:24:40 GMT -6
nothing is wrong with the veer guys
everyone has their own experiences with people more culty about things than others though
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Post by coachcb on Jul 6, 2007 16:48:04 GMT -6
coachjaz-
Absolutely nothing wrong with SBV- my favorite offense.
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Post by coachjaz on Jul 6, 2007 18:22:10 GMT -6
I know - I was just giving you guys a hard time. I dont really care what people run, as long as it works for your kids and you are comfortable with it.
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Post by airitout616 on Jul 6, 2007 19:06:54 GMT -6
Just dont drink the Veer Cool-Aid
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Post by coachjaz on Jul 6, 2007 20:07:39 GMT -6
Why not, you do!!
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Post by coachroark on Jul 6, 2007 20:26:38 GMT -6
I just want to know all the secret hand shakes. I know the 3 -3 Stack handshake and secret password, but you Wing T'ers and Double Winger's have done a great job of keeping the code.
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Post by wingman on Jul 6, 2007 21:56:08 GMT -6
There's a lot to be said for being different. 2 years ago we saw 8 shotgun option teams in 12 games. I know it's a great offense but when you see it every week you get better at defending it. We were a fly team and the more teams that jumped on the bandwagon, the more different and difficult to defend we were. It's helped us beat a few teams we had no business beating. One of our lbers asked about game 4, "How do we adjust to 2 backs"? because he had never seen it. Another point is you had better be willing to work your tail off and reduce the learning curve if you change everything or else you get shotgun option teams that have no idea how to protect their Qb.
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